Benelovant omnipotence and the problem of Evil

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

eiyuu: No. no, no, you misunderstand. God did assist humans a little bit early on. Why else do you think the people in biblical times knew about him? However over time he has taken more of a backseat role and just watches to see whether or not we fail his test.

Why do the ancient Egyptians know about their gods? Or why do the ancient Greeks know about theirs? Or the Mayans? Or the Japanese? Its all just made up to explain natural occurrences, in most cases the stars. Then those explanations evolved into elaborate stories. That is a very VERY logical explanation. If God existed he wouldn't set up such a ridiculous situation to where nobody knows he EXISTS.

lysis: He does but you have to choose to follow him. If he just made himself completly known then everybody would follow him without question but is that because they believe he is the creator or are they afraid of him?[/QUOTE]

People "follow" him in fear now. The basis of basically everybody's faith is fear of death, whether physical or eternal, or whatever metaphor you use. That is what most religion is, hope for eternal life. Because nobody knows God, or can even say they know he exists (with complete honesty), NO ONE can say they love him, know him, or are even following him. Why the hell would God want people to be decided over whether he created the universe or not? The only reason he created humans is so there would be someone to praise him. If this God actually cared about any of us, he wouldn't hide from us to see if we blindly follow something someone said that someone said that someone said that someone said that someone said that someone said that someone said that someone said that someone said that someone said that someone said that someone said that someone said that someone said that someone said that someone said that someone wrote someone said that someone said that someone said that someone said that God supposedly did. Does anyone else see how this doesn't make sense? Please?

edit- and Oni Link I'm not trying to be a jerk to you or anything, I have nothing against you. I just get riled up about this stuff, haha

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

lysis: God cares about all what did I say that gave you the idea he doesn't care about you?

you said that he sits back and lets people stumble through life and suffer through unnecessary pain without ever lifting a finger to help.

Lysis: Wait what? Okay let me rephrase what I meant. I suppose I shouldn't say he does nothing. Haven't you ever heard that he speaks to you and tries to tell you what is right without actually telling you? Anyway if he just told us all the answers than we would be completly dependent on him but he doesn't want that. He wants us to be able to accomplish things ourselves and prove our ability to coexist peacefully and such. So no it's not like he wants to punish us but he doesn't want to just guide us right through life.

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

Lysis: Wait what? Okay let me rephrase what I meant. I suppose I shouldn't say he does nothing. Haven't you ever heard that he speaks to you and tries to tell you what is right without actually telling you?

I've heard of that, but I have not experienced anything like that which could only be explained by supernatural means. If you're talking about the conscience, which I assume you are, I attribute that to my subconscious mind, which makes the most logical sense and is backed up with scientific evidence, as per the scientific method and Occam's razor.

Anyway if he just told us all the answers than we would be completly dependent on him but he doesn't want that.

instead he doesn't tell us anything and lets us all fail in our inadequacies or die by the hands of heartless killers and merciless acts of fate which he could certainly save us from but decides not to?

at least you aren't of the type that says everyone who doesn't believe in God goes to Hell for eternal punishment, because then I'd really have something to say about this. If God specifically makes himself hard to find and then punishes those who can't find him, well, I hope you can see why I would have a problem with that.

He wants us to be able to accomplish things ourselves and prove our ability to coexist peacefully and such.

which we haven't quite figured out yet, if war, terrorism, and murder are any indication.

So no it's not like he wants to punish us but he doesn't want to just guide us right through life.

God doesn't want us to punish us? He doesn't want us to suffer? Then explain the Problem of Evil:

Originally Posted by Lysis

would it be all right, then, for me to allow my child to, say, ride her bike in the middle of a busy street? Would it be all right for me to allow my child to do absolutely anything, no matter how dangerous it might be? Even if I knew she would get injured or die? Even if I had the capability to prevent it from happening? Would it be all right if I were the one who gave her the bike and built the street and directed the dangerous traffic on the street and then let her ride there anyway, probably to her death?

because that is what an omnipotent, omniscient God does.

Originally Posted by Lysis

so God only cares about humanity as a whole and doesn't care if she gets injured along the way and loses most of her members?

a benevolent and personal God, which most or all forms of Christianity teach, would care about each and every individual. He wouldn't let millions die at the hands of some madman, or thousands die in a tragic accident of fate.

Originally Posted by Lysis

here we have the problem of free will in a determinist Universe. PIE alluded to it, but I will explain it a bit further. We assume that God is both omnipotent (all-powerful, capable of doing anything) and omniscient (all-knowing, having knowledge of everything past and future). We also assume it was God that created the Universe.

now, everything that happens is caused by something else, correct? Nothing can happen without a cause. Determinism says that everything that occurs in the Universe is simply one long chain of cause and effect. Everything that happens is an effect, caused by something before it, all the way back to the initial state of the Universe. It is determined, or predetermined, before it happens. Since God created the Universe, he is the one who decided the initial state. Because he knows everything, he knew exactly how the Universe would turn out and how it would end as soon as he made it. Since he is all powerful, he could have made it any way he wanted to.

so, if God created the Universe, he therefore directly causes everything that happens. He knew Judas would betray Jesus because that is how he set it up from the beginning of the Universe. Being all-knowing, he knew it would turn out that way. Being all-powerful, he could have set it up to turn out differently.

so, in a determinist Universe, or in a Universe created by an all-knowing and all-powerful God, there is no free will. Judas did not have any free will, only the perception of free will. An illusion, if you will. Every decision he made, including his decision to betray Jesus, was the only possible decision he could make, based on the internal design of his brain and the effects of the environmental conditions around him, all effects caused, indirectly, by the initial state of the Universe as designed and built by God. This is true of every person.

free will, you see, would contradict God's omniscience. God knew Judas would betray Jesus, or he would not have been omniscient. If Judas could have chosen not to betray Jesus, how could God know what Judas would do before he did it? If free will actually existed, then nothing about Judas's decision could be known until it happened, not even by God. God could, at the very most, know the consequences of every decision Judas (or you, or me, or anyone) could make, but he could not possibly know which decision, exactly, he would take until he took it. Therefore, God can not be omniscient, or we can not have free will.

this also leads, as PIE alludes to again, to the Problem of Evil. God cannot possibly be omnibenevolent (all-good, wanting the best for everyone and not capable or willing to do any evil) or really benevolent at all if he is directly responsible for all the evil and bad things that happen in the world, despite his ability (his all-powerful ability) to prevent it before it happens and his foreknowledge (his all-knowing foreknowledge) about what will happen.

incidentally, even in a Universe without God, free will is still meaningless and is nothing more than an illusion based on our limited perceptions of the workings of the Universe. If the Universe was suddenly reset to its initial condition, or a duplicate Universe was made with the same blueprints, everything would happen in exactly the same way, including every decision every person makes. Everything is determined.

Originally Posted by Lysis

God did make sin. God made everything, supposedly. If God is omnipotent, omniscient, and created the Universe and everything in it, then God made sin. By putting the Tree in the garden, and telling Adam and Eve not to eat it, God made it possible for them to sin. By commanding them not to eat that fruit, God defined what sin was and created it. By making Adam and Eve's brains the way God did, he made sure that they would eat that fruit and sin. By deciding what sin is, making sure people would sin, and not stopping people from sinning (despite being omnipotent and omniscent) God made sin.

Originally Posted by Lysis

God doesn't act on his foreknowledge? This is very irresponsible, first of all. Say I had the foreknowledge that a child was going to run across the street and get hit by a car. Say I also had the power to prevent this from happening. If I have both the knowledge (omniscience) and the power (omnipotence) but I do not act, I am responsible for that child's death. I am not omnibenevolent.

of course, even this metaphor doesn't fully explain it, because God actually must act on his foreknowledge. After all, God was omniscient before he created the Universe, right? You aren't telling me that he created the Universe before he knew everything that would happen in it, are you? Therefore, God doesn't even have to act on his foreknowledge, he simply had to create the Universe from the beginning in a way that would have prevented anything evil from ever happening. Prevention is easier and more desirable than intervention, right?

so it's more like I put the car there, I put the child there, and I made sure that they would collide.

Originally Posted by Lysis

take for example a parent and a child. The parent puts rat poison in a bowl and leaves it on the floor, telling the child not to eat it, and then leaves the room. Is the child responsible if it eats the poison and dies? No, the parent is, and should be charged with negligent homicide. After all, the parent must have been completely stupid, irresponsible, or just evil to leave poison in the reach of a child.

same with God. He is completely able to put sin out of our reach, and yet he lets us have it anyway, knowing full well that he plans to burn us for it later.

Originally Posted by Lysis

Back to the analogy of the child, if we gave him several different fruits, pointed one out and said "do not eat that one or you will die," and then left the room, what do you think he would do? Now, let's say he goes along, believing me, and doesn't eat it, and so I send in the serpent. The serpent seems innocent enough, and convinces the child that I was kidding about the whole death thing, that's just silly, why would a fruit kill him? In fact, I only told him that because it's actually the best fruit of the bunch and I was saving it for myself.

would it be the child's fault if he ate the fruit then? My fault? The serpent's fault? If it's the serpent's fault, who sent the serpent? How did he get into Eden? Did God send him, or was He simply not powerful enough to stop him, or not omniscient enough to know what he would do?

instead of just explaining it again, I decided to quote myself on the matter. These are all from various I:SB threads I've posted in and they all ask the same question: how can God be benevolent if he allows evil things to happen? It's the classic Problem of Evil, and I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation for it which doesn't contradict sound logic. Perhaps you can be the first, or perhaps you will give up like everyone else and go on believing your logical inconsistencies to the end of your days.

edit: incidentally, this last part of my post is directly related to the actual thread topic, so consider it my main response to the OP and a question not just to ODL here but to anyone who believes God exists and is actually good.

I wasn't exactly talking about the conscious I was making more of a reference to things that seem like signs that are meant to save you. For instance a friend of mine was going to board a plane once but the night before he had a terrible dream about a plane crash. The next day the plane he was supposed to get on crashed into one of the twin towers.

Like I said you have to learn to trust him and listen to what he is trying to tell you. As for murders, violence, etc. I actually believe that part of it increasing is because of Aeitheism. Not to insult your beliefs but if people don't have a set of morals, commandments, etc. to follow then what is there to keep them off the path of evil? I'm not saying all aetheists are inevitably going to wind up as violent psychos but some do. Conversely religion can cause people to do crazy things(Al Qaeda anyone?) but not all religions are like that nowadays.
Precisely which proves my point that he wants us to succeed on our own. It reminds me of a saying, "The Lord helps those who help themselves."

First off the definition of Benevolence: 1.disposition to do good 2.an act of kindness 3.a generous gift.

Okay now that I've defined it here's my opinion on the matter. So according to the definition a benevolent being is one that is kind and tries to do good. Okay now you want to know why he is good but also allows evil things to happen? Well doesn't this tie back to the whole thing about how he wants us to figure it out for ourselves? God is a being that loves all. Hitler, Osama, he loved all of them. Moreover he does not preach his message directly to us. In his stead he has sent numerous prophets and such like Moses, Joan of Arc, and even his own son to try and preach a message of peace. Some might even consider more recent people like Martin Luther Kin prophets of peace. For were god to simply reach done and erase all evil then he would be denying mankind the ability to grow and truly appreciate his message because we would not become a people of peace willingly. Only by looking at the faults we possess and working to correct them ourselves can we truly become enlightened and worthy of his grand desire. It was stated once "For God so loved the world he gave his only son." He gave his only son and allowed him to suffer to cleanse the sins of humanity and try to lead by example.

^ Woah... hahaha.

As cool as it sounds that your friend had the dream and avoided catastrophe, it was just a coincidence. Why would God save one insignificant person from a plane crash, and allow millions of other people to die horrible deaths everywhere else in the world?

And as for the prophets. Why would God send prophets if he wanted us to blindly follow him? And if it is true he actually wants us to know he's real, or to tell us something, why can't he tell us himself? I still don't get that. Why is it so important to this God that he remain a secret? People knowing he existed wouldn't cause everyone to automatically jump to his side I'm sure, and even if they did, they would do it out of free will. Him showing himself to his people is different than controlling their minds. Honestly if he came out right now, and it turns out Christianity was true all along, I'd hopelessly try and fight against him. He's kind of a dick. He seems to WANT "evil" to exist and also seems to WANT to send a bunch of people to Hell.

As for Jesus's "sacrifice." People die worse deaths all the time. And Jesus rose from the dead 2 days later. There was no real sacrifice, he lost absolutely nothing. Not that I wish this on him, but a real sacrifice would be for him to have gone to Hell... for good, in place of us, not to go through what every single one of us eventually goes through and then painlessly go on up to heaven.

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

I wasn't exactly talking about the conscious I was making more of a reference to things that seem like signs that are meant to save you. For instance a friend of mine was going to board a plane once but the night before he had a terrible dream about a plane crash. The next day the plane he was supposed to get on crashed into one of the twin towers.

oh, well, I haven't seen any signs either.

Like I said you have to learn to trust him and listen to what he is trying to tell you. As for murders, violence, etc. I actually believe that part of it increasing is because of Aeitheism. Not to insult your beliefs but if people don't have a set of morals, commandments, etc. to follow then what is there to keep them off the path of evil?

well first of all, atheism isn't a belief, it's a lack of belief in a certain particular concept.

secondly, most atheists do in fact have a set of morals and commandments to "keep them off the path of evil." Morals are part of virtually every human, through the evolution of the mind and behavior, as well as through the structure of society itself. There are plenty of moral philosophies that do not require the belief in a deity.

for instance, I believe that "good" is anything that causes more benefit than harm and "evil" is anything that causes more harm than good. I believe that people should strive to be good, rather than evil. I believe, in fact, that people should strive for the greatest good, that is, the greatest benefit to the greatest amount of people possible. I don't believe, however, in a god who will punish me if I fail at these morals.

as for commandments, well, most atheists still follow the law of the country they live in. The law is, for the most part, designed to keep the peace.

I'm not saying all aetheists are inevitably going to wind up as violent psychos but some do. Conversely religion can cause people to do crazy things(Al Qaeda anyone?) but not all religions are like that nowadays.

right. Some atheists go crazy, some theists go crazy. Some atheists are violent, some theists are violent. Some atheists are evil, some theists are evil. It's just simple fact that people are capable of both good and evil despite what they do or do not believe.

the fact that most people in the world are theists, however, means that there is almost certainly a greater number of crazy, violent, evil theists than atheists. There is no correlation, as far as anyone has found, between atheism and evil. Despite popular religious belief.

well, unless your definition of "evil" includes "not believing in my god," in which case I guess there is a direct correlation, but I hope you know what I mean.

Precisely which proves my point that he wants us to succeed on our own. It reminds me of a saying, "The Lord helps those who help themselves."

succeed in what, exactly?

First off the definition of Benevolence: 1.disposition to do good 2.an act of kindness 3.a generous gift.

Okay now that I've defined it here's my opinion on the matter. So according to the definition a benevolent being is one that is kind and tries to do good.

and an omnibenevolent being who is also omnipotent is one who is always good all of the time and doesn't need to "try." Such a being would prevent any instance of anything not good from ever happening. Of course, maybe you don't actually believe God is omnibenevolent. I don't think the Bible actually says. Maybe you only think he's semi-benevolent. So, he's good most of the time, or when he feels like it, or ultimately, but he'll let things slide by sometimes, maybe to "teach us a lesson" as they say.

Okay now you want to know why he is good but also allows evil things to happen? Well doesn't this tie back to the whole thing about how he wants us to figure it out for ourselves? God is a being that loves all. Hitler, Osama, he loved all of them.

did he love the people who suffered and died by their hands? If he did, shouldn't he have prevented it? In fact, if you read my posts, you'll see that I argue that God in fact caused all things to happen, including the Holocaust. So, not only did he fail to prevent millions of Jews from dying, he is fully responsible.

how is it, then, that he can be called good?

Moreover he does not preach his message directly to us. In his stead he has sent numerous prophets and such like Moses, Joan of Arc, and even his own son to try and preach a message of peace. Some might even consider more recent people like Martin Luther Kin prophets of peace. For were god to simply reach done and erase all evil then he would be denying mankind the ability to grow and truly appreciate his message because we would not become a people of peace willingly.

if only he had made us people of peace to begin with. Then he wouldn't have to reach down and erase all evil; it just wouldn't have existed to begin with.

and I don't know about you, but I would sure appreciate a god who saved the world from evil and suffering.

Only by looking at the faults we possess and working to correct them ourselves can we truly become enlightened and worthy of his grand desire. It was stated once "For God so loved the world he gave his only son." He gave his only son and allowed him to suffer to cleanse the sins of humanity and try to lead by example.

well, this doesn't exactly answer my question about how God could cause and create evil while still being called good.

I think the fact that people suffer is much less important than the fact that some people suffer way more than others. Bad things happen to good people. Why does one person deserve cancer while another doesn't? It has absolutely nothing to do with free will, because it's not a choice. It just happens, and God clearly does nothing to prevent it. I just don't see how you could possibly reconcile omnibenevolence with watching people suffer and doing nothing about it when you easily could save them. That's not how you treat someone you love. If God exists, he cannot be all-loving.

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

Like I said you have to learn to trust him and listen to what he is trying to tell you. As for murders, violence, etc. I actually believe that part of it increasing is because of Aeitheism. Not to insult your beliefs but if people don't have a set of morals, commandments, etc. to follow then what is there to keep them off the path of evil? I'm not saying all aetheists are inevitably going to wind up as violent psychos but some do. Conversely religion can cause people to do crazy things(Al Qaeda anyone?) but not all religions are like that nowadays.

Actually, the predominantly-atheist countries generally have lower crime rates (source).

^ Or why not just end it all, let everyone into heaven, and stop the needless suffering forever. Or is heaven going to be another repeat? Is he going to hide from us in heaven too?

I must note that I'm not particularly fond of the cancer analogy. People seem to think that victims contact cancer "just because", when the condition is actually the result of genetic inheritance and growth environment; it's not just a coincidence.

Also, although I'm not exactly atheist (although people love to throw agnostics into that mix, which I cringe towards), I should note that I find the "atheists have no sense of morals" to be rather absurd. TV Tropes' article on atheism will surmise things better for me...

Atheism does not prescribe a system of morality or code of behavior. There is no built-in sense of reward for good acts and punishment for evil ones. While many would expect this to lead the average atheist to become a nihilistic Nietzsche Wannabe, atheists generally supply moral codes of their own, formed with the support of family, friends, and their culture. They have to, since if you don't have any moral code, you don't get the benefits of Good Feels Good. (And also that SanityIsItsOwnAdvantage.) ...

Atheists will often point out that we each build our own morality, as most Christians don't follow all the rules and laws of the Bible (like many things in the Old Testament, for any reason), but only those which make sense for them in the modern world...

The moral philosophy most closely associated with atheism is secular humanism, which is derived from the same basic principles. It is a popular philosophy with atheists, but by no means the only one. The main tenets of secular humanism are:

• Need to test beliefs — A deeply held conviction that all beliefs, be they political, religious, or otherwise, should be challenged and tested on a regular basis, rather than simply being accepted on faith. By challenging and discarding flawed beliefs, people can replaced them with newer, less flawed ones, and so grow as a person.
• Reason, evidence, scientific method — The belief that the answers to questions and solutions to problems should be sought through reason, critical thinking, and scientific methods of inquiry, rather than faith or mysticism.
• Fulfillment, growth, creativity — A concern for fulfillment, growth, and creativity for both the individual and humanity in general.
• Search for truth — A constant search for a universal, objective truth, through the use of reason, evidence, and the scientific method, with the awareness that new discoveries can alter our perception and knowledge of truth.
• This life — A concern for our life on Earth above a hypothetical afterlife, making the most of the time we have and making our lives meaningful through our understanding of each other.
• Ethics — A search for a clear code of ethics, judged on their ability to improve life for humanity through individual responsibility.
• Building a better world — A conviction that reason, understanding, and good will can lead to improvements in the world.
• Morality determined by human need — The scientific concept of morality as an evolved strategy of human beings who needed to band together in groups in order to survive...

Hopefully, that answers a few things. ^_^;

Originally Posted by Mad Hatter

Actually, the predominantly-atheist countries generally have lower crime rates (source).

ah, thanks. I knew there was probably something about that, but I didn't want to say anything without a source and didn't feel like researching.

Originally Posted by Ysionris

I must note that I'm not particularly fond of the cancer analogy. People seem to think that victims contact cancer "just because", when the condition is actually the result of genetic inheritance and growth environment; it's not just a coincidence.

but that's the problem. People don't get cancer because they're bad or immoral. They get cancer because that's the way God made them. Even if they're really good people, God gives them cancer anyway. How is that benevolent?

Also, although I'm not exactly atheist (although people love to throw agnostics into that mix, which I cringe towards), I should note that I find the "atheists have no sense of morals" to be rather absurd. TV Tropes' article on atheism will surmise things better for me...

haha, TV Tropes. I think I read that same exact article just last week, actually.

also, not to make you cringe or anything, but agnostics who are not theists (do not believe in a deity) are atheists whether they like it or not. Agnostic atheist, weak atheist, implicit atheist, etc. You don't have to say "I do not believe in God" or "I believe God does not exist" to be an atheist, you just have to not be a theist.

just a bit of semantics for you. It doesn't really matter. It's just that, in the same sense, I tend to cringe when people assume atheism requires positive belief or explicit claims, when in reality, it's just a simple lack of belief. In fact, it is the "default setting," so to speak, since no one is born with enough understanding to be a theist and anyone who isn't a theist is an atheist.

Originally Posted by Ysionris

I must note that I'm not particularly fond of the cancer analogy. People seem to think that victims contact cancer "just because", when the condition is actually the result of genetic inheritance and growth environment; it's not just a coincidence.

Part of it is a predisposition, and part of it actually is coincidence. Mutations happen regardless of your environment or parents, and if they occur in a proto-oncogene, you'll get cancer. Genetic predispositions or environmental triggers just raise the probability.

But that's really irrelevant, because my whole point was that cancer is not in your control. You don't choose your parents.

I have ever so recently embraced Epicurus-perhaps Gods are not as powerful as we think... Perhaps they are bound by the same physical laws as we are.

Originally Posted by Phazon goron

I have ever so recently embraced Epicurus-perhaps Gods are not as powerful as we think... Perhaps they are bound by the same physical laws as we are.

I'd argue that a being restricted to our laws isn't as much a god as a simply powerful being. When I think of God, I think of a being that has complete control over physical laws, as well as implied laws such as time and space. He doesn't have to be completely knowing/loving/present but should demonstrate a profound authority and presence.

Originally Posted by Lysis

well, unless your definition of "evil" includes "not believing in my god," in which case I guess there is a direct correlation, but I hope you know what I mean.

succeed in what, exactly?

and an omnibenevolent being who is also omnipotent is one who is always good all of the time and doesn't need to "try." Such a being would prevent any instance of anything not good from ever happening. Of course, maybe you don't actually believe God is omnibenevolent. I don't think the Bible actually says. Maybe you only think he's semi-benevolent. So, he's good most of the time, or when he feels like it, or ultimately, but he'll let things slide by sometimes, maybe to "teach us a lesson" as they say.

did he love the people who suffered and died by their hands? If he did, shouldn't he have prevented it? In fact, if you read my posts, you'll see that I argue that God in fact caused all things to happen, including the Holocaust. So, not only did he fail to prevent millions of Jews from dying, he is fully responsible.

how is it, then, that he can be called good?

if only he had made us people of peace to begin with. Then he wouldn't have to reach down and erase all evil; it just wouldn't have existed to begin with.

and I don't know about you, but I would sure appreciate a god who saved the world from evil and suffering.

well, this doesn't exactly answer my question about how God could cause and create evil while still being called good.

It doesn't have you heard a word I've said? No offense.

Becoming a self made people of peace.

The bible never sepcifically says but considering Jesus loved all and always tried to do the right thing I would assume god does as well. I would imagine he does some things to teach us lessons or test us but even if they're bad they're out of love.

You could says he's directly responsible for everything. Now how do we know this wasn't the devil's work?(Yes I've decided to bring the devil into this because if we're gonna argue good and evil actions he should probably be a part of it)

Who God? What defines good for you? If a being is pure hearted and tries to guide his people however indirectly how is he not good?

Have you not read Genesis? We were until we ate from the apple. While that is not actually how if happened I believe that something about us occurred when we became an intelligence species and could make choices that were good or bad. Also depending on whether or not you do think he had anything to do with the flood in Noah's Ark then he already did that.

Only by embracing God can we be saved. Not even God just embrace other people help your fellow man. Then we will be saved

This is why I decided to bring the devil into it because logically he would be the cause of the majority of pain and strife in the world.

^ What does Satan do? I think all the "evil" in the world can be accounted for through human actions, not the work of yet another secret deity. If Satan existed, why would he be hiding? You'd think he would be out actually doing stuff instead of "making people do bad things."

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

Becoming a self made people of peace.

that's coming along just great, I see.

The bible never sepcifically says but considering Jesus loved all and always tried to do the right thing I would assume god does as well. I would imagine he does some things to teach us lessons or test us but even if they're bad they're out of love.

You could says he's directly responsible for everything. Now how do we know this wasn't the devil's work?(Yes I've decided to bring the devil into this because if we're gonna argue good and evil actions he should probably be a part of it)

who created the devil? Who gave the devil the ability to cause pain and suffering on the Earth? Who never tries to stop the devil or keep him from doing anything bad?

that's right, God. God is responsible for the devil's actions as well.

Who God? What defines good for you? If a being is pure hearted and tries to guide his people however indirectly how is he not good?

because he is directly responsible for all the pain and suffering on the Earth.

Have you not read Genesis? We were until we ate from the apple. While that is not actually how if happened I believe that something about us occurred when we became an intelligence species and could make choices that were good or bad.

why did God put the forbidden fruit there if he didn't want them to eat it?

Also depending on whether or not you do think he had anything to do with the flood in Noah's Ark then he already did that.

what, by murdering nearly everyone?

Only by embracing God can we be saved. Not even God just embrace other people help your fellow man. Then we will be saved

This is why I decided to bring the devil into it because logically he would be the cause of the majority of pain and strife in the world.

and God is the cause of the devil. If God were good, he wouldn't let an evil creature like the devil roam free on the Earth and cause pain and strife.

Originally Posted by Lysis

who created the devil? Who gave the devil the ability to cause pain and suffering on the Earth? Who never tries to stop the devil or keep him from doing anything bad?

that's right, God. God is responsible for the devil's actions as well.



because he is directly responsible for all the pain and suffering on the Earth.



why did God put the forbidden fruit there if he didn't want them to eat it?


what, by murdering nearly everyone?


and God is the cause of the devil. If God were good, he wouldn't let an evil creature like the devil roam free on the Earth and cause pain and strife.

Need I say that Satan was once the most beautiful and most adored angel of God, but when Satan became lustful and wanted to be God, he tried to overthrow God. Of course God prevailed and cast Satan down. Suffering and pain is another test by God to see whether you stay true to faith or you turn away to human living (so to speak).

God put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden as a test also, to see if Adam and Eve would obey God or disobey Him. Of course God already knew what was going to happen. And don't ask why; He is God and can do whatever the heck he wants. Think of it this way: Think of a "Do Not Press" button. They are made, even knowing that someone will press it out of curiousity. Even though it could be a disaster because they know someone will press the button, they still make them.

In response to the Noah's Flood and murdering almost everyone, everyone on Earth was corrupt with sin and turning away from the Lord. They were fully and totally evil. However Noah found favor within the Lord.

Let me ask you this: How can you deny the Old Testament when we have found many artifacts that back up a lot of the Old Testament? And many athiests see the Bible as a "history" book of sorts (metaphorical), but some of the things in the Bible, no historian would have written about, because it would not have been important. However it was important to our faith, and therefore cannot be just a metaphorical history book.

Originally Posted by Zelfreakv1

Need I say that Satan was once the most beautiful and most adored angel of God, but when Satan became lustful and wanted to be God, he tried to overthrow God. Of course God prevailed and cast Satan down.

down to Earth, where he apparently causes pain and suffering and God doesn't care. Satan does evil things, right? Do you agree with that? God could stop Satan from doing evil things, but he doesn't. Therefore, God is not good.

think about it. If you were completely capable of stopping a serial killer from killing, but didn't, would you be good?

Suffering and pain is another test by God to see whether you stay true to faith or you turn away to human living (so to speak).

God doesn't need to test people, though. God knows everything already, and he made everyone the way they are. So, God made people so that they would either pass or fail his test. After, or even before, he made them he already knew whether or not they would pass or fail. Then he punishes those who fail, even though they couldn't have done any better since God made them that way.

God put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden as a test also, to see if Adam and Eve would obey God or disobey Him. Of course God already knew what was going to happen. And don't ask why; He is God and can do whatever the heck he wants.

so, again, did God want them to fail the test?

Think of it this way: Think of a "Do Not Press" button. They are made, even knowing that someone will press it out of curiousity. Even though it could be a disaster because they know someone will press the button, they still make them.

no, no one does that. No one makes a button which is specifically meant not to be pushed. That would be stupid and pointless.

In response to the Noah's Flood and murdering almost everyone, everyone on Earth was corrupt with sin and turning away from the Lord. They were fully and totally evil. However Noah found favor within the Lord.

and violence is always the best solution, right?

also, I'm sure all those poor children and babies that didn't make it on the Ark (that would be, incidentally, all of them) were just as fully and totally evil as everyone else?

Let me ask you this: How can you deny the Old Testament when we have found many artifacts that back up a lot of the Old Testament?

deny how? I certainly don't deny that it exists, obviously.

And many athiests see the Bible as a "history" book of sorts (metaphorical), but some of the things in the Bible, no historian would have written about, because it would not have been important. However it was important to our faith, and therefore cannot be just a metaphorical history book.

no, it's a religious book.

Originally Posted by Lysis

down to Earth, where he apparently causes pain and suffering and God doesn't care. Satan does evil things, right? Do you agree with that? God could stop Satan from doing evil things, but he doesn't. Therefore, God is not good.

think about it. If you were completely capable of stopping a serial killer from killing, but didn't, would you be good?



God doesn't need to test people, though. God knows everything already, and he made everyone the way they are. So, God made people so that they would either pass or fail his test. After, or even before, he made them he already knew whether or not they would pass or fail. Then he punishes those who fail, even though they couldn't have done any better since God made them that way.



so, again, did God want them to fail the test?



no, no one does that. No one makes a button which is specifically meant not to be pushed. That would be stupid and pointless.



and violence is always the best solution, right?

also, I'm sure all those poor children and babies that didn't make it on the Ark (that would be, incidentally, all of them) were just as fully and totally evil as everyone else?



deny how? I certainly don't deny that it exists, obviously.

I could explain why there is suffering and pain in the world, but I can't say it the best. It never comes out the way it is supposed to. Whenever I say it, people take it the opposite way of what it means. So maybe someone else here could tell you.

God gives humans the free will, to make whatever choice they want, whether it be good or bad. He knows there are people who won't follow Him, not because He made them that way, but because there are people out there naive to the fact of Him.

There wasn't any violence during the flood! We all have what is called Inherited Sin, which would be sin passed down since the beginning of our existence, because Adam and Eve sinned against the Lord by disobeying Him.

Of course God didn't want Adam and Eve to fail, but He gave them free will and had to test them. He knew they would fail. They weren't perfect beings, much as we aren't now.

With the button analogy, I was just trying to put it in simpler terms. But what I meant to say if there is a label that says don't press, someone will anyways.

By denying the Old Testament, I meant denying everything that is said in it.