Stone Tower of Babel: Why Termina was Doomed

Originally Posted by MDS13

Besides,I don't think Japanese people would put "GOD" related things in a videogame

why do you think that? They put religious themes in amime all the time. In fact, when they bring it over here, they censor it--thanks to 4Kids and DiC, the bastards. sorry, pardon my French; i just dont approve much of defacing someone's artwork.

Wow. I have to say, Dan is an amazing fellow. For this thread to be alive for 2 years, and still be running today? Major props.

Also, I love your theory. I just got done wading through all 19 pages (took 4 days, roughly 8-10 hours), so I figured to not let it just go to waste. I see all the points you've made, though I haven't quite beaten MM yet (I'm at the Ocean boss at most in any run). It seems to be a very solid theory, and wouldn't be suprised if Nintendo revealed it as true.

Again, major congrats to Hylian Dan, and all who supported his theory. Also, 1st post.

2 years?! awesome!! Go, Dan!

MM is a great one. that Evil Fish of Doom is fun to beat as well.

Originally Posted by TNT_Xplosiv

Wow. I have to say, Dan is an amazing fellow. For this thread to be alive for 2 years, and still be running today? Major props.

Also, I love your theory. I just got done wading through all 19 pages (took 4 days, roughly 8-10 hours), so I figured to not let it just go to waste. I see all the points you've made, though I haven't quite beaten MM yet (I'm at the Ocean boss at most in any run). It seems to be a very solid theory, and wouldn't be suprised if Nintendo revealed it as true.

Again, major congrats to Hylian Dan, and all who supported his theory. Also, 1st post.

Welcome to ZU!

As for the theory, it's very original, but I wouldn't call it solid. All of his evidence is circumstancial. He describes something he sees in Stone Tower, tells us why it's there and what meaning it holds, and then uses that meaning he himself decided on, as evidence for his theory. People tend to jump on the bandwagon of exotic ideas, but when deciding what's actually correct it's best to be a little more cautious. My alternative idea could likewise be wrong. Nintendo puts some hints here and there but because they've been vague, it's difficult to pinpoint their original motives. In fact, being vague is to their advantage because it gives them further leeway for future games.

Originally Posted by MajorasWrath1

Welcome to ZU!

As for the theory, it's very original, but I wouldn't call it solid. All of his evidence is circumstancial. He describes something he sees in Stone Tower, tells us why it's there and what meaning it holds, and then uses that meaning he himself decided on, as evidence for his theory. People tend to jump on the bandwagon of exotic ideas, but when deciding what's actually correct it's best to be a little more cautious. My alternative idea could likewise be wrong. Nintendo puts some hints here and there but because they've been vague, it's difficult to pinpoint their original motives. In fact, being vague is to their advantage because it gives them further leeway for future games.

True, it's not completely solid as it's all based on ideas, but he backs it all up with evidence that just makes you go, "Duh, that makes sense." Your's makes sense too, but it lacks the 2 years of revising and help from others that makes Dan's seem so much more true. It's a good start, but definitely needs more time and work put into it to rival Dan's theory. Honestly, I would have never noticed half the stuff Dan pointed out, but it's definitely worth looking into.

Allow me to defend myself a bit. While posting in this thread I would usually err on the side of overanalyzing stuff and coming up with wild ideas and bits of speculation. That's because I think this thread is more fun if everyone feels safe posting crazy out-there ideas. This thread would have died a lot sooner if every idea got attacked simply for seeming too out-there, and if people didn't feel comfortable enough to jump in and say stuff like, "Hey, those things on Majora's Wrath's body look like ovaries to me." Majora's Mask is a crazy game (remember the guy stuck in the toilet?) so I want people to go ahead and post some of the crazy thoughts and ideas they might have had while playing the game. It's more interesting than not discussing them at all.

That's not to say the purpose of this thread is just to throw out a bunch of dumb, ridiculous theories about MM and have everyone go "Hey, that's cool, you're right, and here's another stupid nonsensical theory that must be true!" If there doesn't seem to be much merit to someone's theory or suggestion, discussion will probably move on to a different topic and the idea will most likely be gently discarded. If there does seem like there could be merit to some bit of speculation, like the ovaries or the stuff about the colors of Majora's horns, a number of people will probably post and support those ideas, and after they've been discussed and analyzed, they may be accepted and even edited into the first post if I don't get lazy. I think this approach is much more productive and enjoyable than the sort of discussion on some other theorizing forums where everyone takes everything way too seriously.

This thread's been alive for a loooong time, and tons of crazy ideas have been posted and discussed. People can then read through this material and form their own judgments about what bits of speculation are compelling and plausible and what are bunk. Naturally, I have my own opinions about this stuff. And of course I'm usually going to try to defend the pieces of this theory that I strongly believe are true.

About that thing with the tongues and crotches. Sometime before I noticed all the Tower of Babel stuff, I was in Ikana, about to walk through the entrance to Stone Tower. While I was walking towards the mouth of the gate gargoyle, I noted that I was walking on its tongue and that its legs were spread wide open and I was between them. I thought that gargoyle seemed borderline obscene. Later, when I made the connection with the Triforces and the pointing hand, I remembered that tongue sticking between that gargoyle's legs. The blocks in Stone Tower with the Triforce share the same design as that gate gargoyle, but since the design is mapped onto a cube you could argue that the tongue is just sticking straight out and isn't meant to be associated with the crotch area. But if you go back and look at the gate gargoyle, the basis for the design of the cubic blocks, it seems more likely that the tongue is supposed to be uncomfortably close to the crotch area. Also, if the creature on the cubic blocks wasn't sticking out its tongue so far, you'd see its crotch exactly where the Triforce is. As it is, you can clearly see the creature's buttocks, which makes it pretty darn likely that Nintendo was going for the obscene angle.

That said, I'm not very happy with the way I wrote the first post. It's messy, confusing, and hastily written, and a number of the ideas I posted there deserve to be thrown out. Some of the descriptions I wrote could be toned down or improved, like the awkward phrasing of that tongue-and-crotch argument or the line where I suggest that the Stone Tower looks like a penis (Maybe it's meant to look that way, but a lot of people stop reading and dismiss the theory when they get to that part. I didn't present that idea very well). I'm reluctant to throw away the original text of that post because I think a number of people might want it to stay there so they can go back and reread and reference it. I'm trying to write a new, better article with a more clear and concise presentation of the Babel theory and a much greater emphasis on the role of faith in the game. I've already written a few pages of it, but homework and Super Smash Bros. Brawl and other stuff gets in the way. I need to sit myself down and finish the darn thing sometime soon.

And maybe, ideally, sometime over the summer I could start my own blog or website where I just write articles analyzing Majora's Mask and a number of other stories, whether they're books, games, movies, TV shows, that don't get enough attention. For instance, I would love to go through each of K.A. Applegate's Animorphs, Everworld, and Remnants books and draw out the deeper themes and important passages in each of them. So many people are eagerly dissecting the Harry Potter books, but there's not really anywhere I can go and discuss the deeper themes of KA's books.

Anyways. Thanks, TNT_Xplosiv.

Originally Posted by ZeldaStrife

why do you think that? They put religious themes in amime all the time. In fact, when they bring it over here, they censor it--thanks to 4Kids and DiC, the bastards. sorry, pardon my French; i just dont approve much of defacing someone's artwork.

Sorry,I worded that wrong.As for which theory I support,I think a lot of Dan's theory is correct(the portal,the hand,etc).I just had a hard time believing Nintendo would put phallus images in a Zelda game.Majoraswrath1's theory is also somewhat correct to me,I don't think the statues are mocking the goddeses,but his theory is also basically insulting Dan's at the end of each paragraph.Dan's theory is bigger,older,and has more evidence so I support Dan's theory.

Originally Posted by MDS13

Majoraswrath1's theory is also somewhat correct to me,I don't think the statues are mocking the goddeses,but his theory is also basically insulting Dan's at the end of each paragraph.Dan's theory is bigger,older,and has more evidence so I support Dan's theory.

I didn't mean to sound that way. I don't think Dan would anyone supporting his theory only because of its age, or only because of the number of people who've found it fascinating and commented on it. I was trying to show that while many people consider Dan's theory to have alot of evidence going for it, I believe there is actually alot of evidence against it, and that most of the evidence is very circumstancial. I believe those are valid points to bring up. We're trying to find the actual answer to things, not the most exciting or novel answer. That's the way I see it, and although I believe the stone tower of babel theory is incorrect, I'm confident that there's a 75% chance my theory is wrong or at least partially wrong as well, because MM's clues are so vague. However, I believe my theory has a grain of truth behind it, backed more by quotes than by personal interpretations of artwork, and I believe that if parts of it are shown to be in error, other parts may prove correct, and as discussion develops something closer to the truth may be built off of it.

Originally Posted by MajorasWrath1

I didn't mean to sound that way. I don't think Dan would anyone supporting his theory only because of its age, or only because of the number of people who've found it fascinating and commented on it. I was trying to show that while many people consider Dan's theory to have alot of evidence going for it, I believe there is actually alot of evidence against it, and that most of the evidence is very circumstancial. I believe those are valid points to bring up. We're trying to find the actual answer to things, not the most exciting or novel answer. That's the way I see it, and although I believe the stone tower of babel theory is incorrect, I'm confident that there's a 75% chance my theory is wrong or at least partially wrong as well, because MM's clues are so vague. However, I believe my theory has a grain of truth behind it, backed more by quotes than by personal interpretations of artwork, and I believe that if parts of it are shown to be in error, other parts may prove correct, and as discussion develops something closer to the truth may be built off of it.

Your theory is definitly more believable.His just has a lot of evidence so I chose his because there is a lot to study.We need to find out what is correct in both theories and by insulting I meant all your evidenc wrecks his (I guess I should have made that more clear).But I'm just glad we can find theories for this mysterious game

Originally Posted by MDS13

But I'm just glad we can find theories for this mysterious game

Me too

Dan has a book of evidence and you have just a normal theory you should make a newthread if you want to dicuss your theory

A thing I want to ask you MajorasWrath (and I'm not saying you're wrong, but I just find this a little unlikely) is how the Stone Tower was built by the Garo's...
I mean, they're from an enemy nation sent to spy on the Ikanians. If the Garo base was the stone tower, they could just peak out of a window to see the Ikanians and what they're doing, and would hardly need spies. Neither would allow the other one to built their base beside them if they were at war either. I can't see the Stone Tower nor Ikana Castle to have been built in less than years (certainly not the Tower), one must've been first, and I doubt any of them would allow the other to finish their work.

Just something I've thought about, though maybe you have too, and have the answer.

Originally Posted by Kamiks

A thing I want to ask you MajorasWrath (and I'm not saying you're wrong, but I just find this a little unlikely) is how the Stone Tower was built by the Garo's...
I mean, they're from an enemy nation sent to spy on the Ikanians. If the Garo base was the stone tower, they could just peak out of a window to see the Ikanians and what they're doing, and would hardly need spies. Neither would allow the other one to built their base beside them if they were at war either. I can't see the Stone Tower nor Ikana Castle to have been built in less than years (certainly not the Tower), one must've been first, and I doubt any of them would allow the other to finish their work.

Just something I've thought about, though maybe you have too, and have the answer.

It doesn't have to have been the Garo, but it probably wasn't the Ikana, because of what the king said, and the different designs (if you want to count that). The Garo could have been working for Stone Tower's original owners, instead of being one and the same. The castle and tower are pretty close together in the game but I imagine in the real storyline of Termina they would be further apart, just as in the real Termina it would probably take Link more than 5 minutes to walk across the entire map.

Originally Posted by Kamiks

A thing I want to ask you MajorasWrath (and I'm not saying you're wrong, but I just find this a little unlikely) is how the Stone Tower was built by the Garo's...
I mean, they're from an enemy nation sent to spy on the Ikanians. If the Garo base was the stone tower, they could just peak out of a window to see the Ikanians and what they're doing, and would hardly need spies. Neither would allow the other one to built their base beside them if they were at war either. I can't see the Stone Tower nor Ikana Castle to have been built in less than years (certainly not the Tower), one must've been first, and I doubt any of them would allow the other to finish their work.

Just something I've thought about, though maybe you have too, and have the answer.

What I think is that maybe the Garo's are the Ikanans.Maybe they are spying because their nation has went to ruin and they are searching for the one responsible.What else would they be spying on?The Garo Master knew a lot about the stone tower and how to invert it.

When I get more evidence,I will expand on this.

Originally Posted by MajorasWrath1

It doesn't have to have been the Garo, but it probably wasn't the Ikana, because of what the king said, and the different designs (if you want to count that). The Garo could have been working for Stone Tower's original owners, instead of being one and the same. The castle and tower are pretty close together in the game but I imagine in the real storyline of Termina they would be further apart, just as in the real Termina it would probably take Link more than 5 minutes to walk across the entire map.

Yeah I guess that could be possible. Any more clues to the original creators of the Stone Tower is the key to future theories imo.

Originally Posted by MDS13

What I think is that maybe the Garo's are the Ikanans.Maybe they are spying because their nation has went to ruin and they are searching for the one responsible.What else would they be spying on?The Garo Master knew a lot about the stone tower and how to invert it.

When I get more evidence,I will expand on this.

This is from a GameFaqs text dump-this is all of the Garos text:

What are you???

R-regrettable...
Although my rival, you were
spectacular.

I shall take my bow by opening my
heart and revealing my wisdom...

Belief or disbelief rests with you.

To die without leaving a corpse...
That is the way of us Garo.

To cross the valley of Ikana, aim
at the river beasts with the
arrowhead that freezes.

The soul of the composer named
Flat rests in Ikana Graveyard.
I have heard his brother, Sharp is
here in Ikana.

That which was acquired in Ikana
Castle shall open the way to
Stone Tower. That is all I know.

Atop the hill here in Ikana, no
human presence is felt, except
that of the parent and child living
in the house with the waterwheel.

Every two minutes on every day,
the girl who lives in the music
box house goes to the dried well
to check on something.
But as long as the spirits are
wandering outside her house, she
dares not leave her home.

To revive the dried-up river on
Ikana hill, you must go to the
spring water cave.

If one tries to enter the spring
water cave without knowing the
song buried in a grave, that poor
visitor shall meet with disaster.

To save the cursed human, his
soul must be healed.

The well atop the hill and the well
at Ikana Castle's inner garden are
one.

As the Gibdos in Ikana's well have
regrets and long to savor items
from this world, they continue to
wander about.

Most of that which the Gibdos
regret can be found inside the
well itself.

The ReDeads in Ikana were once
members of the castle's dancing
troupe...

A hole can be opened in the
ceiling of a particular room in
Ikana Castle.

But it cannot be broken without
an explosive with incredible might.

In entering Ikana Castle, there is
another secret route apart from
the well entrance.

To counter the rage of the King
of Ikana Castle, burn away that
which disrupts the light and shine
the sacred rays on the King.

To think I could be defeated...
Although my rival, you were
spectacular.

I shall take my bow by opening my
heart and revealing my wisdom...

If you shoot that which releases
the sacred golden light into the
blood-stained, red emblem outside
the temple...
it shall rearrange things, in which
the earth is born in the heavens
and the moon is born on the
earth.

Do not forget these words...
Die I shall, leaving no corpse.

That is the law of us Garo.


As it shows,the Garos know a lot of the Ikana castle, including that redeads were a dancing troupe'.....perhaps they worked for the garo's as entertainment.At this point,we don't know at all what Garo's look like,perhaps they cloak themselves to hide from the gods.

Originally Posted by MDS13

As it shows,the Garos know a lot of the Ikana castle, including that redeads were a dancing troupe'.....perhaps they worked for the garo's as entertainment.At this point,we don't know at all what Garo's look like,perhaps they cloak themselves to hide from the gods.

In-game evidence clearly proves that the Garo (Ninjas, anyone?) spied on the Ikana, and were presumed to be mortal enemies. If they were as good spies as they appear to be, then chances are, they know a lot about the Ikana.

And besides, I doubt a tribe of proud, invisible Ninjas that die without leaving a corpse were petty entertainers.

Originally Posted by HelmarocKing

In-game evidence clearly proves that the Garo (Ninjas, anyone?) spied on the Ikana, and were presumed to be mortal enemies. If they were as good spies as they appear to be, then chances are, they know a lot about the Ikana.

And besides, I doubt a tribe of proud, invisible Ninjas that die without leaving a corpse were petty entertainers.

The redeads were the entertainers,and show me some evidence that proves this wrong.

Originally Posted by MDS13

The redeads were the entertainers,and show me some evidence that proves this wrong.

The ReDeads only became "guards" after they died and became ReDeads. Before that, they were merely dancers. The Garo, on the other hand, were spies and enemies in life. Also, Pamela's father tells you that the Garo came from a distant land to spy on and attack Ikana.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

The ReDeads only became "guards" after they died and became ReDeads. Before that, they were merely dancers. The Garo, on the other hand, were spies and enemies in life. Also, Pamela's father tells you that the Garo came from a distant land to spy on and attack Ikana.

The ReDeads in Ikana were once
members of the castle's dancing
troupe...

Dancer entertainer same thing.And pamelas dad only was alive for so long,as oppose to the Garo's with their whole race of warriors.This has happened long before he was even thought of.