A Religion Theory (help)

^ I admire your trying to make peace here, but I don't think these people don't get along; we are just discussing a controversial topic, and throwing all our ideas out to try and weed out what doesn't make sense. I mean, to many people, these beliefs are their entire life...

Originally Posted by Forgotten Queen

So, enough. You all are making total idiots of yourself. We are asking each other questions that only atheistic and theistic experts can answer. We all have different opinions and quit being so damn biased and forceful and religiously and atheistically imperialistic. Just get along with each other. It really is not that hard, you know.

That's how you completely wimp out of a discussion. So if you don't want to take part, stop. Don't blast us and then stop, because you're being idiotic yourself by doing so.

I know many atheists who are the nicest people. And I know many theists who aren't of my religion who are the same.

Why does that seem condescending to me? Maybe I'm just reading too far into that.

Originally Posted by Black_Mamba

I agree that it is very improbable that opinions will be moved, but it's not your place to come in here and mediate. Some of us really do enjoy these discussion. If you don't, why not remove yourself?

This. Nobody is going to change their opinions most likely, but it may be that some will realize how friggin' stupid theirs is. There's always a chance of that. We're here to discuss, not convert people.

Um, all we are doing is arguing, not debating. Enjoyable? I think not.

Maybe all you're doing is arguing...

Even if that is so, that IS NOT the purpose of this thread.

Discussion of Heaven and Hell is not the purpose of this thread?
Then, pray tell, what is?

Originally Posted by __Link__

^No.

According to most theistic religions this is what that means:

If someone is a devil worshiper or an atheist at THEIR OWN CHOICE AND FAULT, they shall not be pardoned unless they convert back to God. However, if someone is an atheist or devil worshiper NOT BY THEIR OWN CHOICE OR FAULT, they shall be judged on their actions in life to determine their fate.

So basically you're saying just what the "person" on the last page said, you just have a bit lower limit for par.

Originally Posted by Forgotten Queen

Secondly, Tonchiki, it is true that God shall punish those who reject God. God will not pardon those who "at their own fault" turn away from God. And quit saying that we are only talking about ONE religion here. We are talking about the whole of theism.

Define "at their own fault". I'm aware you are a believer, is that enough?

Originally Posted by Forgotten Queen

Here is the bottom line........

Theists and atheists will never understand each other for they are contradicting forces 100% of the time.

I get better along with Rew, who is a devout Christian, than plenty of atheists on ZU.

edit: derail
I'll chill out a bit until it's a bit on track

I couldn't disagree more with u saying that all Religions are a like. But to get to the point, as a Christian I believe that it's the only way to get to heaven (or what ever u call it). It might seem cruel to some but it's just how I think.

^ At least you're self-aware.

...You know, I don't want to go to Heaven if it's full of people like that.

Originally Posted by The impulsive L

I couldn't disagree more with u saying that all Religions are a like. But to get to the point, as a Christian I believe that it's the only way to get to heaven (or what ever u call it). It might seem cruel to some but it's just how I think.

If heaven is full of people who think like you, I'd rather go to hell, yeah.

Originally Posted by Zeruda

I couldn't really choose any of the poll options. Has anybody else ever head the saying, "The way to heaven is not paved with virtues"? In my own beliefs, you could be a very, very good person who always does the right thing, but if you don't believe in God, you don't get to go to heaven.

well, this could make sense, depending on what you think Heaven is and where you think people who don't go to Heaven end up. If Heaven is just a place to hang out for all the theists in the world and sing worship songs all day, I don't want to be there anyway. If Hell is just a place for all the atheists to hang out and play death metal all day, I guess I'd be all right with that too.

but assuming you think Heaven is perfect reward and Hell is infinite punishment, and that everyone who doesn't go to Heaven (as you put it, everyone who doesn't believe in God) goes to Hell, you must worship a terrible and evil God. The fact that you believe a good person, or even the most selfless and righteous person in the world, could suffer for eternity is appalling. No one, not even the most evil person in the world, could possibly deserve infinite suffering. If God sends even one person to Hell, even the worst person imaginable, God is infinitely more evil than anyone else.

infinite punishment is infinitely evil and infinitely unjust.

It makes sense to me, really. Why let somebody into your kingdom if they shunned you?

wait a minute, what? "Not believing in" and "shunning" are not the same thing at all. If God wants people to believe in him, all he has to do is show himself. I don't "shun" God anymore than I "shun" unicorns or dragons. I mean, dragons are cool, why would I shun them? I just don't believe they exist—I mean, how could I? There isn't any reason too; no evidence at all, not a shred.

Originally Posted by __Link__

Are you all seriously this stupid?

You all are forgetting the most importanty fact about God: GOD IS A JUST GOD.

if God is just he must deal punishment equal to the crime. No person can commit an infinite crime and therefore no person can deserve an infinite punishment. A God who deals infinite punishment to anyone is infinitely unjust—more unjust than anyone else could possibly be, making God the least just being in the Universe.

This means that he will save those who deserve to be saved and banish those who deserve to be banished.

no one, no finite person who has committed finite deeds, deserves to be punished for eternity. Doing so would be infinitely unjust.

By the way, don't look for any agreeing between the theists and atheists for it is pointless.

the only thing theists and atheists necessarily disagree on is whether or not a god exists. By definition, theists do and atheists don't. They can agree on everything else.

However, I must say that you all are asking such stupid debate questions that aren't even logical. God is just, and God will send those who can enter Heaven to Heaven, and those who deserve Hell shall go to Hell to be tortured for eternity by the devil.

again you contradict yourself; infinite punishment is infinitely unjust. God cannot be just at the same time as he tortures people for eternity. Any god who sent anyone to eternal torture and torment would be the most evil being imaginable; infinitely more evil than anything else ever (unless the devil is also infinitely evil, making him equal in evilness to God I suppose).

Originally Posted by __Link__

Okay, here is what I personally feel:

God is not going to judge you by what religion you are; God will judge you by how you were in life.

Now, "deserving Hell" means many things. Among these things are the following:

1.) commiting of mortal sin and not caring
2.) devil worship
3.) rejecting God
4.) not aiding anyone in your life and only caring about yourself
5.) denying God at your own fault and never feeling sorry for it
6.) others......

interesting thing I noticed about this list. None of these actions are or can possibly be infinite. Therefore, no one who commits any or even all of these things can deserve an infinite punishment in return. That would be completely unfair and not just at all.

Originally Posted by __Link__

Tonchiki, you can't understand apparently. If you deserve Hell you are going there. Now stop making this thread a stupid "does God exist?" ordeal. We obviously are not going to agree so everyone shut the **** up about God's existence!!!!!

as I've already established, however, it is impossible to deserve Hell. No one can commit enough sin to deserve Hell. I could sin my entire life and still not deserve an infinite punishment because my life is not infinite! Eighty or ninety years of sin cannot deserve an eternity of punishment!

Originally Posted by Forgotten Queen

All I have to say to all of you is simply, WOW. You all are sooooo blind. In my opinion, all theists except devil theists are following the same God, but they have different views of God.

so why are "devil theists" singled out here? I mean, what if my god happens to be who you call "Satan"? How is that any different than me worshiping Thor, the god of thunder?

Secondly, Tonchiki, it is true that God shall punish those who reject God. God will not pardon those who "at their own fault" turn away from God. And quit saying that we are only talking about ONE religion here. We are talking about the whole of theism.

The clue for you is the phrase "at your own fault." Link is not trying to say that because you aren't his religion you are going to Hell. He is saying that God will make the right decision to banish those and save those who deserve it.

so if it isn't my fault that I don't think God exists, I can still go to Heaven?

well that's wonderful! I was afraid you were trying to condemn me to Hell or something. It couldn't possibly be my fault that God won't let me know he exists, so I should be fine.

Originally Posted by Forgotten Queen

^Once again, read my post above yours.

Oh and by the way, most Christians do not feel that way.

are you "most Christians"? Do you know "most Christians"? I don't think you can speak for "most Christians."

I don't think it's terribly off-topic or "stupid" to debate what grants you entrance to Heaven and what damns you eternally to Hell.

If you think that in some way every theist is worshiping the same "god," how is that possible? The reason each religion is different is because they believe conflicting things. For example, one of the ten commandments states that only one true god should be worshiped, so does that mean that all polytheists are damned to hell? Or do you just have to believe in some kind of supreme being(s) to gain entrance to heaven/paradise/etc? Are all of the good deeds you do in life really worthless if you lack faith in god(s)? How could any one single person in the world commit such a crime that would be worth infinite suffering in Hell?

I'm assuming that when you say "at their own fault" you mean that someone has been introduced to the idea of a higher power and did not believe in said higher power (that's how I've heard it defined anyway, correct me if I'm wrong please). This would excuse those who have lived completely in ignorance of the idea or concept of god(s), but would state that those who had come into contact with the idea of faith in a higher power and saw no reason to believe would be damned. So when would someone have to accept the idea of a god? Will every person that dies be brought before him/her/them when they die? If a person still denies his/her/their existence once he/she/they have revealed themselves to the deceased person, is that when it is determined "at their own fault"? Why wouldn't god be understanding of skepticism in a world that is so void of evidence of his/her/their existence?

Personally, I'd like to think that everyone could get into heaven if there is one. That means those that do believe and those that do not. Maybe there would be a brief stay in purgatory (preferably an actual place of cleansing and purification rather than suffering) to make up for any sins you committed during life...that seems a lot more suitable than Hell ever could be. I would like to think that if there is a god, he'd be loving enough to accept everyone, otherwise I'd be hesitant to worship, love, and be with him in my afterlife. If heaven is ruled by an unloving god who cannot accept or understand where it is I am coming from (in regard to my skepticism) despite his omniscience, then I suppose I'd prefer to go elsewhere in my afterlife.

Originally Posted by Danger

You're the stereotype of a person I cannot ever, ever respect, not even if you saved my life or the lives of everyone I loved. Not only are you metaphorically telling me to ♥♥♥♥ off by telling me that I will suffer eternally (which, by the way, is much worse of an insult than me telling you that you should "♥♥♥♥ing die"), you are also disrespecting your supreme being by claiming he's a malevolent ass who throws people into hell for anything from being born in the wrong country to being an infant (people are born atheists, technically) to being a vegetable.



Your religion isn't even the oldest, get off the soapbox.

Whoa there, Wilson!
You've totally taken my words way out of context and twisted them beyond their original meaning! Whether or not my religion is old or new doesn't matter- in fact, you have no idea what my religion actually is. I never said my god is an ass, nor did I ever imply it. I never said I thought non-believers would burn for eternity or anything like that. You assumed it, didn't you? Yes you did. :>

I don't push my relgion on anybody, and I was only throwing a small, personal belief out into the discussion- it's a personal belief not even associated with my religion, yet you turn jackass and assume that it is and personally attack me and my religion? I don't rage all over you just because you don't believe the same thing I do, now do I?

You say that you could never respect me even though you hardly know me and don't know more than one, tiny aspect of my beliefs. Really? If that is the way you are going to be, then whether or not I have your respect is of little concern to me. People who lash out at others because of a difference in beliefs are people who contribute to unfounded hatred. People like that cause unnecessary wars. Really, if you're going to come to a thread about religion in a "serious discussion" section, you should really expect a lot of different opinions. If you can't handle that, don't bother participating in the discussion. You should practice being a little more open-minded, less assuming, and less judgemental, mmkay punkin? :>

Originally Posted by Lysis

but assuming you think Heaven is perfect reward and Hell is infinite punishment, and that everyone who doesn't go to Heaven (as you put it, everyone who doesn't believe in God) goes to Hell, you must worship a terrible and evil God. The fact that you believe a good person, or even the most selfless and righteous person in the world, could suffer for eternity is appalling. No one, not even the most evil person in the world, could possibly deserve infinite suffering. If God sends even one person to Hell, even the worst person imaginable, God is infinitely more evil than anyone else.

infinite punishment is infinitely evil and infinitely unjust.

I never said I thought that those who don't believe would go to hell- it's not that black and white to me. Who says I do or don't believe "hell" even exists/will exist? I think you're assuming that since I believe in God, then I must be a Christian or something, and I must believe what so many other Christians believe, when it's not that way at all.


I didn't think what I posted would get so horribly twisted, so let me make my own belief a little clearer:
I believe in "God", and I believe in Heaven. I also have a religion that is a personal mish-mashed choice of multiple religions, since I find flaws in religion. I don't believe everything I'm taught- I come to my own conclusions.

Yes, I believe that the only way into Heaven is to be a believer and to truly love God. No, I do not believe non-believers will go to "Hell". I believe that good non-believers will simply remain on Earth while evil people (rapists, terrorists, serial killers, yougetthepoint) will be destroyed, and those who made an effort to get into Heaven will be rewarded. I do not think God, who I believe to be the most loving being, would destroy good people. I also don't believe that "Heaven" is an eternal thing- I believe that a new Earth will be created for those who made it into Heaven.

I don't know many other people with this belief or one similar, but I have met a few here and there. I understand very well that many others believe differently, and I have no problem with that.

^ So then you're basically saying there's no Hell, and Heaven is just God's clubhouse for his favorite peeps?
Alright then, that I don't care about. Although I still don't care for the implication that those who believe in God are the best kind of "good", as opposed to anyone else.

EDIT: But you cannot seriously expect to come into a discussion about Heaven and Hell, say that to get into Heaven you have to believe in God, and NOT expect to be taken as if saying non-believers would go to Hell. Come on.

Originally Posted by Tonchiki

^ So then you're basically saying there's no Hell, and Heaven is just God's clubhouse for his favorite peeps?
Alright then, that I don't care about. Although I still don't care for the implication that those who believe in God are the best kind of "good", as opposed to anyone else.

EDIT: But you cannot seriously expect to come into a discussion about Heaven and Hell, say that to get into Heaven you have to believe in God, and NOT expect to be taken as if saying non-believers would go to Hell. Come on.

More like, not really a Hell, since I believe Satan will stay where he was cast down (Earth, in my belief). I guess "clubhouse" is a term you could use for Heaven, but really, I see Heaven as more of a resort- a place to pass the time while the new Earth is being made. Non-believers, in my belief, stay in this current Earth, while those who made an effort get a new Earth (and new bodies) as a reward, and the cycle will continue. I don't mean to imply that believers are the "best kind of good" as you put it. I just believe that people who make an effort to get into Heaven get that reward. It's not like the non-believers would suffer or anything. Ultimately, it's a cycle-thing, and when/if the cycle ever ends, I am not sure. Yes, I believe in past lives.

Originally Posted by Zeruda

while those who made an effort get a new Earth (and new bodies) as a reward, and the cycle will continue.

Made an effort towards what?

I don't mean to imply that believers are the "best kind of good" as you put it.

Yet you do, by saying that those that don't believe in God somehow aren't "making an effort".

I just believe that people who make an effort to get into Heaven get that reward. It's not like the non-believers would suffer or anything.

Okay, but it depends on what Heaven you're talking about, since everyone's concept is different. If you're saying that everyone who makes an effort in their respective religions gets what they're working towards in the end, that's a lot different than saying "people that believe in God get rewarded, as opposed to people who don't".

Let's cool things off a bit, yah?

Originally Posted by Tonchiki

Made an effort towards what?

Towards getting into Heaven (whatever they call it).

Originally Posted by Tonchiki

Yet you do, by saying that those that don't believe in God somehow aren't "making an effort".

Then I apologize for giving you the wrong impression. :>

Originally Posted by Tonchiki

Okay, but it depends on what Heaven you're talking about, since everyone's concept is different. If you're saying that everyone who makes an effort in their respective religions gets what they're working towards in the end, that's a lot different than saying "people that believe in God get rewarded, as opposed to people who don't".

And that's where different interpretations come into play, and that's why I come to my own conclusions, even if they differ from what I read or am taught. Basically, I personally believe that people who believe in God (or whatever they call it) get into Heaven (or whatever they call it). Others think differently. I'm fine with that.

Originally Posted by Zeruda

I never said I thought that those who don't believe would go to hell- it's not that black and white to me. Who says I do or don't believe "hell" even exists/will exist? I think you're assuming that since I believe in God, then I must be a Christian or something, and I must believe what so many other Christians believe, when it's not that way at all.

I was just making an assumption, like I stated quite clearly. I didn't know what you actually believed or did not believe because you did not specify.

Originally Posted by Zeruda

Whoa there, Wilson!

sup

Originally Posted by Zeruda

Whether or not my religion is old or new doesn't matter-

Originally Posted by Zeruda

history gets twisted, etc.

History cannot twist itself backwards.

Originally Posted by Zeruda

in fact, you have no idea what my religion actually is.

Irrelevant; your religion isn't the oldest anyway.

Originally Posted by Zeruda

I never said my god is an ass, nor did I ever imply it.

Yeah, taking only some believers into heaven regardless if the person in question is good or not; that's not being an ass.

Originally Posted by Zeruda

I never said I thought non-believers would burn for eternity or anything like that. You assumed it, didn't you? Yes you did. :>

Of course, my post can also be used metaphorically. You assumed I always mean it literally, didn't you? Yes you did. :>

Originally Posted by Zeruda

I don't push my relgion on anybody, and I was only throwing a small, personal belief out into the discussion

Just like me not pushing my nonreligion, and throwing a small, personal belief that it's being a rude jackass telling someone that they are not welcome in the manner religion does.

Originally Posted by Zeruda

it's a personal belief not even associated with my religion, yet you turn jackass and assume that it is and personally attack me and my religion?

Where did I attack your religion?

Originally Posted by Zeruda

I don't rage all over you just because you don't believe the same thing I do, now do I?

I'm not the one condemning people here.

Originally Posted by Zeruda

You say that you could never respect me even though you hardly know me and don't know more than one, tiny aspect of my beliefs. Really?

Yes really, unless of course your definition of "heaven" is equal or worse to the definition of "hell". I can safely assume you don't mean it this way, so my point stands until you say the contradicting.

Originally Posted by Zeruda

If that is the way you are going to be, then whether or not I have your respect is of little concern to me.

Don't worry, respect is earned, not given.

Originally Posted by Zeruda

People who lash out at others because of a difference in beliefs are people who contribute to unfounded hatred.

I personally couldn't give a damn about your "personal beliefs". It's when you condemn other people, that we might have reached a boiling point.

Originally Posted by Zeruda

People like that cause unnecessary wars.

You go down a street here and tell everyone that they are not welcome to heaven and will go to hell. Please do.

Originally Posted by Zeruda

Really, if you're going to come to a thread about religion in a "serious discussion" section, you should really expect a lot of different opinions. If you can't handle that, don't bother participating in the discussion.

I can say the exact same thing to you. You think I won't go to heaven, I think you're chauvinistic. We can agree to disagree, simply.

Originally Posted by Zeruda

You should practice being a little more open-minded, less assuming, and less judgemental

Of course, this is completely irrelevant. However, as soon as I convert to a religion that condemns people, you are free to make the same statement.

Originally Posted by Zeruda

mmkay punkin? :>

Don't bother with the patronizing where it's not applicable.

Originally Posted by Zeruda

I never said I thought that those who don't believe would go to hell- it's not that black and white to me. Who says I do or don't believe "hell" even exists/will exist?

Considering you'd rather take pedophile religious into heaven than someone who hasn't even committed the smallest sin? Yeah, I'd rather dine in hell in that case.

Originally Posted by Zeruda

I think you're assuming that since I believe in God, then I must be a Christian or something, and I must believe what so many other Christians believe, when it's not that way at all.

Of course, while I won't forbid you to assume this, it's still extremely wrong to do so. Not wrong in the moral sense, but wrong as in "faulty, false, failure".

Originally Posted by Zeruda

I didn't think what I posted would get so horribly twisted, so let me make my own belief a little clearer:
I believe in "God", and I believe in Heaven. I also have a religion that is a personal mish-mashed choice of multiple religions, since I find flaws in religion. I don't believe everything I'm taught- I come to my own conclusions.

This above is what I define "personal belief". I have no qualms with it.

Originally Posted by Zeruda

Yes, I believe that the only way into Heaven is to be a believer and to truly love God. No, I do not believe non-believers will go to "Hell". I believe that good non-believers will simply remain on Earth while evil people (rapists, terrorists, serial killers, yougetthepoint) will be destroyed

This above is what I define as

Originally Posted by Danger

You're the stereotype of a person I cannot ever, ever respect

Because there's so many wrongs in your "just" belief that it's unbelievable.

Originally Posted by Zeruda

I do not think God, who I believe to be the most loving being, would destroy good people.

More often than not, do murderers, for example, have a reason for what they do.

Originally Posted by Zeruda

I also don't believe that "Heaven" is an eternal thing- I believe that a new Earth will be created for those who made it into Heaven.

It's already been done before in South Africa - it's called apartheid.



Hopefully this is the last post I have to make regarding this matter in this tone, in respect for John.

Originally Posted by Forgotten Queen

So, enough. You all are making total idiots of yourself. We are asking each other questions that only atheistic and theistic experts can answer. We all have different opinions and quit being so damn biased and forceful and religiously and atheistically imperialistic. Just get along with each other. It really is not that hard, you know.

So you're trying to play peacemaker by building yourself up as everyone else's moral superior? No, they don't have to shut their mouths, they don't have to leave it to the experts, they don't have to agree on everything. That kind of thinking, that apathy, is what weakens society to begin with. You are pissed because someone has points out logical flaws in all of Christianity, so you want it to stop so you can go back into your happy little world where everyone thinks alike and your ideas are all encompassing.

In all honesty, most people that I know of and myself that are atheist became that way after reading and studying scripture. Hell, I was in LDS seminary for 4 years, and I have read the king james version of the bible several times for my own personal interests. To say that a belief in the god of the old and the new testament is illogical is an understatement.

And Zeruda, expecting people to remain calm while you claim that a **** ton of people on this board are going to hell is rather childish.

Alright. So I guess my question wasn't interesting.

But this thread is still a mess. And I want to save it.

Let's take a step back: you're discussing whether people from non-christian religions (and even virtuous pagans!) get into heaven; this is basically what was asked to begin with.

But I want us to think critically about the question being addressed: what are the implications of saying that a hindu, buddhist, jew, or other religious person whose religion does not claim the existence of heaven -- will enter the christian heaven upon death?

Is this actual acceptance of religious difference? Or is it a neo-colonialist attempt to subvert religious beliefs other than your own, a reduction of non-christian faiths to whichever elements resemble christianity, deliberately ignoring -- even forcefully discarding -- those that are in conflict?


Putting it another way: in an attempt to unify every religion in the world, is there room for Heaven? Do you go with the majority opinion on each theological question in hope of a coherent whole? Or perhaps would you discard all conflicting beliefs, leaving questions unanswered except where there's unanimity [I think there'd be nothing left based on the long list we're working with, but you'd have real agreements between, for instance, the abrahamic religions, or Buddhism and christianity alone, or a number of other possible combinations.]