Benelovant omnipotence and the problem of Evil

Originally Posted by Cook-E-Monster

you lost me at "incompatible"

you had me at cookie.

were you refering to the OP, or a different post?

I couldn't really tell through the overly-terse nature and nebulous usage of the word "you" in your post.

I've always had a problem with evil in the Bible. One major problem I have is the very first "sin," eating from the forbidden "tree of knowledge of good and evil." So... before eating the fruit, Adam and Eve had no knowledge of what was good and what was evil? So how the hell did God hold the two accountable for disobeying him, if they had no concept of right and wrong?

If angels don't have free will, how did Satan turn against God?

If God supposedly doesn't talk to us, and show himself to us like he did with Adam and Eve because he can't stand to be around sin, why was he ok with Satan going up to heaven to make a bet with him about Job?

I honestly don't believe in good and evil though, but in things that are helpful and hurtful to certain people.

Originally Posted by Wrath of Pong

Evil is like cold or darkness, it really doesn't exist. Just like cold is the absence of heat, and dark is the absence of light, evil is simply the absence of good, and is not a real force.

That's basically my philosophy as well. There is no evil people, just people who are less good.

attack: So you honestly don't think the Hitler was the purest form of evil we'll ever know?

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

attack: So you honestly don't think the Hitler was the purest form of evil we'll ever know?

In all honesty and fairness, I don't think what Hitler was doing was any different than what we do to cows. BUT if I had a chance to stab Hitler through the top of his head and then drive a stake up through his intestines to his heart, I would definitely take it. Just because there is no right and wrong in the grand scheme of things, doesn't mean there are things out there I think should be stopped, or that I would stop if I had the chance. Right and wrong vary depending on the person and how they grew up. Muslim extremists believe it is right to kill all who oppose their God. Christian extremists also believed the same thing not too long ago. So who is to say what is right and what is wrong?

eiyuu: Wait are you comparing humans to cows? Seriously what is this about killing animals? If we don't kill them then how can we eat? Look at nature itself. It's not green it's blood red. Survival of the fittest.

In response to the other part of your quote I was unaware they(meaning the christians) actively killed other people that opposed their views I merely thought they merely tried to make them convert to their religion.

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

eiyuu: Wait are you comparing humans to cows? Seriously what is this about killing animals? If we don't kill them then how can we eat?

Well, I am currently testing myself on quite a strict vegetarian diet, and it doesnt seem overly difficult.

Hyper: True but without killing animals we don't get the essential protein that we need. And just so you know I'm aware it can come from other sources but it's not as good a source as meat.

Yes I am comparing humans to cows. Whats the big deal? How are we so different, why all the species bigotry? There are plenty of ways to eat without enslaving cows and committing a constant mass slaughter. But still, I eat meat, though I actually don't like beef that much haha. What I meant was, that if you step back and look at everything outside of perfect infallible humanity, it is all just the mass slaughter of organisms. And I hate it when "survival of the fittest" is used to justify slaughter houses... the term isn't referring to animals killing each other because they can, its about traits allowing animals to survive... Just because we have the technology, doesn't mean we should do what we do. We could also take out all the "lesser" countries in the world and use their lands for anything we pleased (not that this doesn't already happen). You know, we could all just eat the babies being aborted every day. We should pay the mothers to have their kids and give them up to meat packing industries, they aren't wanted anyway.

And during the Spanish Inquisition for example, Christians went and killed all, especially Jews, who refused to convert to Christianity. Similar things have happened all throughout history.

eiyuu: I don't like beef either but I do agree about nature being built on the philosphy of the strong eating the weak. That is the way the world was for oh about five hundred million years before human intellect came into play.

As for the spanish inquisition that is truly a sad day in the history of my religion just as the current Islamic Insurgency will probably be viewed as a sad time by the muslims several generations down the road.

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

Hyper: True but without killing animals we don't get the essential protein that we need. And just so you know I'm aware it can come from other sources but it's not as good a source as meat.

I'm still sifting through alot of conflicting information (or so it would seem to me), but my relatives, who have been living on a balanced, healthy vegetarian diet for years are helping me out. I'm hoping that in time it will afford me some confort to know that the food I am eating requires less energy and resources to produce and probably avoids some practices towards animals that I would take issue with. Alot of the meat avaliable to us, too, isnt particulairly good for you in our favourite methods of preparing it.

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

I don't like beef either but I do agree about nature being built on the philosphy of the strong eating the weak. That is the way the world was for oh about five hundred million years before human intellect came into play.

The world has actually run more on a "get what you can" sort of philosophy, not always strong eating the weak. And of course, that's just survival. I'm not saying its wrong to eat other animals, I don't think there is a right and wrong anything. The same way it wasn't wrong for the Europeans to go into America, conquer the natives' lands, kill many of them off and drive the rest into reservations. That's just the strong taking what they can get right? So taking it a step further, is it wrong for one race to kill off another for whatever reason? If genocide benefits your race, then why not? Or what if these races became isolated for millions of years and actually became different species. Would it then be acceptable for one to destroy the other?

-edit-

I'm still sifting through alot of conflicting information (or so it would seem to me), but my relatives, who have been living on a balanced, healthy vegetarian diet for years are helping me out. I'm hoping that in time it will afford me some confort to know that the food I am eating requires less energy and resources to produce and probably avoids some practices towards animals that I would take issue with. Alot of the meat avaliable to us, too, isnt particulairly good for you in our favourite methods of preparing it.

very true. And with the amount people waste these days with over-eating and just throwing uneaten food out, its just ridiculous how many lives are taken!

eiyuu: Really I don't see why it would. And I have recently been pondering about how evil is merely conflicting viewpoints which you seem to believe.

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

eiyuu: Really I don't see why it would. And I have recently been pondering about how evil is merely conflicting viewpoints which you seem to believe.

All I really believe is that there is no set good and evil, though different people have come to believe certain things are good, and certain things are bad. I don't think its cool for people to expect everyone to conform to their own views though. But then, it could be beneficial for everyone to have the same, but by what means is it acceptable to make that happen?

eiyuu: I don't believe that I would like a world where everyone has the same views. Sure it would be easier to live in but we wouldn't be humans anymore we'd just be mindless robots. A better solution would be for everyone to accept the beliefs of others which is why it shames me that the christians of a previous age couldn't do that.

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

eiyuu: I don't believe that I would like a world where everyone has the same views. Sure it would be easier to live in but we wouldn't be humans anymore we'd just be mindless robots. A better solution would be for everyone to accept the beliefs of others which is why it shames me that the christians of a previous age couldn't do that.

Though I agree, I wouldn't like to live in a world where everyone had the same beliefs, we wouldn't be mindless robots if we did, lol. But I know what you mean by it. And don't think that it was only the Christians back then that are like that, many today are the same way (except they don't kill people, they just ridicule and look down on the "non-believers") But of course, not all are that way. And I know too many atheists that do the same thing the other way around. I guess it just comes to how the different peoples' beliefs affect your life. If a Christian were to really take their religion seriously, they would be obligated to make sure everyone came to know Christ, which would not be cool with an atheist who thinks its all nonsense and a waste of time, or a Hinduist who has different beliefs entirely. So there really is no way to truly blend all the beliefs peacefully into one society without watering down those beliefs and rounding edges to make them all compatible. You know what I'm saying?

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

attack: So you honestly don't think the Hitler was the purest form of evil we'll ever know?

I doubt he'll be the worst person. At some point, somebody will come along that will make Hitler seem like a kind old lady. For that matter, didn't Stalin kill more people than Hitler (I seem to remember Stalin killed 10 million, while Hitler only killed 6)? And I'm not saying that Hitler's action aren't appalling, I'm just saying that nothing can be pure evil.

attack: I suppose pure evil is rather a strange phrase to use. Still I've never heard of Stalin killing more people so I'll have to look into that.

eiyuu: And I do take my religion seriously but I really don't see why I should force my beliefs on other people. I mean Jesus loved every single person. He'd even love Hitler if he were alive back then so I don't see why we need to force others to think the way we do. We just need to get everyone to accept the beliefs of others. Sadly this is practically impossible.

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

We just need to get everyone to accept the beliefs of others. Sadly this is practically impossible.

To what extent do you recognise that notion of acceptance of differing beliefs? Certain views of the world are recognised near universally as delusions, pure and simple. And the grey area is larger than most think - An adult that speaks to invisible people is merely a step away from a believer in the presence of a great entity, such as God. Why does the latter sound much further within the confines of normality?

Hyper: Well see I might find it strange that a person talks to people that aren't there but I wouldn't outright chastise them for it. I don't mean you should have to agree with people but you shouldn't make rude or unjust assumptions about someone based on their beliefs. Sadly I do this occassionally.