Openly Religious (Enviously Religious)

I've been feeling a little contemplative lately. Mostly religion, after life, death, life, ect. Some friends and family of mine seem to have a deep disdain for organized religion. I'm not exactly a fan myself but I've had a lot of time to think of it lately. As far as I hear, most people who hate organized religion state their reason for doing so is that most of the major wars have been fought in the name of religion in one way or another. This is true. Indeed, humans in general have been known to kill graciously in the name of "my god is better then yours" in what can only be called the worlds greatest pissing contest. Most of these people, the people who hate organized religion, would call me a fool for defending religious people, but perhaps I am getting ahead of myself. I myself tend to naturally conclude that the thought of an afterlife is somewhat juvenile, however I hate that I can't help but come to this realization. Whereas atheistic and agnostic people love the fact that they can "think logically about the afterlife or lack thereof", indeed I envy those who are religious. I wake up every morning and my first thought is "What if I die today?" Which gives way to "Where do I go when I die." My automatic realization is nothing, nothing happens, I die and poof that's it. This wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for the fact that the idea of not existing and even worse, not having free thought, scares the piss out of me. So every morning I think of just how crappy the lack of an afterlife is, it sucks. I usually either force myself into thinking of something else entirely unrelated or force myself into a temporary state of mild belief to get me through the morning. Compare this to the wake up of a TRULY religious person. They wake up whistling hymns. If they think "what if I die" or "what happens after I die" they have an answer! A damn good one at that! Man that's awesome, it really is. Some would call it cowardice, some would call it foolishness, I call it the greatest mental manipulation for the greater good of men in human history. Now the cons. While I love organized religion for the previously stated reason, I also have reasons to dislike it. Chiefly among these is, of course, the stereotypical "It makes people kill other people" reason. As I previously stated, this is all in all true. Don't believe me? Inquisition. Anyways, this cosmic pissing contest has claimed the lives of many a man, women, and child. This is undeniable. And indeed, Christianity is perhaps the worst of this. We Christians are solely responsible for the retardation of science in general, the killing of many things, and several other "events" that could easily be seen as atrocities. Religion has used many tools through history, brainwashing, torture, murder, even extortion. In the end, is religion something to be cherished or feared? Honestly, I don't know. And neither do you. Religion effects everyone differently I suppose. Where as it drives some to murderous rampages, can you even imagine how many people would kill if they DIDN'T think it was a sin. In order to keep a child from drawing on the walls you threaten to spank him. In order to keep an adult from killing you threaten to send him to hell. These are facts. Sigh, I don't know. My mind, in it's attempt to make sense of things, tends to just walk circles around itself, tearing itself between the logical and the wishful. I'll find the answer one day, and it may well kill me. I just want to make sure of where I am/aren't going before I do. Later peeps. Feel free to comment your opinion on this, I'll listen with an open mind I assure you.

thank you for putting into words exactly how I feel every day. I have nothing to contribute because I am in this same boat. Except I come from a more religious family. Not crazy-religious, but almost there.

If you want to believe in God simply for the idea of an afterlife, then you admire religion for the wrong reasons. Theists believe in God for the same reason that atheists don't believe... they see an order to the Universe, an awe-inspiring majesty in which "beauty is truth". They notice that some truths are universal, and they put their faith in what they believe. A true believer WANTS God to exist, not because they're afraid of an absence of an afterlife, but because they have a firm determination that the ideals that their God represents are the only thing WORTH believing. For atheists, those ideals are "logic", "rationality" and "goodness", for theists... well, it depends on the religion, but they usually also include "goodness". People believe in different paths, but in truth, everyone wants to believe in a better world.

Except the psychopath scumbags, but you'll find a few of those in every camp. If Christianity didn't exist, people would've held Inquisitions for different reasons. Why, the McCarthy witch hunts were named because they were so similar to the supposedly "religious" witch hunts of old. But the McCarthy version was based on politics.

As I see it, people persecute other people for being different - whether or not those differences are religious, political, racial or what have you is largely irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Margar

thank you for putting into words exactly how I feel every day. I have nothing to contribute because I am in this same boat. Except I come from a more religious family. Not crazy-religious, but almost there.

Most of my family is quite religious, and I was raised to be as such. in the "family and friends" part of the little rant at the beginning, the family is referring to my brother in law and my sister, who both, especially my bro in law, had a major hand in my mental outlook development. It is their disdain for religion that I am referring to.

Originally Posted by sage_of_fire

Most of my family is quite religious, and I was raised to be as such. in the "family and friends" part of the little rant at the beginning, the family is referring to my brother in law and my sister, who both, especially my bro in law, had a major hand in my mental outlook development. It is their disdain for religion that I am referring to.

Oh, alrighty.

Study theology, and the history of religion. What annoys me most about rebel teen atheists is not that I think they're wrong, but they're usually quite ignorant about what religion actually is and the real intricacies that pervaded things such as the Inquisition.

Originally Posted by Evilsbane

If you want to believe in God simply for the idea of an afterlife, then you admire religion for the wrong reasons. Theists believe in God for the same reason that atheists don't believe... they see an order to the Universe, an awe-inspiring majesty in which "beauty is truth". They notice that some truths are universal, and they put their faith in what they believe. A true believer WANTS God to exist, not because they're afraid of an absence of an afterlife, but because they have a firm determination that the ideals that their God represents are the only thing WORTH believing. For atheists, those ideals are "logic", "rationality" and "goodness", for theists... well, it depends on the religion, but they usually also include "goodness". People believe in different paths, but in truth, everyone wants to believe in a better world.

Except the psychopath scumbags, but you'll find a few of those in every camp. If Christianity didn't exist, people would've held Inquisitions for different reasons. Why, the McCarthy witch hunts were named because they were so similar to the supposedly "religious" witch hunts of old. But the McCarthy version was based on politics.

As I see it, people persecute other people for being different - whether or not those differences are religious, political, racial or what have you is largely irrelevant.

I completely agree with this. I couldn't have put it any better than this.

Originally Posted by sage_of_fire

As far as I hear, most people who hate organized religion state their reason for doing so is that most of the major wars have been fought in the name of religion in one way or another.

Not true at all. There have been very few "religious" wars. And even those wars were rarely focused on religion, but merely territorial or political wars where religion was thrown in to make the war more appealing. In any case, the last "religious" war was the 30 Years War, which was nearly 400 years ago.

Actually, the current war of the Middle East is a religious war that has Jews against Muslims and vice-versa, but has its origins in both politics AND religion.

Originally Posted by Forgotten Queen

Actually, the current war of the Middle East is a religious war that has Jews against Muslims and vice-versa, but has its origins in both politics AND religion.

I was mostly talking from a Christian standpoint, since I assumed the OP was Christian. And it is true, there hasn't been a Christain religious war since the 1640s.

However, yes, religion does play a part in the conflict between Israel and it neighbors. However, I would say that anitwestern sentiments from most of the Middle East play just as large if not more a part. Its the fact that Israel has western backing, not that they are Jews that is causing the majority of the conflict.

The sad thing is though that both theists of all kinds (monotheists, polytheists, etc.) and atheists even among themselves disagree with each other. (Ex: Jews, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Pagans, etc.)

Yeah

It would be nice to be able to realistically believe that there is more life beyond this one, but I can't logically believe that. I'm not going to lie to myself to make myself feel better. Believing that this is the only life you've got may make some people take it more seriously (This is your only chance, don't mess it up) sort of thing.

Originally Posted by Hell Hawk

Not true at all. There have been very few "religious" wars. And even those wars were rarely focused on religion, but merely territorial or political wars where religion was thrown in to make the war more appealing. In any case, the last "religious" war was the 30 Years War, which was nearly 400 years ago.

That is true. Religion is mainly used as an excuse to drive one's political ambitions in these situations. Some wars even today use religion to justify their deeds which is just plain wrong.

meh, shallow faith to get you through the day is a cop-out imho.
sincerely researched and intellectually fought-for faith is very rare and I respect those who have it.
clingy faith is endearing but seems more destructive than helpful, unless you happen to be in a profession which requires creative thinking.
People who are trying to be pretentious towards God because of the actions of mortal men could probably be called mildly retarded, but my standards of intelligence are fairly high.
you don't need religion to be spiritual or even complacent about life, if that's what you are looking for.
Tao really isn't a religion like Judaism or Christianity or Islam is a religion, although some western thinkers actually have the arrogance and audacity to say otherwise.

meh.

/rant

I'm going to say I disagree with the OP, on the idea that religion is the reason many wars have been fought. If there were no Christianity, pretty much lack of any religion, these wars would have been fought anyway. Leaders use religion as a reason and a scapegoat to get masses involved, "fight for their religion," and die in vain. Most religions don't even condone violence, so causing violence in the name of religion is inane in itself.

Holy block of text Batman!
I almost did think you were dead I haven't talked to you in so long.

Anyways, I know what you mean. I can't say my debate of it's given me as much toruble as it seems to have for you, but it's anoying sometimes. I can't seem to fathom just nothing. At first I try to think of it and I hear nothing and see nothing, but then I think, no, it's wrong. I just plain wouldn't hear or see, or even think. I can't imagine that. And I'm sure that is where the idea of the afterlife originated.

In fact, that's how relgious beliefs came about in the first place. It was a way to explains things which could not be explained. Science has been able to explain a good ammount of it so far but that's one thing there is no explination for because no one has been able to make any reports or record findings after brain function stops.

I think I'm rambling now. I know what you mean, but I don't think I can really offer any help.

Originally Posted by Prof. Fish

Study theology, and the history of religion. What annoys me most about rebel teen atheists is not that I think they're wrong, but they're usually quite ignorant about what religion actually is and the real intricacies that pervaded things such as the Inquisition.

I couldn't agree more. Almost like it's just the cool thing to be athiest.

Originally Posted by sage_of_fire

Christians are solely responsible for the retardation of science in general,

I think I should let you know that Christians have been among some of the greatest scientists ever. Sir Isaac Newton, Robert Grosseteste, Dietrich Von Freiberg, Roger Bacon, Thomas Bradwardine, Nicholas of Cusa, Nicolaus Coperrnicus, Johannes Kepler, Galileo Galilei, Blaise Pascal, Robert Boyle, Antoni van Leeuwenhoek, Carolus Linnaeus, John Dalton, Gregor Mendel, Michael Faraday, and James Joule, to name some.

And you say that religions cause bloody wars. What about communism?

Also, you can't lump all religions together. Last time I checked, Christians don't hijack planes or perform suicide bombings.

Why fret about the afterlife? You've already experienced non-existence before, the billions of years you weren't alive It's just like going into a dreamless sleep, you immediately arrive in the next day.

Originally Posted by Mattocks

Holy block of text Batman!
I almost did think you were dead I haven't talked to you in so long.

Anyways, I know what you mean. I can't say my debate of it's given me as much toruble as it seems to have for you, but it's anoying sometimes. I can't seem to fathom just nothing. At first I try to think of it and I hear nothing and see nothing, but then I think, no, it's wrong. I just plain wouldn't hear or see, or even think. I can't imagine that. And I'm sure that is where the idea of the afterlife originated.

In fact, that's how relgious beliefs came about in the first place. It was a way to explains things which could not be explained. Science has been able to explain a good ammount of it so far but that's one thing there is no explination for because no one has been able to make any reports or record findings after brain function stops.

I think I'm rambling now. I know what you mean, but I don't think I can really offer any help.



I couldn't agree more. Almost like it's just the cool thing to be athiest. I'm Mattocks and I think people are dead just because they haven't been around in a while blah blah blah

Of course I'm alive, I'll always be alive (really crappy joke considering the subject of this thread but oh well). See, you seem to have the opposite problem of me, you say you can't fathom nothing, meanwhile that's all I seem to be able to fathom. Also, of subject, you're a Mod now? Dude....sweet.

Originally Posted by Tsukuyomi

I think I should let you know that Christians have been among some of the greatest scientists ever. Sir Isaac Newton, Robert Grosseteste, Dietrich Von Freiberg, Roger Bacon, Thomas Bradwardine, Nicholas of Cusa, Nicolaus Coperrnicus, Johannes Kepler, Galileo Galilei, Blaise Pascal, Robert Boyle, Antoni van Leeuwenhoek, Carolus Linnaeus, John Dalton, Gregor Mendel, Michael Faraday, and James Joule, to name some.

And you say that religions cause bloody wars. What about communism?

Also, you can't lump all religions together. Last time I checked, Christians don't hijack planes or perform suicide bombings.

I'll give you this, seeing that line taken out by itself makes me think I should remove "solely" from that sentence, but my point remains valid. And it's not just Christianity, think back to ancient Greece. I believe it was Socrates who was forced to drink poison for teaching the young of Athens to think for themselves. And no, as far as I know there are no confirmed reports of Christians hijacking planes (which I assume is a shot at Muslims, tsk tsk) but that's not to say they're immaculate. Thou art born into sin my friend, ACCORDING to Christianity. Look into the background of some criminals, real and ficticious, and you'll see a disturbing similarity in terms of religion. In all actuality this is due to Christianity being such a popular and widespread religion but a good debater could easily turn this into something it shouldn't be twisted into.

Originally Posted by Tsukuyomi

I think I should let you know that Christians have been among some of the greatest scientists ever. Sir Isaac Newton, Robert Grosseteste, Dietrich Von Freiberg, Roger Bacon, Thomas Bradwardine, Nicholas of Cusa, Nicolaus Coperrnicus, Johannes Kepler, Galileo Galilei, Blaise Pascal, Robert Boyle, Antoni van Leeuwenhoek, Carolus Linnaeus, John Dalton, Gregor Mendel, Michael Faraday, and James Joule, to name some.

And you say that religions cause bloody wars. What about communism?

Also, you can't lump all religions together. Last time I checked, Christians don't hijack planes or perform suicide bombings.

You have a point, indeed. Back in the day, especially, Christians contributed a lot of science. And also, yes, communism did cause some bloody wars, but that doesn't mean religion DIDN'T cause some wars.

And actually Christians have attempted to bomb abortion clinics. Ever heard of the Army of God? Wikipedia is your friend. Any religion can have an extremist sect. Westboro is a terrorist group, the only difference is that they are psychological terrorists.