Hell: Punishment or Torture?

Hell is the place where people suffer eternally, right? But there's there's a problem, how ever long it takes, someone is bound to be punished enough that they wil never ever sin again. So if someone is punished eternally, than surely that is torture? No?

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I, as a Christian, am not even convinced there is a hell. Theologically speaking, I think purgatory is much nearer the mark. Because no sin is infinite, nor is there any sin that extends beyond the reach of Divine Agape, hell makes no sense theologically to me. However, there is sin in the lives of each individual who has made this earthly pilgrimage. So I like to think that purgatory is a time of purgation for the sins one has committed in a lifetime. Whether one will stay there a short while (as we might expect a Martin Luther King, Jr. for instance) or a very long time (like Adolph Hitler) is dependent on one's deeds and faithfulness in life--regardless of creed, religion, or worldview, I would add. At the end of the time of trial and purgation, then the person is united with the Divine and the rest of the communion of the saved for all time.

So, in that respect, I'm actually something of a universalist.

I think of heaven and hell as follows:

God welcomes those into the perfect paradise who have faithfully striven to follow the good path by turning their back on evil and making reparation for whatever grave sins they commit. In truth these people are already in paradise in the sense that they have, in small or big ways, already brought heaven to their lives and others' lives. It is the paradise-makers who will inherit paradise in the afterlife.

If this is true, then it only follows that the reverse be true also; God will not welcome those who have turned their backs on the good path and who have failed through their own fault to turn from or repent for their wrongdoing. These people do not bring paradise to others; they are primarily and intentionally self-centered and use others for their own gain. These people are not allowed in paradise not because God does not love them, but for the simple fact that heaven cannot be paradise if such people are present.

Death is the final fork in the road. The direction we take is determined by what path our actions in life have placed us on, not insomuch by the judgment of God - despite this being the way Scripture views it. (In this sense I see Scripture's description of the judgment as being too primitive to grasp the fullness of the truth.)

Since all of us at some point or another dip our toes into the path of good, as long as we keep one foot firmly planted on the good road, God will pull us back. (This is the fairness of God as described in Scripture; God makes allowances for our stumblings, and if we faithfully desire to be good he will supply the necessary goodness. This is the formula for Salvation.)

But some of us also tread more than fleetingly into dark paths. Though they are technically within God's reach, God will not reach his hand to pull back those who are decidedly on these paths. (This, too, is fair. God allows us to choose our own path, and if we turn from goodness he will not hold us back.)

I suppose it is not altogether incorrect to call this "judgment," because it is true that God is really ultimately responsible for lending a hand for those he saves, since we all are in need of at least a small pull back to the good path. But we faithfully believe that God decides such things in accordance with our hearts, that the judgment is simply God responding to the truth.

Heaven is communion with God and the people of God.

Hell is the absence of God. I have my suspicions that the reason hell is eternal is because those who set themselves on that path are so far retreated into themselves that they are no longer aware of the dignity of others. And, in the absence of God, for them to achieve awareness of that dignity would be beyond their grasp. Those in hell would be, for all intents and purposes, completely alone, and so without opportunity to do good or to make reparation for misdeeds.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

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Since all of us at some point or another dip our toes into the path of good, as long as we keep one foot firmly planted on the good road, God will pull us back. (This is the fairness of God as described in Scripture; God makes allowances for our stumblings, and if we faithfully desire to be good he will supply the necessary goodness. This is the formula for Salvation.)

If Heaven is like that, then is it not like the Earth? Surely good people eventually succumb to self indulgense in such a realm.

Originally Posted by Phazon goron

If Heaven is like that, then is it not like the Earth? Surely good people eventually succumb to self indulgense in such a realm.

It wouldn't be like Earth in the sense that everyone is happy and feels no need to commit evil.

And I pretty much agree with Rew. I'm a Christian, yet I don't believe in Hell.

The way it is expressed by Dante is that in Hell, sinners live exactly as they do in life, but their self-imposed suffering is stripped of the façade of happiness; sin tortures the soul. Those who earnestly repent of their sens go through purgatory -- where the suffering is just as severe as in hell -- for a time proportional to their sins before going to heaven.

Those who did not repent get what they have been giving themselves, and, essentially what it is they desire in life -- only in their death realizing its true nature.

I don't know whether Dante's vision is supported by any christian denomination anymore, but I think it's lovely -- and since I don't subscribe to a religious worldview that includes heaven and/or hell, Dante's is for me the canonical description of Hell.

Originally Posted by Misty

It wouldn't be like Earth in the sense that everyone is happy and feels no need to commit evil.

Truly a satisfying (Spelling?) world, and yet, it brings the question of whether a Diety would do that in the first place.

Originally Posted by Rew

I, as a Christian, am not even convinced there is a hell. Theologically speaking, I think purgatory is much nearer the mark. Because no sin is infinite, nor is there any sin that extends beyond the reach of Divine Agape, hell makes no sense theologically to me. However, there is sin in the lives of each individual who has made this earthly pilgrimage. So I like to think that purgatory is a time of purgation for the sins one has committed in a lifetime. Whether one will stay there a short while (as we might expect a Martin Luther King, Jr. for instance) or a very long time (like Adolph Hitler) is dependent on one's deeds and faithfulness in life--regardless of creed, religion, or worldview, I would add. At the end of the time of trial and purgation, then the person is united with the Divine and the rest of the communion of the saved for all time.

So, in that respect, I'm actually something of a universalist.

I agree with this. I too am a Christian, but I have a hard time believing that God would punish a person for committing sins during their 80-90 year life for all ETERNITY.

Um...hmm....

Hell is better than becoming nonexistant. I've said it before and nobody understood me. They never will, and if you disagree, then you don't understand. It is the only time I'd ever say that. Most of the time, basically all of the time, if you understand something, you can agree or disagree, but this is the only acceptiuon. If you agree, you understand, if you disagree, you don't understand. There is no understanding and disagreeing, because the fact that you disagree proves you don't fully understand, or are not focusing on it enough. Now, I dearly hope nobody quotes me on this, because I know that maybe everybody disagrees with everything I have said so far. So please, save me and yourself the time by not talking to me or talking to other people about me. I stated my opinion, now all is done.

But, I wouldn't say Hell was a torture or punishment. Even if I thought it existed, I wouldn't think of it as either. Hell is what you make for yourself, actually. It all depends on how you think about it.

well I don't think Hell exists so it doesn't really concern me.


but yeah, eternal punishment is inherently unjust and evil.

since no person can commit an infinite crime in their finite life, no person can deserve an infinite punishment in their infinite afterlife.

Originally Posted by Sebastian

Um...hmm....

Hell is better than becoming nonexistant.

how can eternal punishment be better than not existing? Nothing can be better or worse than nonexistence because nonexistence is nothing. It's not an experience. It's the utter lack of being anything at all. If you didn't exist you wouldn't know that you didn't exist. There would be nothing to complain about.

I've said it before and nobody understood me. They never will, and if you disagree, then you don't understand. It is the only time I'd ever say that. Most of the time, basically all of the time, if you understand something, you can agree or disagree, but this is the only acceptiuon. If you agree, you understand, if you disagree, you don't understand. There is no understanding and disagreeing, because the fact that you disagree proves you don't fully understand, or are not focusing on it enough.

so basically what you're saying is that your word is absolute and perfectly correct and if anyone even so much as dares to disagree with you they must be wrong?

I'm sorry, but that's just absurd.

Now, I dearly hope nobody quotes me on this, because I know that maybe everybody disagrees with everything I have said so far. So please, save me and yourself the time by not talking to me or talking to other people about me. I stated my opinion, now all is done.

sorry, but this is the Serious Discussion board. When you make a claim here, you aren't just stating an opinion, you're beginning an argument. So be prepared to defend your point, or at least for other people to argue against your point.

Hell can't be all fire and brimstone and giant demons pushing people into fires for all eternity. That whole thing is a load of crap meant to scare a bunch of Iron Age goatherds into submission to authority.

There is no hell.

I believe anyone with even a sin as small as an atom will enter Hell but not for torture but for punishment and purification. The purification process gradually burns away all the sins off of the human and makes him a non-sinner, then the non-sinner is allowed to enter heaven. So even if people who have committed major sins like murder, rape and suicide will eventually get into heaven as long as they have even an atoms worth of goodness inside of them.

I have a question for those who believe Hell is a place for eternal damnation. I ask where did you hear that punishment in hell lasts for all eternity?
(this question also goes to those who use the "finite sin =/= infinite punishment" argument to "prove" Hell does not exist/God is evil)

I think people need to read the original poster more attentively. He is not asking if Hell is eternal punishment or torture. What he is asking is if Hell, as described in the Christian Bible (the typical fire and brimstone story), constitutes torture, in the sense that God is purposely being eternally negligent of all people who go there.

Originally Posted by motorman

I believe anyone with even a sin as small as an atom will enter Hell but not for torture but for punishment and purification. The purification process gradually burns away all the sins off of the human and makes him a non-sinner, then the non-sinner is allowed to enter heaven. So even if people who have committed major sins like murder, rape and suicide will eventually get into heaven as long as they have even an atoms worth of goodness inside of them.

That, my friend, would be purgatory.

Originally Posted by ɹɐǝqıɹǝ

I think people need to read the original poster more attentively. He is not asking if Hell is eternal punishment or torture. What he is asking is if Hell, as described in the Christian Bible (the typical fire and brimstone story), constitutes torture, in the sense that God is purposely being eternally negligent of all people who go there.

But which biblical vision of hell are we referring to then? There's more than one. Very likely the one you're thinking of is in Revelation, with the lake of fire lasting forever and ever. But that's only version, and in all likelihood the author didn't intend it to be taken literally (anymore than he intended a literal beast rising out of the sea or any of the other pieces of vivid imagery he used to be literal).

There's also hell as described in the Gospels as a place of darkness and gnashing of teeth, where worms don't die, but there's no mention of fire or torture (since that version of hell has more the feeling of expulsion or exile than as a physical punishment). There's also one picture of hell in Luke where a man is fixed in an uncrossable chasm from Father Abraham, but that story is a parable and again probably not meant to be taken as a literal description of a literal place. Moreover, hell, as an afterlife of punishment, is rarely if ever referenced in Acts or any of the epistles.

And let's not forget that the OT has almost no concept of the afterlife at all. The closest we get is later OT literature (like Daniel) that refers to a resurrection of the righteous. No concrete concepts of hell, though.

If anybody would be interested in reading a contemporary version of hell and purgatory--incidentally much more culturally relevant than Dante's version--then they might be interested in picking up Memnoch the Devil.

Excellent read and philosophically engaging.

Anyway, as for the OP:

Some would argue that hell is existing with nothing but an acute sense of self awareness.

in math language: it can be expressed as an asymptote that infinitely approaches zero, yet never completely disappears . . .

Originally Posted by motorman

I believe anyone with even a sin as small as an atom

Then, by that effect, Jesus is burnin' right as we speak.

Originally Posted by Phazon goron

If Heaven is like that, then is it not like the Earth?

That was about one's actions on Earth. If one moves earnestly towards good, God will give him the push he needs to become perfect in death. If one does not move earnestly towards good, God will not give him that push; he never wanted it.

@Trico: My vision of "what is hell like" is essentially a spin on Dante's.

Do you think that they waterboard in Hell?

Originally Posted by Artemicion

That was about one's actions on Earth. If one moves earnestly towards good, God will give him the push he needs to become perfect in death. If one does not move earnestly towards good, God will not give him that push; he never wanted it.

@Trico: My vision of "what is hell like" is essentially a spin on Dante's.

I ask you, freind. Have you read a book called: A "Clockwork Orange?"