Benelovant omnipotence and the problem of Evil

^That's quite a good answer, I suppose. Although it's a question I have really been asking myself, mostly. I do have double standards of judgement like that, and I'm trying to uproot them all. Although on this question it will come down to accepting such heavy irrationality as within the confines of healthy behavior or allowing some religious beliefs, many of which are common, to come under the definition of delusion. Still these things can be observed on an individual basis, but when it comes to belief, the line can be drawn almost arbitrarily. In short it's just difficult.

Then again I advocate that such unjustified beliefs should be tolerated rather than accepted, and certainly not encouraged.

Hyper: Irrationality? Really when you get down to it humans are insane hypocrites plain and simple. Some people are just more insane than others.

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

Hyper: Irrationality? Really when you get down to it humans are insane hypocrites plain and simple. Some people are just more insane than others.

Insanity and Irrationality are not positive traits and should be discouraged. Although quotes like yours and mine illustate the difficulty in defining exactly what quantifies irrational behavior, I suppose.

hyper: That's the problem. Like you said there is no such thing as insanity and irrationality. Just like there's no such thing as good and evil. It's all perspective.

No, I didnt claim that there was no such thing. I merely said that it was difficult to quantify. That said, believing in invisible beings that can supposedly be communicated with is clearly on the spectrum of irrational behavior, without a doubt. And while I do accept that labelling any behavior as such is difficult, that description could fall both under the category of certain religious beliefs and certain delusions. My initial point here is; what makes the religious side (God concept) any more rational?

Good and Evil I don't really want to comment on, although if I did I would probably say from the outset that I dont believe in them at all as concepts.

hyper: who stated that talking to god was more rational? I don't believe I did or are you getting this from something else?

Anyway I have faith that there is a being that watches over and tries to guide us just as the person can be said to have faith that there is another person next to them. Now if the delusions as you call them become unhealthy then i could see trying to help them but I don't find the fact that I believe in god or some higher power to be bad for my mental or emotional health.

^While indeed I can agree that it doesnt affect you aversely - of course, it is just as irrational, or at least on a similar level, to the idea of a person who has invisible friends. The amount of evidence is basically the same, and from the perspective of an outsider, they are equally irrational. That is the crux of my point.

I'm not trying to say 'belief in God is irrational', rather that my point is that If I call the invisible friend man even lacking in sanity or better judgement, the same must be said of the former.

Please note that I do not necessarily believe in the existence of a benevolent and omnipotent god, but, for the sake of the debate, I am keeping this mentality in mind to entertain the topic at hand.

I would like, for a moment, to take an example from an unlikely source, the book Angels and Demons by Dan Brown (yes, I actually read the book). The example is the question of whether or not you would love your child and cherish her and protect her. Then, if you agreed to this assumption, if you would allow her to ride a bike. You would, probably, tell your child to be careful, be safe, and not try anything too dangerous. Then you'd probably let her off and learn how to ride. And when she does try something dangerous and hurts herself, you probably wouldn't coddle her, letting her learn her own lessons instead.

While I have a problem with how humanity interprets faith (I'm not actually religious myself), I believe that the point Christians are attempting to convey is that while God is benevolent, he also does not wish for us to take the easy way out, and allows us to learn from our own mistakes rather than follow a rigid path already set for us.

Originally Posted by Ysionris

While I have a problem with how humanity interprets faith (I'm not actually religious myself), I believe that the point Christians are attempting to convey is that while God is benevolent, he also does not wish for us to take the easy way out, and allows us to learn from our own mistakes rather than follow a rigid path already set for us.

While true in most cases, Christians also DO believe in a rigid path. And depending on the situation, Christians will say things happened because of God, like getting a job or something like that, which means God would have had to have taken free will from a person for a moment to make something like that happen. And the difference between the parent and child model and God and us is, the child definitely knows its parent exists. The parent actually cares for the child, and the child can go to them, talk to them, hug them, and all that. God seems to be hiding from us, and doesn't want us to actually know he exists, which is extremely cruel when put into the parent child scenario...

I know many religious people who have realized there is no proof their God exists uses the term "faith" for such things, but why the h*** would you God who supposedly loves you more than anything leave something like his very existence up to "faith"? Should faith pertain more to whether or not he knows what is best for you? Or faith in what he has to say? Or following what he says? The truth is, none of us actually have ANY reason to believe in this God. It isn't taking free will away for him to show his existence and prove he exists to the people so desperately wanting to know. People are killing each other over this guy! And God showed himself to the angels, yet some supposedly rebelled (even though angels also aren't supposed to have free will...) and Adam and Eve went against his wishes in the garden, though they knew he existed (even though they didn't know the difference between right and wrong at the time... so the whole thing should have been void...). We shouldn't be running around WONDERING if God exists. If he does, we should KNOW it, and if anything be debating over whether we want to follow him or not... anyone see the difference?

eiyuu: Because he's testing who his true followers are by making it very hard to ascertain whether or not he exists.

ysironis: I agree with you that god wants us to learn from our mistakes and grow on our own rather than lead us.

Originally Posted by Ysionris

Please note that I do not necessarily believe in the existence of a benevolent and omnipotent god, but, for the sake of the debate, I am keeping this mentality in mind to entertain the topic at hand.

I would like, for a moment, to take an example from an unlikely source, the book Angels and Demons by Dan Brown (yes, I actually read the book). The example is the question of whether or not you would love your child and cherish her and protect her. Then, if you agreed to this assumption, if you would allow her to ride a bike. You would, probably, tell your child to be careful, be safe, and not try anything too dangerous. Then you'd probably let her off and learn how to ride. And when she does try something dangerous and hurts herself, you probably wouldn't coddle her, letting her learn her own lessons instead.

While I have a problem with how humanity interprets faith (I'm not actually religious myself), I believe that the point Christians are attempting to convey is that while God is benevolent, he also does not wish for us to take the easy way out, and allows us to learn from our own mistakes rather than follow a rigid path already set for us.

would it be all right, then, for me to allow my child to, say, ride her bike in the middle of a busy street? Would it be all right for me to allow my child to do absolutely anything, no matter how dangerous it might be? Even if I knew she would get injured or die? Even if I had the capability to prevent it from happening? Would it be all right if I were the one who gave her the bike and built the street and directed the dangerous traffic on the street and then let her ride there anyway, probably to her death?

because that is what an omnipotent, omniscient God does.

Lysis: In all fairness, I was comparing the child to humankind in its entirety; your comparison seems to be pointing towards human extinction (which would be, in this example, the death of the child). I may be only speaking for myself, but I don't see humanity extinct yet. ^_^;

Seriously, though, I understand what you're trying to get at, although I would like to kindly remind you the scope of the example stated. ^_^;

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

eiyuu: Because he's testing who his true followers are by making it very hard to ascertain whether or not he exists.

That makes absolutely no sense at all. Back to the parent/child analogy. This would be the same is me and say, my wife, having a kid, bringing it home from the hospital, and leaving it in my house all alone all its life, then expecting it to somehow realize who I am, and act the way I want it to while watching through a one-way window...

Originally Posted by Ysionris

Lysis: In all fairness, I was comparing the child to humankind in its entirety; your comparison seems to be pointing towards human extinction (which would be, in this example, the death of the child). I may be only speaking for myself, but I don't see humanity extinct yet. ^_^;

Seriously, though, I understand what you're trying to get at, although I would like to kindly remind you the scope of the example stated. ^_^;

so God only cares about humanity as a whole and doesn't care if she gets injured along the way and loses most of her members?

a benevolent and personal God, which most or all forms of Christianity teach, would care about each and every individual. He wouldn't let millions die at the hands of some madman, or thousands die in a tragic accident of fate.

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

eiyuu: Because he's testing who his true followers are by making it very hard to ascertain whether or not he exists.

I thought God wanted everyone to follow him, not just the extremely dedicated.

Originally Posted by Lysis

I thought God wanted everyone to follow him, not just the extremely dedicated.

or the extremely naive. Who in their right mind that possesses any amount of reason would just choose a God and base their life on what is written about him? If Christianity is true, and God is real, only the lucky are going to heaven.

Originally Posted by eiyuu_004

or the extremely naive. Who in their right mind that possesses any amount of reason would just choose a God and base their life on what is written about him? If Christianity is true, and God is real, only the lucky are going to heaven.

about 76% of the people in the United States are Christians.

(according to this source: American Religious Identification Survey 2008)

Originally Posted by Lysis

about 76% of the people in the United States are Christians.

Actually about 76% of Americans classify themselves as Christians but don't actually care anything about the religious beliefs. I know plenty of people like that. But still, these people are ONLY basing their beliefs off of how they were raised or influences by peers, not by actually knowing anything. Meaning if that God is real, you would be lucky to get into heaven, as opposed to someone who was raised not knowing anything about a god, or raised some other religion, or people who don't see any reason to choose a religion based off of nothing at all. (So the intelligent, reason-based thinkers would go to hell, because God didn't bother to actually leave any indication he exists). Its kind of like if I were some deranged killer, and I laid out a small blue square in the middle of a mall, took note of the people who stepped on it, and killed everyone but those people in the building. Sorry to compare God to a blood-thirsty killer but....

eiyuu: No. no, no, you misunderstand. God did assist humans a little bit early on. Why else do you think the people in biblical times knew about him? However over time he has taken more of a backseat role and just watches to see whether or not we fail his test.

lysis: He does but you have to choose to follow him. If he just made himself completly known then everybody would follow him without question but is that because they believe he is the creator or are they afraid of him?

Originally Posted by eiyuu_004

Actually about 76% of Americans classify themselves as Christians but don't actually care anything about the religious beliefs. I know plenty of people like that. But still, these people are ONLY basing their beliefs off of how they were raised or influences by peers, not by actually knowing anything. Meaning if that God is real, you would be lucky to get into heaven,

well, it would depend on how generous the Christian god is. If he unconditionally accepts anyone who is considered a Christian, then about three quarters of the United States would go to Heaven. On the other hand, if he's super strict about the rules he put in his Bible, very few or virtually no one would go to Heaven. If he's a nice guy who actually loves the human race he created, then everyone would go to Heaven.

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

eiyuu: No. no, no, you misunderstand. God did assist humans a little bit early on. Why else do you think the people in biblical times knew about him? However over time he has taken more of a backseat role and just watches to see whether or not we fail his test.

what a cruel god you worship. He doesn't care about me. It's all just a game to him, apparently.

lysis: He does but you have to choose to follow him. If he just made himself completly known then everybody would follow him without question but is that because they believe he is the creator or are they afraid of him?

no, but how could you possibly choose to follow someone who you don't know exists? You just said that God hides his existence from anyone who doesn't already know he exists. So, anyone who doesn't know he exists (that is, everyone who actually requires a bit of evidence before accepting claims left and right) would have no way of getting into Heaven.

in any case, like I said before, I thought God wanted everyone to follow him. So, yes, why doesn't he make himself completely known to everybody? It would make the most sense.

lysis: God cares about all what did I say that gave you the idea he doesn't care about you?

I have my own proof. Sadly It's rather a personal matter so I'd rather not tell you why I believe in him so strongly. Anyway it's not that he's necessarily trying to trick you he just wants all people to accept him willingly without the need for it to be proven that he exists. Also just so long as you are a good person then you will get into heaven irregardless of whether or not you believe in him.

God works through other people. If you read the bible and accept it as fact he usually only talks to propehts(or other important people) such as Adam, Moses, Noah, Jesus, etc.