The Religion of Evolutionism ~ discussion and CIVILIZED debate

Originally Posted by Caelum

But there is so much information packed into a single cell—more than all the volumes of an encyclopedia—that I don’t understand how more complex body parts could ever possibly be mutated, even over huge lengths of time.

Actually, the entire human genome, if converted to binary could stored on less than a 800 MBs.

Now amoebas have many thousands more genes in their make up, but that still would only be a few gigs at most.

Mutation is a random change to the existed genetic material of an organism, right?

Additionally, it doesn’t really make sense to me how, unless something impossibly mutated a perfectly working set of wings, for example, a small mutation to that effect would benefit the survival and reproductive ability of anything.

Mutation can be brought about randomly yes, but its whether or not this change is beneficial that decides if it becomes part of the genome of the organism of not. If the mutation is not beneficial for the organisms survival, then it won't increase its ability to reproduce and pass on that trait and it won't be prevailent. If its detrimental it will hinder its ability to reproduce and thus not be passed on. If its beneficial and gives the organism an advantage, it will more likely be able to reproduce and pass on that gene to future generations.

Like, with what did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce?

I recommend this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w0FiwfyUMM

Evolution is difficult to understand because of how vastly complex it actually is, but there is alot known about it and with some research it becomes much easier to take in.

Originally Posted by shadowofhyrule

Mutation can be brought about randomly yes, but its whether or not this change is beneficial that decides if it becomes part of the genome of the organism of not. If the mutation is not beneficial for the organisms survival, then it won't increase its ability to reproduce and pass on that trait and it won't be prevailent. If its detrimental it will hinder its ability to reproduce and thus not be passed on. If its beneficial and gives the organism an advantage, it will more likely be able to reproduce and pass on that gene to future generations.

Evolution is difficult to understand because of how vastly complex it actually is, but there is alot known about it and with some research it becomes much easier to take in.

Well, yes, I know all about natural selection and the idea behind beneficial mutations and the increased likelihood of passing on the said mutations to offspring if they advantageously contribute to reproduction... But what I was asking was how new genetic information comes about, not just how rearranged information comes about. And my other major questions are still unanswered.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by AndrewSky94

I think Spore can simply explain all the questions the people of this thread have...

Spore, as in the video game? If only...!

Well, yes, I know all about natural selection and the idea behind beneficial mutations and the increased likelihood of passing on the said mutations to offspring if they advantageously contribute to reproduction... But what I was asking was how new genetic information comes about, not just how rearranged information comes about. And my other major questions are still unanswered.

If I'm correct, DNA is a base-4 system (A,C,G,T). For simplicity's sake, I'll use 0,1,2,3 because I'm a programmer. Let's say each of these strings mean something to you

01332
20332
1123
002310001

If, for whatever reason, a number gets tacked onto the first so that it becomes 013321 then that is new information. If one is removed so that the last becomes 00231000 then that is new information. If the middle two are rearranged to become 11332 then that is new information that can be decoded.

This is only my understanding. Can anybody more knowledgeable confirm/deny this?

There are different kinds of mutations. Genetic material (the addition of nucleotide bases) can be added through insertions, subtracted through deletions, rearranged through translocations, and changed by one base switching to another.
.

You can rearrange the letters of the English alphabet all day, but you’ll never get Chinese, right?

That's a bad analogy. English and Chinese use different alphabets. The alphabet, or code, for all known living organisms is the same (AGTC). Three bases grouped together form a codon. 4^3 (4X4X4) = 64 possible codons. These codons are translated into amino acids, the building blocks of proteins.

Just as 26 letters are plenty to create countless words which are sufficient to create an unimaginable number of stories, 4 nucleotide bases, through a complex process, can create an unimaginable number of proteins.

Additionally, it doesn’t really make sense to me how, unless something impossibly mutated a perfectly working set of wings, for example, a small mutation to that effect would benefit the survival and reproductive ability of anything.

This is argument from irreducible complexity, which is to say that half (or part) of a given structure will not aid in the organism's fitness, and could thus never be selected for.

I'm no expert on the origin of flight, but I do know that feathers are thought to be modified scales. It is likely that they did not originally evolve for flight, but for warmth. That the bird lineage evolved feathers and not hair was probably a matter of chance (do note that mammals are also thought to have descended from reptiles). So perhaps feathers were initially selected for their warmth. Over time, it just so happened that they were also useful for flight. Now, instead of being selected for their ability to warm, they were selected for their ability to produce flight. of course, one trait does not evolve in a vacuum; the move towards flight meant that the birds other features were also adapted to thrive in an aerial niche.

Like, with what did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce?

That is an important question that is a bit beyond my knowledge for the time being. I would appreciate if someone else could provide a more satisfying and elaborate explanation, but I'm guessing that sexual reproduction founds its origins in the swapping of genetic material in bacteria.

Or, which evolved first: the lungs, the mucus lining to protect them, the throat, or the mixture of gases to be breathed into the lungs?

This is the irreducible complexity argument again. If you're truly interested, it is not hard to find reliable (and often beautiful) explanations on how these structures evolved. While these explanations are unavoidably post hoc, they are strongly supported by anatomical considerations. There is no reason to place credence in the "irreducible complexity" of any particular structure because the evidence for evolution as a whole is so strong. Failure to explain how a structure came to be is simply a failure of the imagination.

Why did fish change to amphibians, and how in the world did their intermediate forms stay alive?

The force that eventually drove organisms to colonize the land was competition (or lack thereof) for resources. An organism that could exploit that virgin niche would reap massive benefits. Thus, organisms that came closer and closer to doing just that (i.e. surviving in fresh water, then surviving on land for a short time, then developing the equipment to thrive on land--legs and lungs for two) were selected for.

Originally Posted by Drew

If I'm correct, DNA is a base-4 system (A,C,G,T). For simplicity's sake, I'll use 0,1,2,3 because I'm a programmer. Let's say each of these strings mean something to you

01332
20332
1123
002310001

If, for whatever reason, a number gets tacked onto the first so that it becomes 013321 then that is new information. If one is removed so that the last becomes 00231000 then that is new information. If the middle two are rearranged to become 11332 then that is new information that can be decoded.

This is only my understanding. Can anybody more knowledgeable confirm/deny this?

Actually, I've wondered about that. If binary is a two base system 0,1, would the complex possibilities of a four base DNA be a reason for everything that we see originating from it?

What about about the oncoming Quantum Computer. I can't really get into the mechanics behind how it works, but the end result is a programming unit known as the Qubit. In other words a charge can be both an 1 and 0 in the same space. So that could lead to four different Qubits, right? (0,0) (1,0) (0,1) (1,1), thus it will sort of be like DNA.

I might be very mistaken in my understanding of this system but if that's how it is in comparison to binary programming, then what do we have?

Perhaps we'll see more unintended phenomena in coding. There are already examples present in binary programs but maybe this phenomena will act in ways similar to...life? In other words the Quantum Computer itself create model by example of how life comes about.

Of course this is mostly hearsay thought up by a creative writer, but is there anything substantial or feasible to my conjecture?

I feel like I should point out - DNA can NOT be converted into binary. It's not as simple as a 4-base code just turning into a protein. For example:
-The bases themselves have physical and chemical properties that play a huge role in determining the product. For example, adenine will have a different affinity for other regulating molecules than thiamine. Bases can be attracted to each other, causing the DNA to tangle into specific shapes as well.
-Regulating gene expression is just as important as the genes themselves. Without gene regulation, we would just be single-celled organisms.
-There are actually more than 4 bases. The standard 4 bases can be modified by things like methylation, which modify their meaning. (Actually, it's because of DNA methylation that cloning animals gives them developmental disorders. We haven't figured out how to copy methylation patterns).
-The DNA sequence is not the protein sequence. On the way to forming a protein, DNA is chopped up into pieces and reattached. Usually the majority of a gene's DNA is removed in this process (called splicing). Even the amino acid sequence doesn't always match its protein, because they often have to combine with carbohydrates to form the final product.

Anyway, the list goes on. Just thought I'd come make your lives difficult

Originally Posted by Caelum

Well, yes, I know all about natural selection and the idea behind beneficial mutations and the increased likelihood of passing on the said mutations to offspring if they advantageously contribute to reproduction... But what I was asking was how new genetic information comes about, not just how rearranged information comes about. And my other major questions are still unanswered.

Your question will remain unanswered until you tell us what you mean by "information". It's an abstract term that can refer to a large number of things. So, on a molecular level, how do you define information? Tell me that, and I'll tell you how it arises.

Originally Posted by Dingo

What about about the oncoming Quantum Computer. I can't really get into the mechanics behind how it works, but the end result is a programming unit known as the Qubit. In other words a charge can be both an 1 and 0 in the same space. So that could lead to four different Qubits, right? (0,0) (1,0) (0,1) (1,1), thus it will sort of be like DNA.

Actually the difference between bit-structures in traditional and quantum computing are of kind - not degree - and the benefits arise less directly*. In traditional computing each bit something like a coin lying flat on a table: read as either definitely heads (1) or definitely tails (0). In quantum computing each qubit is something like a coin spinning through the air: there is some chance it will be read heads (1) and a complimentary chance it will be read tails (0) (with a coin, of course, the chance of either is .5. A qubit can hypothetically be engineered to any probabilistic "superstate").

*The "benefits" of Quantum Computing are simply (hopefully massive) gains in efficiency. There's no function lacking in traditional computers (or massive toilet-paper-and-roll based Turing Machines) that is available to a quantum computers.

Originally Posted by Mad Hatter

I feel like I should point out - DNA can NOT be converted into binary.

Actually it can. With 4 nucleotide bases all one would need to do is use 2 bits to represent each base

Ie.

00 guanine
01 adenine
10 cytosine
11 uracil/thiamine

The compiling simply stores the sequence of the genes.

Originally Posted by shadowofhyrule

Actually it can. With 4 nucleotide bases all one would need to do is use 2 bits to represent each base

Ie.

00 guanine
01 adenine
10 cytosine
11 uracil/thiamine

The compiling simply stores the sequence of the genes.

I think you missed my point. If genes were purely a 4-base code, then yes, you could. But I made a list of reasons why it is much more complicated than that.