|
|||
|
Re: Benelovant omnipotence and the problem of Evil
Quote:
lysis: He does but you have to choose to follow him. If he just made himself completly known then everybody would follow him without question but is that because they believe he is the creator or are they afraid of him?[/QUOTE] People "follow" him in fear now. The basis of basically everybody's faith is fear of death, whether physical or eternal, or whatever metaphor you use. That is what most religion is, hope for eternal life. Because nobody knows God, or can even say they know he exists (with complete honesty), NO ONE can say they love him, know him, or are even following him. Why the hell would God want people to be decided over whether he created the universe or not? The only reason he created humans is so there would be someone to praise him. If this God actually cared about any of us, he wouldn't hide from us to see if we blindly follow something someone said that someone said that someone said that someone said that someone said that someone said that someone said that someone said that someone said that someone said that someone said that someone said that someone said that someone said that someone said that someone said that someone wrote someone said that someone said that someone said that someone said that God supposedly did. Does anyone else see how this doesn't make sense? Please? edit- and Oni Link I'm not trying to be a jerk to you or anything, I have nothing against you. I just get riled up about this stuff, haha |

|
||||
|
Re: Benelovant omnipotence and the problem of Evil
you said that he sits back and lets people stumble through life and suffer through unnecessary pain without ever lifting a finger to help.
|

| Advertisement |
|
|||
|
Re: Benelovant omnipotence and the problem of Evil
Lysis: Wait what? Okay let me rephrase what I meant. I suppose I shouldn't say he does nothing. Haven't you ever heard that he speaks to you and tries to tell you what is right without actually telling you? Anyway if he just told us all the answers than we would be completly dependent on him but he doesn't want that. He wants us to be able to accomplish things ourselves and prove our ability to coexist peacefully and such. So no it's not like he wants to punish us but he doesn't want to just guide us right through life.
|

|
|||||||||||
|
Re: Benelovant omnipotence and the problem of Evil
Quote:
Quote:
at least you aren't of the type that says everyone who doesn't believe in God goes to Hell for eternal punishment, because then I'd really have something to say about this. If God specifically makes himself hard to find and then punishes those who can't find him, well, I hope you can see why I would have a problem with that. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
edit: incidentally, this last part of my post is directly related to the actual thread topic, so consider it my main response to the OP and a question not just to ODL here but to anyone who believes God exists and is actually good. |

| Advertisement |
|
|||
|
Re: Benelovant omnipotence and the problem of Evil
I wasn't exactly talking about the conscious I was making more of a reference to things that seem like signs that are meant to save you. For instance a friend of mine was going to board a plane once but the night before he had a terrible dream about a plane crash. The next day the plane he was supposed to get on crashed into one of the twin towers.
Like I said you have to learn to trust him and listen to what he is trying to tell you. As for murders, violence, etc. I actually believe that part of it increasing is because of Aeitheism. Not to insult your beliefs but if people don't have a set of morals, commandments, etc. to follow then what is there to keep them off the path of evil? I'm not saying all aetheists are inevitably going to wind up as violent psychos but some do. Conversely religion can cause people to do crazy things(Al Qaeda anyone?) but not all religions are like that nowadays. Precisely which proves my point that he wants us to succeed on our own. It reminds me of a saying, "The Lord helps those who help themselves." First off the definition of Benevolence: 1.disposition to do good 2.an act of kindness 3.a generous gift. Okay now that I've defined it here's my opinion on the matter. So according to the definition a benevolent being is one that is kind and tries to do good. Okay now you want to know why he is good but also allows evil things to happen? Well doesn't this tie back to the whole thing about how he wants us to figure it out for ourselves? God is a being that loves all. Hitler, Osama, he loved all of them. Moreover he does not preach his message directly to us. In his stead he has sent numerous prophets and such like Moses, Joan of Arc, and even his own son to try and preach a message of peace. Some might even consider more recent people like Martin Luther Kin prophets of peace. For were god to simply reach done and erase all evil then he would be denying mankind the ability to grow and truly appreciate his message because we would not become a people of peace willingly. Only by looking at the faults we possess and working to correct them ourselves can we truly become enlightened and worthy of his grand desire. It was stated once "For God so loved the world he gave his only son." He gave his only son and allowed him to suffer to cleanse the sins of humanity and try to lead by example. |

|
|||
|
Re: Benelovant omnipotence and the problem of Evil
^ Woah... hahaha.
As cool as it sounds that your friend had the dream and avoided catastrophe, it was just a coincidence. Why would God save one insignificant person from a plane crash, and allow millions of other people to die horrible deaths everywhere else in the world? And as for the prophets. Why would God send prophets if he wanted us to blindly follow him? And if it is true he actually wants us to know he's real, or to tell us something, why can't he tell us himself? I still don't get that. Why is it so important to this God that he remain a secret? People knowing he existed wouldn't cause everyone to automatically jump to his side I'm sure, and even if they did, they would do it out of free will. Him showing himself to his people is different than controlling their minds. Honestly if he came out right now, and it turns out Christianity was true all along, I'd hopelessly try and fight against him. He's kind of a dick. He seems to WANT "evil" to exist and also seems to WANT to send a bunch of people to Hell. As for Jesus's "sacrifice." People die worse deaths all the time. And Jesus rose from the dead 2 days later. There was no real sacrifice, he lost absolutely nothing. Not that I wish this on him, but a real sacrifice would be for him to have gone to Hell... for good, in place of us, not to go through what every single one of us eventually goes through and then painlessly go on up to heaven. |

| Advertisement |
|
||||||||
|
Re: Benelovant omnipotence and the problem of Evil
Quote:
Quote:
secondly, most atheists do in fact have a set of morals and commandments to "keep them off the path of evil." Morals are part of virtually every human, through the evolution of the mind and behavior, as well as through the structure of society itself. There are plenty of moral philosophies that do not require the belief in a deity. for instance, I believe that "good" is anything that causes more benefit than harm and "evil" is anything that causes more harm than good. I believe that people should strive to be good, rather than evil. I believe, in fact, that people should strive for the greatest good, that is, the greatest benefit to the greatest amount of people possible. I don't believe, however, in a god who will punish me if I fail at these morals. as for commandments, well, most atheists still follow the law of the country they live in. The law is, for the most part, designed to keep the peace. Quote:
the fact that most people in the world are theists, however, means that there is almost certainly a greater number of crazy, violent, evil theists than atheists. There is no correlation, as far as anyone has found, between atheism and evil. Despite popular religious belief. well, unless your definition of "evil" includes "not believing in my god," in which case I guess there is a direct correlation, but I hope you know what I mean. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
how is it, then, that he can be called good? Quote:
and I don't know about you, but I would sure appreciate a god who saved the world from evil and suffering. Quote:
|

|
||||
|
Re: Benelovant omnipotence and the problem of Evil
I think the fact that people suffer is much less important than the fact that some people suffer way more than others. Bad things happen to good people. Why does one person deserve cancer while another doesn't? It has absolutely nothing to do with free will, because it's not a choice. It just happens, and God clearly does nothing to prevent it. I just don't see how you could possibly reconcile omnibenevolence with watching people suffer and doing nothing about it when you easily could save them. That's not how you treat someone you love. If God exists, he cannot be all-loving.
Quote:
__________________
|

| Advertisement |
|
|||

|
|||
|
Re: Benelovant omnipotence and the problem of Evil
I must note that I'm not particularly fond of the cancer analogy. People seem to think that victims contact cancer "just because", when the condition is actually the result of genetic inheritance and growth environment; it's not just a coincidence.
Also, although I'm not exactly atheist (although people love to throw agnostics into that mix, which I cringe towards), I should note that I find the "atheists have no sense of morals" to be rather absurd. TV Tropes' article on atheism will surmise things better for me... Quote:
|

| Advertisement |
|
||||
|
Re: Benelovant omnipotence and the problem of Evil
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
also, not to make you cringe or anything, but agnostics who are not theists (do not believe in a deity) are atheists whether they like it or not. Agnostic atheist, weak atheist, implicit atheist, etc. You don't have to say "I do not believe in God" or "I believe God does not exist" to be an atheist, you just have to not be a theist. just a bit of semantics for you. It doesn't really matter. It's just that, in the same sense, I tend to cringe when people assume atheism requires positive belief or explicit claims, when in reality, it's just a simple lack of belief. In fact, it is the "default setting," so to speak, since no one is born with enough understanding to be a theist and anyone who isn't a theist is an atheist. |

|
||||
|
Re: Benelovant omnipotence and the problem of Evil
Quote:
But that's really irrelevant, because my whole point was that cancer is not in your control. You don't choose your parents.
__________________
|

| Advertisement |
|
||||

|
||||
|
Re: Benelovant omnipotence and the problem of Evil
I'd argue that a being restricted to our laws isn't as much a god as a simply powerful being. When I think of God, I think of a being that has complete control over physical laws, as well as implied laws such as time and space. He doesn't have to be completely knowing/loving/present but should demonstrate a profound authority and presence.
|

| Advertisement |
|
|||
|
Re: Benelovant omnipotence and the problem of Evil
Quote:
Becoming a self made people of peace. The bible never sepcifically says but considering Jesus loved all and always tried to do the right thing I would assume god does as well. I would imagine he does some things to teach us lessons or test us but even if they're bad they're out of love. You could says he's directly responsible for everything. Now how do we know this wasn't the devil's work?(Yes I've decided to bring the devil into this because if we're gonna argue good and evil actions he should probably be a part of it) Who God? What defines good for you? If a being is pure hearted and tries to guide his people however indirectly how is he not good? Have you not read Genesis? We were until we ate from the apple. While that is not actually how if happened I believe that something about us occurred when we became an intelligence species and could make choices that were good or bad. Also depending on whether or not you do think he had anything to do with the flood in Noah's Ark then he already did that. Only by embracing God can we be saved. Not even God just embrace other people help your fellow man. Then we will be saved This is why I decided to bring the devil into it because logically he would be the cause of the majority of pain and strife in the world. |

|
|||
|
Re: Benelovant omnipotence and the problem of Evil
^ What does Satan do? I think all the "evil" in the world can be accounted for through human actions, not the work of yet another secret deity. If Satan existed, why would he be hiding? You'd think he would be out actually doing stuff instead of "making people do bad things."
|

| Advertisement |
|
|||||
|
Re: Benelovant omnipotence and the problem of Evil
that's coming along just great, I see.
Quote:
that's right, God. God is responsible for the devil's actions as well. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|

|
|||
|
Re: Benelovant omnipotence and the problem of Evil
Quote:
God put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden as a test also, to see if Adam and Eve would obey God or disobey Him. Of course God already knew what was going to happen. And don't ask why; He is God and can do whatever the heck he wants. Think of it this way: Think of a "Do Not Press" button. They are made, even knowing that someone will press it out of curiousity. Even though it could be a disaster because they know someone will press the button, they still make them. In response to the Noah's Flood and murdering almost everyone, everyone on Earth was corrupt with sin and turning away from the Lord. They were fully and totally evil. However Noah found favor within the Lord. Let me ask you this: How can you deny the Old Testament when we have found many artifacts that back up a lot of the Old Testament? And many athiests see the Bible as a "history" book of sorts (metaphorical), but some of the things in the Bible, no historian would have written about, because it would not have been important. However it was important to our faith, and therefore cannot be just a metaphorical history book. |

| Advertisement |
|
|||||||
|
Re: Benelovant omnipotence and the problem of Evil
Quote:
think about it. If you were completely capable of stopping a serial killer from killing, but didn't, would you be good? Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
also, I'm sure all those poor children and babies that didn't make it on the Ark (that would be, incidentally, all of them) were just as fully and totally evil as everyone else? Quote:
Quote:
|

|
|||
|
Re: Benelovant omnipotence and the problem of Evil
Quote:
God gives humans the free will, to make whatever choice they want, whether it be good or bad. He knows there are people who won't follow Him, not because He made them that way, but because there are people out there naive to the fact of Him. There wasn't any violence during the flood! We all have what is called Inherited Sin, which would be sin passed down since the beginning of our existence, because Adam and Eve sinned against the Lord by disobeying Him. Of course God didn't want Adam and Eve to fail, but He gave them free will and had to test them. He knew they would fail. They weren't perfect beings, much as we aren't now. With the button analogy, I was just trying to put it in simpler terms. But what I meant to say if there is a label that says don't press, someone will anyways. By denying the Old Testament, I meant denying everything that is said in it. |

| Advertisement |
![]() |
| Tags |
| benelovant, evil, omnipotence, problem |
| Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests) | |
| Thread Tools | |
|
|