Western Society, Nuclear Arms, CCTV, and other fun stuff

Originally Posted by Lord Zero

You underestimate the power of insanity.

The Soviet Union had Stalin, who was very insane, and there was still never a war. I admit there is a possibility of an even worse person coming along, but in that case most of the world would eliminate them and there would only be a minor controlled nuclear war, rather than the vast one MAD calls for.

You forget the fact that we now (I believe) have clean nuclear bombs that simply burn.

Yes, but the president would want the rebellious states to rejoin the nation at the end of the war. Killing millions of people and destroying vast amounts of infrastructure would be counter productive to that, since that would make the states less willing to join, as well as destroying cities that would be useful to the government once the states rejoined the union.

Originally Posted by Hell Hawk

The Soviet Union had Stalin, who was very insane, and there was still never a war. I admit there is a possibility of an even worse person coming along, but in that case most of the world would eliminate them and there would only be a minor controlled nuclear war, rather than the vast one MAD calls for.

Stalin wasn't insane as he wasn't really a fundamentalist for any particular ideal or otherwise. He was intelligent enough to understand that MAD is a bad thing, whereas certain other dictators may not give a **** since they believe in things like afterlife.

Yes, but the president would want the rebellious states to rejoin the nation at the end of the war. Killing millions of people and destroying vast amounts of infrastructure would be counter productive to that, since that would make the states less willing to join, as well as destroying cities that would be useful to the government once the states rejoined the union.

If the president was so concerned about law and order, then states that would only cause dissent and subversion don't need to be a part of the country and don't need to exist.

Originally Posted by Lord Zero

Stalin wasn't insane as he wasn't really a fundamentalist for any particular ideal or otherwise. He was intelligent enough to understand that MAD is a bad thing, whereas certain other dictators may not give a **** since they believe in things like afterlife.

I suppose you have a point.

If the president was so concerned about law and order, then states that would only cause dissent and subversion don't need to be a part of the country and don't need to exist.

Why would you abandon productive states that could better the nation? Lincoln didn't just let the southern states go, did he?

Originally Posted by Hell Hawk

Why would you abandon productive states that could better the nation? Lincoln didn't just let the southern states go, did he?

The Civil War was easily won by the North, since they were apparently fighting with one hand behind their back the entire time. Why nuke them when you can get them back easily? Why get them back if they're a total lost cause?

Originally Posted by Lord Zero

The Civil War was easily won by the North, since they were apparently fighting with one hand behind their back the entire time. Why nuke them when you can get them back easily? Why get them back if they're a total lost cause?

Yeah, once Lincoln found some capable, competent generals, the North started kicking butt and taking names. Before, he managed to hire village idiots to become the generals and Lee wiped the proverbial floor with them.

So had Lincoln not gotten Grant and Sherman to be the top guys, I think the South could have won the war. They came pretty darn close in some battles (re: Battle of Bull Run I. Had they not been tired, they would have charged straight into DC)

So to win a war, you also have to pick the right guys who won't

a) embarrass your country by making retarded decisions

b) cause the war to go longer than needed (McClellan has had NUMEROUS chances to end the war right then and there, especially in Antietam, but thanks to his incompetence, the war was to go on).

As to why Lincoln wanted to get the South back if they were a lost cause? Because he believed in a unified nation and would accept nothing else.

Originally Posted by Link the Zora

Yeah, once Lincoln found some capable, competent generals, the North started kicking butt and taking names. Before, he managed to hire village idiots to become the generals and Lee wiped the proverbial floor with them.

So had Lincoln not gotten Grant and Sherman to be the top guys, I think the South could have won the war. They came pretty darn close in some battles (re: Battle of Bull Run I. Had they not been tired, they would have charged straight into DC)

So to win a war, you also have to pick the right guys who won't

a) embarrass your country by making retarded decisions

b) cause the war to go longer than needed (McClellan has had NUMEROUS chances to end the war right then and there, especially in Antietam, but thanks to his incompetence, the war was to go on).

One of my mates showed me some sources for his course where these historians basically made the claim that there was no way the South could ever have won the war, because as I said, the entire time the North was only using one hand to fight. If the South had ever actually mobilized or become troublesome, the North could have just pulled the other hand out and swept them away, but they didn't need to, so they didn't just pile into them and waste resources.

Originally Posted by Lord Zero

One of my mates showed me some sources for his course where these historians basically made the claim that there was no way the South could ever have won the war, because as I said, the entire time the North was only using one hand to fight. If the South had ever actually mobilized or become troublesome, the North could have just pulled the other hand out and swept them away, but they didn't need to, so they didn't just pile into them and waste resources.

Ah, I see what you're saying. The South would not have won the war due to the fact that they had low supply and their economy was messed up. The only way they'd have a chance of victory was if they pulled a Colonial America on the Union and nabbed themselves an ally that would be willing to help them.