Majora Vs. Ganon

Originally Posted by Abyss Master

As for the method of destroying Termina, yeah, a lot of stuff coincide with each other, but for what purpose? None, really, as far as I'm concerned. No purpose, no reason, that's why I write off Majora as insane rather than evil.

That judgement is obviously flawed. The elements that are drawn together are all relevant to the history of Termina, and the way the situation atop clock tower pans out is almost a strange mirror of past indicretions. Merely with the amount that coincides I see clear planning, I may not have discerned the complete purpose, but it essentially proves that Majora is not a random insane evil. Infact, according to other quotes of the title, Majora's Mask was also impart responsible for a variety of major plot elements. For example, Igos Du Ikana speaks of the curse on his kingdom, and is quoted;

It all happened after somebody thrust open the doors of that Stone Tower.

'somebody', I know, but the composer sharp (referencing Ikana's curse) had been tricked by one wearing a Mask.

We dead should not be lingering here in this land. It was all a trick of the masked one who had upset things.

Interestingly he says had - the masked one may be Skull Kid from recent events, or perhaps Majora's Mask may have indeed have deeper history in Ikana. It is probably the former, but either way, my point is made. A strange masked one is also known to have spoken to Aveil, leader of the pirates;

If what that strange, masked one says is true... And if we can get our hands on the treasure that lies sleeping in the temple in that dragon cloud... Then we can spend the rest of our lives living the good life!

As you can see, it is likely that Majora's Mask has been very active in Termina, again, likely mirroring, with the use of the Imp of legend, who "Wronged all people", in the past. Not a random insane evil.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

No, Link killed the evil inside of the mask in the ending of the game. The evil "left" because it had been annihilated.

Qoutes dont work when you make them up, The essence of majora left the mask. It did not die, defeat or dispate. Both MM and Nintendo have stated it LEFT the mask not died.

Originally Posted by Kiosk

That judgement is obviously flawed. The elements that are drawn together are all relevant to the history of Termina, and the way the situation atop clock tower pans out is almost a strange mirror of past indicretions. Merely with the amount that coincides I see clear planning, I may not have discerned the complete purpose, but it essentially proves that Majora is not a random insane evil. Infact, according to other quotes of the title, Majora's Mask was also impart responsible for a variety of major plot elements. For example, Igos Du Ikana speaks of the curse on his kingdom, and is quoted;

'somebody', I know, but the composer sharp (referencing Ikana's curse) had been tricked by one wearing a Mask.
Interestingly he says had - the masked one may be Skull Kid from recent events, or perhaps Majora's Mask may have indeed have deeper history in Ikana. It is probably the former, but either way, my point is made. A strange masked one is also known to have spoken to Aveil, leader of the pirates;

As you can see, it is likely that Majora's Mask has been very active in Termina, again, likely mirroring, with the use of the Imp of legend, who "Wronged all people", in the past. Not a random insane evil.

Firstly, I'd like to point out that it may very well have been the Skull Kid, wearing the mask obviously, and not the mask itself, who was behind the incidents you listed. Afterall, the Skull Kid would have reason to actually care about the legend of old, and also making sure the four giants remained dormant.

But let's say that it's the mask and not the Skull Kid who's setting the stage.

Purpose and reason, I said in my previous post. You need to tell me why Majora does all this, and if that reason makes him evil or not. If he comes up with a grand master plan, then good, but if that plan is supposed to serve no real purpose except destruction? It's obvious that the mask takes pleasure in other people's trouble and misery, but that's basically going back to the "no real reason" thing. If Ganondorf killed you, it's because he's malicious and seeking to control the world and you just happened to be in his way. I'd call him evil. If Majora killed you, it's because he felt like it. I'd call him crazy.

Not going to deedge up the responses people made to my post as they were along the same lines, so I'll try to answer as best from what I remember.

First up, I really made a mistake on the interpretation of the time travel. Honestly, my bad.
What I was trying to get at is that Majora planned out its attack very well, and the only apparant flaw is that it never anticipated or had protection against timetravel. From someone from a different dimension. Protected by a god.
I can't see how you can fault it for that.
I've also always considered the rewinding to be an essential strategic retreat. I never thought I won when I ran from the Guardian in FFVI, why would I think I'd won if I ran from doomsday?

I'm certain the mask took on characteristics of the Skullkid, the moon children represent him and the giants- (roughly) innocent spirits wearing the boss masks, the tree in the field centre- the clock tower in the middle of Termina, the dialogue of the children representing Skullkid's troubles. Once you've listened to them and essentially helped him he helps you by giving you the FD mask.
Finally I believe the mentality of Majora's Incarnation is just a reflection of the user- Skullkid and his childishness.

Finally, how could Link have won if he arrived roughly a month early, all other things withstanding. He would just be trapped in Clocktown as a Deku kid for a month. He'd just have to rewind time once, maybe twice.

EDIT: Forgot the insanity issue, I'm sure that Majora isn't actually insane but it all comes down to its motive. Problem is we have no idea of what its motives are, the best we can guess from the game is that it was hungry for planets. I really can't say.

I admit that Ganondorf is certainly the more powerful of them by far, but I'm trying to establish that Majora is far more of a threat than people give it credit.
Once again, keeping to the point of this thread I believe Majora is really more evil, it's been shown to be nothing short of a complete monster.
Ganondorf is certainly evil, but he isn't a mindless brute tormenting for a laugh, and I don't think he'd harm his own people, followers or Twinrova unless there was a reason. Even he has standards, selfish standards but standards nontheless.

Originally Posted by River Zora

I think the answer is simple.

If Ganon has the Triforce- he wins. It'd be ridiculously simple- he has the bloody Triforce- the gods' magic. Nothing compares to it as TP shows.

If Ganon is without the Triforce, ie: tWW, Majora would win hands down. He's a bleeedin' demon! Sure, ganon has a bit of Gerudo magic, but that's it without the Triforce.

Ganon had the Triforce of Power in WW. It's just that it had been inactive for about a third of the game. But even in that weakened state, he was able to alter the weather into a stormy night on possibly a global scale. That, and without a host body, Majora presumably never would've awakened.

I would say Ganondorf..Because he Holds the triforce of power, and trys to destroy Everything that is good. But he also wants to take over the land. However, I also think that Majora is just as equally or more equally evil. After all he did try to destroy the land of Tarmina with a big ass giant moon while Ganondorf only wanted to rule over Hyrule not destroy it completely...I think thats even more evil of a task then what Ganondorf wants hyrule for.

Destruction=/=evil get it throught your skulls!

Originally Posted by Celvantis

Qoutes dont work when you make them up, The essence of majora left the mask. It did not die, defeat or dispate.

In the final battle of MM, Link went into the moon and challenged the evil entity in the mask. He clearly harmed it, and when Link defeated Majora's Wrath it went limp, disintegrated, and then all of its creations were destroyed and its curses undone. It clearly died or was otherwise exterminated. It wasn't freed in any sense and if it was the game surely wouldn't have ended on a peaceful and rather happy note.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Finally, how could Link have won if he arrived roughly a month early, all other things withstanding. He would just be trapped in Clocktown as a Deku kid for a month. He'd just have to rewind time once, maybe twice.

The idea is that he'd wander into Termina on his own instead of being cursed.

How could it be dead and at large at the same time... It left the mask, PERIOD. Nintendo maintains a "nobody knows where it went" stance and thats how I like it, It may (and probably shouldnt) never return but the mystery and threat that it lingers on is more then enough.

Well, unlike the ambiguity of Majora's fate, Ganon is canonically shown to be revived/revitalized/freed from confinements on a consistent basis through various means. Depending on certain interpretations of chronology, Ganon may never have stayed dead.

gannondorf would rip majora in half if they fought

Keeping with the "who's more evil" title rather then "who's more powerful," in my opinion Majora wins for being the greater of two evils.

Ganondorf only became evil after he discovered the abilities of the Triforce, and even then that comes down to selfishness and greed which certainly are bad but not necessarily 'evil'. Once Ganondorf does obtain the Triforce of Power he's willing to destroy everything to maintain control of what he has, and that falls more along the lines of evil. Simply put, Ganondorf was not "evil" from birth and simply fell from grace.

Majora on the other hand has evidence that suggests it's the satanic figure of the Zelda series. It is incredibly ancient and has always been a manifestation of hatred and evil. Not only that, but it's willing to pull a moon from orbit and destroy Termina simply for the heck of it and gain nothing in return except for the gratification that everything living suffered.

Majora is more "evil" then Ganondorf, imo.

Originally Posted by Celvantis

How could it be dead and at large at the same time.

You've misunderstood what I was saying. I was saying that if the entity in the mask was freed instead of killed, the ending of MM being happy would make no sense. Because the ending of MM is happy, the entity in the mask was apparently annihilated after all and not freed in the slightest.

Originally Posted by Celvantis

Nintendo maintains a "nobody knows where it went" stance

No, the HMS just said that the evil had left the mask; obviously because the entity was dead since the player just killed it a moment ago.

Originally Posted by Emerald Sage

Ganondorf only became evil after he discovered the abilities of the Triforce, and even then that comes down to selfishness and greed which certainly are bad but not necessarily 'evil'.

However, keep in mind that Rauru called Ganondorf the "Evil Incarnation of Darkness" in OoT. Also, he was clearly evil before he gained the ToP.

Originally Posted by Emerald Sage

Majora on the other hand has evidence that suggests it's the satanic figure of the Zelda series.

That's not true. All we know is that it was a hexing mask that came to life. Being old and evil does not make it the Satan of the Zelda series.

Ganon all the way!! Majora just makes me giggle

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

That's not true. All we know is that it was a hexing mask that came to life. Being old and evil does not make it the Satan of the Zelda series.

Their are several reasons that suggest Majora is the satanic force of the Zelda series. The first, and most blantanly obvious is the appearance of the mask. It's characterized by the horns often associated with early depictions of the devil. Of course there are many horned enemies in the Zelda series including Ganon himself, so that's most likely not the best of examples. One other example is the location where you fight Majora: inside the tree on the grass plain that's located in the moon. This could be a metaphorical representation of the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden. Majora corrupted the innocence of the children who wear his masks (the four bosses you fight are also similar to Lucifer's four lead generals of hell from Paradise Lost) as the devil's serpent did to Adam and Eve. I myself am not a religious person, though the Zelda series is notoriously famous for using many religious metaphors and allusions from Islam, Christianity, and Hinduism. Here's a good article on ZU that points out of a things in Majora's Mask that seem to hint that Majora is the lead demonic presence: http://www.zeldauniverse.net/article...-majoras-mask/

Also there is no clear evidence that says Majora's Mask was simply a mask that came to life through hexing. In fact there is more evidence that implies a power demon (represented as the ancient tribe's hatred and malice) was sealed inside the mask.

Originally Posted by Emerald Sage

It's characterized by the horns often associated with early depictions of the devil.

It has spikes. That does not make it the devil in this series, seeing as how numerous enemies (including Ganon and Vaati) have/have had spikes and/or horns.

Originally Posted by Emerald Sage

One other example is the location where you fight Majora: inside the tree on the grass plain that's located in the moon. This could be a metaphorical representation of the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden.

You're pulling that out of thin air. If anything the field is representative of Skull Kid's mind, with the Tree being Clock Town/the Clock Tower, the crouching kid being Skull Kid, and the running kids being the Four Giants. Also, to shoot down the Eden argument, notice that when you play with the running kids and make them happy, they leave. Making people happy and being a friend does not go hand in hand with kicking a person out of paradise.

Originally Posted by Emerald Sage

Majora corrupted the innocence of the children who wear his masks (the four bosses you fight are also similar to Lucifer's four lead generals of hell from Paradise Lost)

Proof? Right now it sounds like you're grasping at straws.

Originally Posted by Emerald Sage

I myself am not a religious person, though the Zelda series is notoriously famous for using many religious metaphors and allusions from Islam, Christianity, and Hinduism.

Not that many. Also, since Nintendo had come under pressure from the Muslim community at the time for merely using a Muslim symbol, making a major connection to Christianity and Judaism in their next game would arguably be a needless risk.

Originally Posted by Emerald Sage

Here's a good article on ZU that points out of a things in Majora's Mask that seem to hint that Majora is the lead demonic presence: http://www.zeldauniverse.net/article...-majoras-mask/

I think that article frequently grasps at straws and is rather unsound.

Originally Posted by Emerald Sage

Also there is no clear evidence that says Majora's Mask was simply a mask that came to life through hexing.

Check the text.

Originally Posted by Happy Mask Shop Owner

実は ワタクシの盗まれた あの仮面・・・ ムジュラの仮面といって
The truth is, the mask that was stolen from me… is called Mujura’s Mask.
The mask that was stolen from me... It is called Majora's Mask.

太古の とある民族が 呪いの儀式で 使っていたとされる 伝説の 呪物なのです
A certain race in ancient times used it for their cursing ceremonies. It is a legendary fetish.
It is an accursed item from legend that is said to have been used by an ancient tribe in its hexing rituals.

その仮面をかぶった者には 邪悪で すさまじい力が宿ると 言い伝えられています
The legend says that the one who puts it on will have a terrible and evil power dwell within them.
It is said that an evil and wicked power is bestowed upon the one who wears that mask.

伝説では・・・
The legend says…
According to legend...

ムジュラの仮面が もたらす 災いの あまりの大きさに
The calamity brought about by Mujura’s Mask was so great that
the troubles caused by Majora's Mask were so great...

それを恐れた 先人たちが 仮面を悪用 されないよう 永遠の闇に 封じ込めたといいます
our ancestors who feared this sealed it within the eternal darkness so that it would not be misused.
the ancient ones, fearing such catastrophe, sealed the mask in shadow forever, preventing its misuse.

その力が どんな力なのか 伝説に 記された その民族が 滅びた 今では わかりません
What power does the mask hold? The race spoken of in the legend was destroyed, so we do not know.
But now, that tribe from the legend has vanished, so no one really knows the true nature of the mask's power...

・・・しかし、ワタクシは感じます
…But I can feel it.
...But I feel it.

苦労して手に入れた伝説の仮面 あれを 手にした時感じた 身の毛もよだつ まがまがしい力
I went through many hardships to get my hands on the legendary mask. And when I did so, I felt it. An ominous power that made my hair stand on end.
I went to great lengths to get that legendary mask. When I finally had it... I could sense the doom of a dark omen brewing. It was that unwelcome feeling that makes your hair stand on end.

This is what we are told about regarding Majora's Mask. Those are the only things known about it.

Also, the following is what an actual Japanese person who is aware of the cultural implications behind the mask had to say:

Originally Posted by MikePetersSucks

Taking that dialog and comparing it to things like Taoist magic or voodoo (the word "fetish" is really key here), it becomes clear that the mask was an artifact that, after being used symbolically for evil purposes, became demonic and full of evil power. Japanese legends, which Zelda often draws from, is full of these sorts of things, such as an old superstition that if you didn't clean off your sword, it would drink the blood of the people it killed and become a demon.

Originally Posted by Emerald Sage

In fact there is more evidence that implies a power demon (represented as the ancient tribe's hatred and malice) was sealed inside the mask.

No there isn't. As mentioned above, dark magic apparently brought the mask itself to life.

Originally Posted by Lunar6

Ganondorf's influence alone rendered the entire world in a stormy night while most of his power was WEAKENED, and it would've been endless if not for Link finding all three of the Goddess' pearls. Ganon warped the entire Sacred Realm into the Dark World with just the Triforce of Power (IIRC). He gained power of the Twilight Realm without even a physical body, and Ganon could actually beat Majora WHILE sitting atop his tower. He'll just do what he did to Phantom Ganon and banish the Skull Kid to the Gap Between Dimensions. Link only ever progressed so far in OOT because Ganon LET him.

That, and Ganondorf is virtually invulnerable to anything Majora could dish out, what with the fact that it takes Holy enchanted weapons to even faze him; Midna, while empowered by the full Fused Shadow, an item so powerful that the Gods demanded be locked away, was very easily defeated by Ganondorf. Majora is the exact opposite of what it takes to harm Ganon. Anything that does faze him even in the slightest, he'd just regenerate from ala Twilight Princess.

And for the record, yes, Ganondorf IS more evil.

Took the words out of my mouth. (More or less.)

That may be so, but Majora is a far better boss than Ganondorf ever was.

Originally Posted by MDK

That may be so, but Majora is a far better boss than Ganondorf ever was.

I disagree, Majora is only slightly more difficult than Ganon in some of the games (though Ganondorf usually is easy). When it comes to presentation and setting... really, the fight with Majora felt anything but epic. It was a small, weird room. Doesn't hold a candle to the Ganon fight in OoT or the Ganondorf fight in TP or WW.

Fighting Majora without the Fierce Deity mask is great, though.

Originally Posted by Abyss Master

I disagree, Majora is only slightly more difficult than Ganon in some of the games (though Ganondorf usually is easy). When it comes to presentation and setting... really, the fight with Majora felt anything but epic. It was a small, weird room. Doesn't hold a candle to the Ganon fight in OoT or the Ganondorf fight in TP or WW.

Fighting Majora without the Fierce Deity mask is great, though.

It's much easier to put into perspective once you've beaten them both with the absolute bare minimum - i.e. using nothing more than you actually need to beat them. For the sake of argument, let's take OOT's Ganondorf:

Ganondorf: 3 hearts, small magic meter, Master Sword, Light Arrow
Majora: 3 hearts, small magic meter, Kokiri Sword, Mirror Shield

Ganondorf can kill you in a single hit with all but his ground-pound attack - however, they are exceptionally easy to dodge/counter, and Ganon is far too slow and cumbersome to get a hit in before you roll between his legs and take out his tail. The hardest part of a 3 heart run against Ganondorf is probably the two Stalfos halfway down the tower.

On the other hand, Majora's Mask can't one shot you, but he uses the other four masks to attack from all angles, and very precise timing is required to knock him out of the air when he swoops at you. Incarnation can be tricky if you don't hit him right off the bat because his energy blasts are so sudden and erratic. Wrath is much more difficultthan both put together, as he very cleverly never lets you anywhere near him, and his attacks get more and more vicious and harder to dodge as he takes damage, especially when he releases the spinning tops.

Majora is far more difficult than Ganon, even if it isn't obvious. You could just use arrows, but where's the fun in that? The fight I just described is as interesting as you can make it. And of course, you single-form him with the other masks for even more challenges - Deku Mask is by far the hardest.