Where does the universe come from?

Originally Posted by Warrior of the Nine

Man fell due to the influences of Satan. The universe is flawed because we either do not understand it, or Satan's influence had corrupted it. I do give science it's credit, but I believe that credit also belongs to God.

Satan makes black holes consume stars and planets? He collides the galaxies? Why?

There are scientific explanations for those things. It's just the way thingss are. We live and die, because Satan caused man to fall. God cursed the land because of it, who's to say the universe wasn't affected as well? Satan tempts man to sin every day. He wants us to suffer. Black holes and Colliding Universes probably have their purpose, we just don't understand it yet.

Originally Posted by Warrior of the Nine

The Big Bang Theroy is just that a theory.

The Theory of Gravity is just that a theory.
Cell Theory is just that a theory.
Quantum Theory is just that a theory.
The Theory of Relativity is just that a theory.
The Theory of Plate Tectonics is just that a theory.
Chaos Theory is just that a theory.
The Theory of Evolution is just that a theory.
The Theory of Radioactivity is just that a theory.
The Theory of Molecular Bonds is just that a theory.
The Theory of Thermodynamics is just that a theory.

Originally Posted by mmmmm_PIE

An infinite amount of time since what?

Since forever-ago.

Originally Posted by Warrior of the Nine

Man fell due to the influences of Satan. The universe is flawed because we either do not understand it, or Satan's influence had corrupted it. I do give science it's credit, but I believe that credit also belongs to God.

Why did God create Satan? That was pretty stupid.

Satan was one of the Angels, God created them to worship and praise Him. One day Lucifer/Satan decided he was better than God. He knew what was coming but he also knew alternative outcomes, he creates Satan because he believes in giving everyone a second chance. Even if they are going to wrong him in the future.

Originally Posted by Warrior of the Nine

Satan was one of the Angels, God created them to worship and praise Him. One day Lucifer/Satan decided he was better than God. He knew what was coming but he also knew alternative outcomes, he creates Satan because he believes in giving everyone a second chance. Even if they are going to wrong him in the future.

So he knew that Satan would rebel against him, and he knew that Satan would be responsible for everything bad in the world, and yet, he actively chose to create Satan? Doesn't this indirectly make God responsible for everything bad in the world?

You're not listening. I said God created Satan knowing he would rebel, because he believes in second chances. God is all knowing, Satan made his choice to take the wrong path, he could have taken a different path, that's why God still created him. You can blame God if you want to but I will blame Satan for rebelling against God in the first place.

Originally Posted by Warrior of the Nine

There are scientific explanations for those things. It's just the way thingss are. We live and die, because Satan caused man to fall. God cursed the land because of it, who's to say the universe wasn't affected as well? Satan tempts man to sin every day. He wants us to suffer. Black holes and Colliding Universes probably have their purpose, we just don't understand it yet.

No, I want an answer. Not, "It's their purpose." Otherwise, if that is a legitimate answer, why pursue knowledge? You just let faith pick up where science leaves off. That's picking and choosing friend.

You're not listening. I said God created Satan knowing he would rebel, because he believes in second chances. God is all knowing, Satan made his choice to take the wrong path, he could have taken a different path, that's why God still created him. You can blame God if you want to but I will blame Satan for rebelling against God in the first place.

So if God knew Satan would rebel, and Satan became all that is evil. It's God's fault that all evil exists because he didn't stop it.

*sigh* You still aren't listening. God gave Satan a second chance, like he has give us all a second chance. I say black holes have their purose and let faith pickup there science leaves off because science isn't there yet. I do not believe evil is God's fault because like him I believe in second chances. Satan tried to put himself above God and has been punished for it. Satan was trapped in hell, the fallen angels that followed Sata were not. Satan uses them to pollute the earth, and influece man to do wrong. God is inherently good, to say he is root of evil is just wrong. Yes he created Satan, he was giving him the chance to do the right thing even though he knew there was a chance for him to do the wrong thing. He gave one of his worst enemies a second chance, something we as humans seem incapable of doing.

Originally Posted by Warrior of the Nine

*sigh* You still aren't listening. God gave Satan a second chance, like he has give us all a second chance.

But God CREATED Satan knowing all of this would occur in the first place. Why did God create Satan, and why did God intentionally create Satan with the specific design that would lead him to rebel against God?

meh it's the problem of evil again.

*headache*

Again you fail to listen. God did not create Satan to rebel but to praise him. Satan was given a second chance by the act of God creating him. God knew there were two paths for Satan to take, the good and the bad. Satan chose the wrong one. God knew there was that possibility, but he gave Satan a second chance, he gave him a chance to do what was right.

Originally Posted by Warrior of the Nine

*sigh* You still aren't listening. God gave Satan a second chance, like he has give us all a second chance. I say black holes have their purose and let faith pickup there science leaves off because science isn't there yet. I do not believe evil is God's fault because like him I believe in second chances. Satan tried to put himself above God and has been punished for it. Satan was trapped in hell, the fallen angels that followed Sata were not. Satan uses them to pollute the earth, and influece man to do wrong. God is inherently good, to say he is root of evil is just wrong. Yes he created Satan, he was giving him the chance to do the right thing even though he knew there was a chance for him to do the wrong thing. He gave one of his worst enemies a second chance, something we as humans seem incapable of doing.

And because he gave him a second chance, he is doing what he is doing, ergo, it's God's fault. Remember, God knew about this in advance.

Would you agree to giving any sort of killer or brutal dictator a second chance?

Originally Posted by Flames of Valor

And because he gave him a second chance, he is doing what he is doing, ergo, it's God's fault. Remember, God knew about this in advance.

Would you agree to giving any sort of killer or brutal dictator a second chance?

As I said we as humans are incapable of doing so. God gave Satan the chance to do what was right. It's not as though Satan rebelled immediately after being created.

Originally Posted by Warrior of the Nine

As I said we as humans are incapable of doing so. God gave Satan the chance to do what was right. It's not as though Satan rebelled immediately after being created.

That's not what I asked. I asked would you allow a brutal dictator or murderer to have a second chance?

Regardless of how long it was, God didn't stop it, and he let his people suffer for it. Is that righteous?

Originally Posted by Warrior of the Nine

The Big Bang Theroy is just that a theory.

what does "just a theory" mean? It suggests that something could be more than a theory, which doesn't make any sense. The theory of gravity is a theory too. As is the theory of plate tectonics and the theory that the Earth orbits the Sun.

the germ theory of disease is "just a theory" but I don't see anyone in their right mind trying to argue that demonic possession rather than the H1N1/09 virus is responsible for the swine flu pandemic.

if something is a scientific theory that means it has a whole lot of evidence proving it--and none against it. A theory isn't just a guess or an uncertain possibility. It is the simplest explanation that accounts for every piece of evidence. There isn't anything more than a theory, so "just a theory" doesn't mean anything.

My belief is that God created the universe. I am not the one to say as to how this was done, but God is all Powerful, all Knowing, and Omipresent. He created the universe in his infinite wisdom. Many people believe that coming up with a "scientific" explanation, explains away God.

well the scientific explanation at least makes God unnecessary.

Whose to say God didn't use the method they found for how something was done, or for how the uiverse operates.

Occam.

well actually no one. But who's to say that it wasn't Thor or Zeus instead of God? Who's to say that the Universe isn't just some complex computer program being run on a supercomputer built by an alien species of invisible pink unicorns?

no need to make things more complicated then they need to be.

I like to believe that God created the universe.

that's nice. I like to believe that we're actually all in the Matrix.

too bad my beliefs don't affect reality. :'(

I would love to know the "Scientific" explanations as well, but I will always believe that things work the way they do because God made them that way.

I noticed this the other time you did it too, but why the hell did you put the word "scientific" in quotes? It seems entirely inappropriate and grammatically inaccurate.

also, stating that you will "always believe" no mater what is quite close-minded and idiotic. How can you be so sure in anything that nothing could possibly change your mind?

Originally Posted by Warrior of the Nine

Man fell due to the influences of Satan. The universe is flawed because we either do not understand it, or Satan's influence had corrupted it. I do give science it's credit, but I believe that credit also belongs to God.

so why did God give Satan all this power to corrupt things? That doesn't seem like a very smart thing to do. Couldn't God, like, banish Satan from eternity or something? Or kill him?

Originally Posted by mmmmm_PIE

An infinite amount of time since what?

an infinite amount of time since an infinite amount of time ago. :/

Originally Posted by Warrior of the Nine

There are scientific explanations for those things. It's just the way thingss are. We live and die, because Satan caused man to fall.

so why did God give Satan the power to cause man to fall? Why didn't God prevent this from happening?

God cursed the land because of it, who's to say the universe wasn't affected as well? Satan tempts man to sin every day. He wants us to suffer.

and God doesn't seem to care, since he hasn't tried to stop Satan yet apparently.

Originally Posted by Warrior of the Nine

Satan was one of the Angels, God created them to worship and praise Him. One day Lucifer/Satan decided he was better than God.

why did God even give one of his angels this capability?

He knew what was coming but he also knew alternative outcomes, he creates Satan because he believes in giving everyone a second chance. Even if they are going to wrong him in the future.

God knew that Satan would wrong him in the future and did nothing about it.

he's omnipotent. He could have prevented it from happening. He could have made Satan a more loyal angel.

Originally Posted by Warrior of the Nine

You're not listening. I said God created Satan knowing he would rebel, because he believes in second chances.

God is all-knowing. He already knew that Satan wouldn't take any "second-chances" even if he was given any.

God is all knowing, Satan made his choice to take the wrong path, he could have taken a different path, that's why God still created him.

no, he could not have taken a different path. God already knew what Satan would do. Satan didn't have any choice in his future because God already knew that Satan would rebel.

You can blame God if you want to but I will blame Satan for rebelling against God in the first place.

I can't blame Satan. He didn't do anything that God didn't design him to do.

look at it this way: everything is God's fault. Everything that happens ever. Why? Because God is omnipotent, omniscient, and created the Universe. The Universe is deterministic, or at least, the one that this God created must be. Determinism means that everything that happens has a cause. Everything is just a big chain of cause and effect, which can be traced all the way back to the beginning of the Universe (the first thing that ever happened, which we'll call the Prime Cause. It caused the next thing that happened and it just goes on from there).

this must be true if God is omniscient. If God knows everything that is going to happen that means there can be no surprises and no randomness. Nothing happens that isn't caused by the Prime Cause. Everything that happens is an inevitable result of determinism and there are no alternatives. This means, incidentally, that there is no such thing as "free will." If you had an infinite number of choices that were caused by nothing other than your own will, rather than being determined by the Prime Cause, then there would be no way of predicting what choice you would make until you make that choice. Not even God could know what would happen until it happens. God is omniscient, so therefore neither you nor Satan have free will.

God created the Prime Cause and therefore he caused and is directly responsible for everything that the Prime Cause caused, which is everything. God is omnipotent, so he could have made the Prime Cause however he wanted too, or could intervene at any time to interrupt the chain of cause-and-effect. So anything bad that happens (like, say, Hurricane Katrina) was caused by God, who made the Universe in such a way that it was an inevitable effect of the Prime Cause. He also didn't bother to intervene, even though he certainly knew it would happen and had the power to stop it.

anyway, tl;dr: God is responsible for everything that happens. He is also evil.

(friggin' multi-quote broken for anyone else or is that just me?)

I answered your question, I said "We as humans are incapable of doing so. And God didn't stop it because He knew Satan had the possibility for good. God is Omnicient that's why he knew Satan had the possibility for good. Everything and everyone that has been created, has free will. Satan made the wrong choice. I refuse to blame God, for he has done nothing wrong. Satan is and always will be the cause. He made his choice and that was to betray his creator. God is the creator of the universe, we have free will. Tell me where did Katrina do the most damage? New Orleans. Where they held Mardi Gras. It was a celebration that goes againts Biblical priciples. He is a Good and Loving God, but he will punish those who wrong him. I will NEVER blame God for anything that is wrong in my life, everything has a purpose, Katrina brought the country together in a outpouring of help for those that were affected. God punished New Orleans, as He punished Soddom and Gomorra the corrupt cities from the Old Testament.

I don't think you read a word of what I said.

either God is omniscient or we have free will. Can't have both.

if you have free will then God can't possibly know what you're going to do until you do it.

God is all knowing which means we have free will and he knows EVERY possible outcome. That's what comes along with omnicience, and omnipresence.

Originally Posted by Warrior of the Nine

I answered your question, I said "We as humans are incapable of doing so."

That wasn't what I asked, I asked would YOU. But, since you refuse to answer I can only assume your group yourself with your general statement.

Originally Posted by Warrior of the Nine

God is omniscient

I said God created Satan knowing he would rebel

God did not create Satan to rebel but to praise him.

but I believe that credit also belongs to God.

I refuse to blame God, for he has done nothing wrong.

Tsk,Tsk,Tsk...

God obviously created Satan to rebel in order to show he 'gives second chances'. Like you said.

Satan's rebellion has resulted in all evil here,

Satan is and always will be the cause.

God is the cause of Satan. Therefore the blame falls on God. When you kick a ball and it hits a window, is it the ball's fault?

I said God created Satan knowing he would rebel

Everything and everyone that has been created, has free will. Satan made the wrong choice.

Satan had no choice, he was destined to rebel, this means all of his actions were pre-ordained and therefore, Satan didn't have a choice.

I will NEVER blame God for anything that is wrong in my life,

God is the creator of the universe,

And I'll blame the ball for my broken window.

Tell me where did Katrina do the most damage? New Orleans. Where they held Mardi Gras. It was a celebration that goes againts Biblical priciples. He is a Good and Loving God, but he will punish those who wrong him. I will NEVER blame God for anything that is wrong in my life, everything has a purpose, Katrina brought the country together in a outpouring of help for those that were affected. God punished New Orleans, as He punished Soddom and Gomorra the corrupt cities from the Old Testament.

Good going Jerry. (Cookie to who gets the joke)

God is all knowing which means we have free will and he knows EVERY possible outcome. That's what comes along with omnicience, and omnipresence.

If God knows the outcome of everything, then it is pre-determined, and therefore, we do not have free will.

Originally Posted by Warrior of the Nine

God is all knowing which means we have free will and he knows EVERY possible outcome. That's what comes along with omnicience, and omnipresence.

knowing every possible outcome isn't the same thing as knowing the actual outcome.

what you're saying is, essentially, God doesn't know what you're going to do but he does know all the different things you might do, which means, once again, he isn't omniscient.