Stone Tower of Babel: Why Termina was Doomed

Originally Posted by Jin Shukumei

I wonder why this isn't in the fanfic section or something.

Hmmm maybe because people are speculating.

Originally Posted by Jin Shukumei

and serious graphic glitch on the tear...
what is up with that...

Do you have hard factual evidence that that cross is merely a rendering error and does not have meaning?

look at the picture before you say that?
I've played MM enough to know the Tear is not a friggin black blob.
so yea that's factual evidence you want me to link you to what it really looks like?
or are you deadset on believing it is supposed to look like an obvious emulator error?

not to mention that the dominant religion in japan is shinto.
it's not speculation it is sheer fanfiction.
I think it would do better in fanfiction, since it is making up a story to some simple design element.

Someone earlier mentioned that they thought there were Christian themes in the game, and when I saw the tear, I thought I had better post a picture of it.

The point of theorizing is to throw out a whole bunch of ridiculous ideas, most of which are not plausible, so that you might mention one idea that is close to being right.


Here are the designs on the outer walls of clock town. Each compass direction has a different distinct design.

East: http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/snap0141.jpg
South: http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/snap0143.jpg
West: http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/snap0148.jpg
North: http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/snap0151.jpg

The east one certainly looks like a sun. Could the west one be the moon?
The south might be a rainbow, and the north is... is... ..nothing?

I thought the outer wall of the north side sort of looked like rain, it would make sence with the rainbow there.

Anyways, I've been following this theory for awhile now, but I haven't bothered to post because I wanted to post something to help. I really enjoyed reading this theory and following along with it.

I think somewhere someone pointed out that clocktown may be linked to Ikana, but they have no proof besides markings. What if Clock Town wasn't built to be a city? With it's high walls, it could have much more been suited to be some sort of fortrace. Maybe the War between the Ikana's and the Garo's was much more widespread than we're thinking. Clocktown could have been built by the Ikana to protect something. I'm mostly thinking about the high walls and the route to the Obervatory. I'm sure that route didn't always lead to an old guy with a telescope and a set of rainbow stairs. The Observatory, if I recall correctly, is also rather close to the Canyon.

I guess the biggest hole in this is why the Ikana would build a fortrace outside the Canyon, and what they would need to protect.

Ok, this has alot of holes in it, but I thought I'd go ahead and give it a shot, I don't see how Clocktown couldn't be related to Ikana, with all the symbols and whatnot. The Termulans don't seem very artistic to me, they're more techology based.

Originally Posted by Oraiste

I thought the outer wall of the north side sort of looked like rain, it would make sence with the rainbow there.

Wow. Of course it looks like rain! Why didn't I see it?

What exactly do the symbols mean? Are they acknowledging those things' presence? Or a form of worship? I'm not sure, because they're on the outside. If they wanted to paint a painting of the sun, wouldn't they do it on the inside of the wall, so they could see it?

So:
North: Rain. The mountains are in the north, the goron village is in the north, Snowhead is in the north, the blacksmith is in the north.
East: Sun. The sun rises in the east, the Ikana Canyon is in the east, the Observatory is in the east, the stone tower is in the east, the graveyard is in the east.
South: Rainbow? Or a mountain/hill? Woodfall is in the south, a swamp/forest area is in the south, Deku Palace is in the south, that giant volcano-looking thing is in the south.
West: Moon. The ocean is in the west, the gerudo pirate fortress is in the west, the beavers are in the west, the zora village is in the west, the laboratory is in the west.

Nothing seems very significant.

Originally Posted by Oriaste

I think somewhere someone pointed out that clocktown may be linked to Ikana, but they have no proof besides markings. What if Clock Town wasn't built to be a city? With it's high walls, it could have much more been suited to be some sort of fortrace. Maybe the War between the Ikana's and the Garo's was much more widespread than we're thinking. Clocktown could have been built by the Ikana to protect something. I'm mostly thinking about the high walls and the route to the Obervatory. I'm sure that route didn't always lead to an old guy with a telescope and a set of rainbow stairs. The Observatory, if I recall correctly, is also rather close to the Canyon.

I guess the biggest hole in this is why the Ikana would build a fortrace outside the Canyon, and what they would need to protect.

Ok, this has alot of holes in it, but I thought I'd go ahead and give it a shot, I don't see how Clocktown couldn't be related to Ikana, with all the symbols and whatnot. The Termulans don't seem very artistic to me, they're more techology based.

A fortress, that's a good idea. In that case, the symbols might be warnings to invaders. I was really excited because I thought, "Oh, there are undead people in Ikana, and the sun on the east wall might be trying to ward them off." However, if the Ikanans built clock town, they weren't dead yet. The paintings might have been added later, though.

And what about the others? The rain might make gorons afraid, for their aversion to water.

Does a rainbow scare dekus or swamp creatuers? Or is it a mountain? A volcano might scare them, but it doesn't really look that much like a volcano.

This theory falls apart for the west. A moon is not frightening (unless it has red eyes, a pointy nose, and scary teeth).


As for what the possible fortress could have been guarding, I see two possibilities.
1) There was something at that particular location that was being guarded. Something under the clock tower? The passage to the observatory (whatever it used to be)?
Here's an interesting doorway decoration where the withered stump is:
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/snap0022.jpg

2) That location was guarded because it was on the way to an important location. Like an outpost. So there might have been something at the ocean (or shipments from the sea) that needed to be transported securely?

Still working on that one. We need to figure out where link was before he fell down that large pit into the passageway to the clock tower.

Originally Posted by Gazebo

Here's an interesting doorway decoration where the withered stump is:
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/snap0022.jpg

I think thats just the shodow in the room.

Fist of all. the entire cty is decorated that way, not just the outside. Also, I can hardly see what you guys say they resemble. But if I should try to find the motiv behind them it would sound like this:
Moon in the west. Tidal!
Rainbow in the south. Tropical heat creates water steams that in sunlight can appear as rainbows.
Rain in the north. are you sure it isn´t snow?
Sun in the east. The sun normally rises in east.

BTW, I think that western painting looks more like a big octo.

Second. The crack in the moons tear. It´s there in every game version, but the light was ****ed up in your screenshot. It fell hundreds of metres. I´m surprised it in the condition it is, and not worse.

Thanks for posting all those screens, Gazebo. I think I'll add some more screens from this thread to the first post soon.

Originally Posted by Jim Shukumei

I think it would do better in fanfiction, since it is making up a story to some simple design element.

I have no interest in fanfiction. I know a lot of the speculation in here is farfetched, but the imagery in the Stone Tower is enough to convince me that there is more to this story than what's on the surface. It's not clear whether or not there's merit to some of our wild speculation, but we're not here to make up fanfiction; we're trying to understand the strange culture and history of Termina, incase there's more to be learned.

Originally Posted by Gazebo

Lastly, just to stir up a little interest, I have no idea whether this picture is how it originally appeared, or if my emulator is being weird. Open with caution.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/snap0179.jpg

I think that's just a graphical issue. I'll check it out the next time I play.

However, there is a cross-like design on one of the walls in the Twinmold Moon dungeon. My guess is that it's a variation of the common Termina compass emblem. Anything that looks like a cross in the game is probably related to that compass emblem, rather than Christianity. The compass emblem possibly could have been designed with the cross in mind, but that might be stretching it.

If you and Surio feel like taking more screens, there are a lot of interesting designs in the moon dungeons.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/snap0022.jpg
I think that doorway design appears in a few other locations. The Stone Tower mirrors come to mind first. Speaking of which, in the Stone Tower room with the three mirrors, there are some blocks that you punch as a Goron that show another face sticking its tongue out.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/snap0151.jpg
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/snap0166.jpg
I think that North design resembles the Clock Tower entrance. The desing on the orange object above it looks like a variation of the compass emblem.

The south might be a rainbow

A rainbow does appear over Termina when it is saved. The Moon, the Sun, the rain, the rainbow... all these things are asssociated with the sky. The Stone Tower was likely built to reach the heavens. Termina is almost destroyed by a heavenly body, and when Termina is saved the rainbow appears in the sky as a sign of its redemption. Is a conflict between the earth and the heavens a cultural or historical theme in Termina?

Some related thoughts: The Terminian myth about the Giants and the Imp says that the Imp departed for the heavens. The doorways in the Stone Tower Temple show two suns, one on earth and one in the sky. There are also the three worlds you travel to from Termina: the field with the tree in the sky, the hellish desert below Termina, and the realms of the Giants with the four pillars and the stump in the middle. The Giant's realm seems to be a spiritual representation of Termina.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/snap0014.jpg
Any thoughts about this creepy image? It vaguely resembles the Stone Tower entrance, or maybe not. It's the first door you open on your way to Termina, and it seems very ominous.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/snap0052.jpg
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/snap0058.jpg
These are two variations of the same design. This design also appears on the brooches of Sharp, Igos du Ikana and his servants, and on the shirt of the ghostly stranger in Ikana. I haven't checked Skull Keeta and Flat. This design also appears on the doors and walls of Ikana Castle. My guess is that it's an allusion to the role masks play in the culture and history of Termina.

Speaking of masks, Odolwa's mask appears in the illustration you see while being told the story of the Carnival of Time. Any thoughts about what that might mean?

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/snap0139.jpg
The design is very similar to the design of the Triforce-licking blocks, which isn't very surprising considering the nearby pillars also have that design.

Originally Posted by Gazebo

As for what the possible fortress could have been guarding, I see two possibilities.
1) There was something at that particular location that was being guarded. Something under the clock tower? The passage to the observatory (whatever it used to be)?
Here's an interesting doorway decoration where the withered stump is:
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/snap0022.jpg

2) That location was guarded because it was on the way to an important location. Like an outpost. So there might have been something at the ocean (or shipments from the sea) that needed to be transported securely?

Still working on that one. We need to figure out where link was before he fell down that large pit into the passageway to the clock tower.

I think both of your suggestions are very likely. Your first one could apply if maybe it wasn't always a portal to Hyrule/Other Worlds. Perhaps the Ikanas had more of a grasp on Termula than we're giving them credit for.

Didn't Link come from The Lost Woods? That's what I've always thought. But the portal in the bottom of the Clock tower may not just lead to Hyrule, I think it's probably best to assume that it can take you to other worlds aswell.

Originally Posted by PurachinaIto

Fist of all. the entire cty is decorated that way, not just the outside. Also, I can hardly see what you guys say they resemble. But if I should try to find the motiv behind them it would sound like this:
Moon in the west. Tidal!
Rainbow in the south. Tropical heat creates water steams that in sunlight can appear as rainbows.
Rain in the north. are you sure it isn´t snow?
Sun in the east. The sun normally rises in east.

Maybe we're looking at the markings wrong, they aren't warnings, they just might simply represent the cardinal directions. The Sun could have something to do with the dry conditions of the Canyon, I agree with the rest of them.

Snow would make more sence, I automaticly saw rain, probably because of the rainbow. I think it could be any form of precipitation.

Originally Posted by PurachinaIto

Fist of all. the entire cty is decorated that way, not just the outside.

It's interesting you should say that. Three of the four symbols from outside appear in South Clock Town. They are the same.

South symbol:
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o.../csnap0001.jpg
West symbol:
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...snap000114.jpg
East symbol:
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o.../snap00013.jpg

I still haven't found the north symbol distinctly yet. Parts of it look like they are in west clock town, but it is unclear.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...snap000123.jpg

However, I found something interesting on the clock tower itself. It looks like the double-circle pattern of the "rainbow" south outer wall symbol.
West-facing: http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/snap0115.jpg
North-facing: http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...snap000187.jpg
East-facing: http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...nap0001101.jpg
South-facing: http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/snap0120.jpg

If you look at the north-facing one, you can see a double-circle above, as well. The "rainbow" pattern might actually be simply the top half of the clock tower "circle" pattern.

Here is a comparison of the two:
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...comparison.jpg

I am confident that the south outer wall pattern and the clock tower circle pattern is the same. The real question though: Is this even an important observation?

Originally Posted by PurachinaIto

Also, I can hardly see what you guys say they resemble. But if I should try to find the motiv behind them it would sound like this:
Moon in the west. Tidal!
Rainbow in the south. Tropical heat creates water steams that in sunlight can appear as rainbows.
Rain in the north. are you sure it isn´t snow?
Sun in the east. The sun normally rises in east.

BTW, I think that western painting looks more like a big octo.

I have to say, that's a lot more reasonable than what I was thinking.
But if the rainbow is actually half of the circle pattern of the clock tower, how does the south relate to the clock tower?
Or, another possibility: The symbol on the clock tower is a complete circular rainbow.
I don't know. I'll keep looking.

Originally Posted by PurachinaIto

Second. The crack in the moons tear. It´s there in every game version, but the light was ****ed up in your screenshot. It fell hundreds of metres. I´m surprised it in the condition it is, and not worse.

I agree with you. It's probably not a cross.

Going along with my fortress idea, I thought maybe they wanted to build a fortress where clocktown is now because of some sort of trade route. It makes sence once you look at the Oceanography of Termula. The "river" that runs underneath Clocktown runs West to East, in both directions. And most everyone knows that The Canyon has a water route to the Swamp. What I'm trying to get at is that they're all linked together, making it a good trade route. I'm not really sure if there was other races to trade with, but if the Pirates were around, I'm sure they'd be able to trade with them, and there's the Buisness Deku in the Swamp to trade with.
I'll admit it's farfetched, because it is. But it works when you look at the currents and the overall map. I'm not sure Ikana's are the type of Race to go trading with everyone, but I can't think of anything else that's in Clocktown that they would build a whole fortrace for.

My handmade map (which didn't go over very well.)
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/7...urrentscp5.png
And the official termula map I drew on
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/5421/map2fd8.png

And now for screenshots (My rom sometimes doesn't show the water and ground textures, so forgive me.)

This is the underground "route" underneath the Clocktower, I'm sure you've all seen it before, but I'm making you look again xD
This is the side that faces West (towards the Canyon)
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2...majoraszi9.jpg
And this is the side that faces East (towards the Sea)
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/3...nap0014th7.jpg

Notice the gates that are up? If the Ikana's are the ones that used this route somehow, they probably sealed it off when they left, to make sure no one else could use it.

This next one is supposted to be where the Ikana river (the one in the Canyon) starts.
http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/1...majorassg1.jpg

This is the exit to Ikana Canyon, right in there is the entrance to the Swamp using the waterways.
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/5...majorasiq5.jpg

And finally, the waterfall that flows from Ikana into the Swamp. Well, that's what it's supposted to be, anyway.
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/7...majorasuk1.jpg

Sorry if this is all too off topic or too farfetched.

Water never flows uphill. It is always trying to flow downhill until it reaches a lake or an ocean. So the source of the river can't be the ocean. However, it could originate from a spring just barely west of clock town and be impeded by an aquitard and flow east. However, it's quite a longshot that a river can begin at such a low altitude but still make it all the way through the clock tower, northward of Ikana canyon, fall down a waterfall, flow through Ikana canyon, and another waterfall into the swamp, which itself is a bit above sea level.

My theory is that the Ikana river originates in the mountains, and that the one under the clock tower is different stream. It's difficult to tell where the stream originates, where it goes, and how it finally reaches the ocean. I'll keep looking.

Ah, of course. That sort of makes it impossible.
Expectually the way I was looking at it, as some sort of underground waterway. That would never reach Ikana correctly, maybe it would reach the Great Bay, but that wouldn't even matter. The current in the small river below clocktower has a very fast curent and I don't think anyone would want to paddle against the curent. I always wondered where that river underneath clocktown goes to though. Maybe it's just there for props, or perhaps symbolisation. Or maybe it's a newer add-on and is only used for the energy of the clocktower.

I think I'm going to look around Ikana Castle and Clocktown, and see if I can link them up that way. Maybe they share some simular markings?

Oraiste, the symbolic of crossing a river.

Originally posted by Bettelheim:
In the fairytale of Hanzel and Gretel (trans.). After that they´ve defeated the witch they must cross a river that symbolises how they´ve grown to meet the challenge. They are now mature and independent from their parents.

Just a thought though. I´ve had Bettelheim on my mind the past few days.....(That guy really ruined little red riding hood for me)

Gazebo about this screenshot:
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...snap000187.jpg

I like it. I´ts eerie. And it can be misunderstood in alot of ways. But back to the subject. My first thought when I saw it was. "Moon colliding with world" All that´s missing is the silhuette of the clocktower to make it complete. Even better is that it is painted on the clocktower, the summon point for the moon.

I think my last post was a bit harsh, but that was because I was angry at something else. Even tough I can see how your rainbow looks like a rainbow, I still thinks it looks a bit like a big Octo ^^

Here are pictures of the ground west of Clock Town. I can think of four possibilities:

1) The stream originates east of the cliff, and runs downhill through Clock Town, because the cliff-face is too solid hard for water to flow through. (Possible small problem: there isn't much room for water to build up underground in order to make the stream flow so quickly.)
2) The stream runs lower underground, and goes right under the cliff, and through Clock Town. (I don't think this is plausible, because the stream would be more likely to flow west toward the ocean; nothing is holding it back.)
3) The stream comes from the north or south, flows west around Clock Town, then back east through it, and finally makes its way to the ocean. (I find this highly unlikely. Clock Town looks like it's on pretty flat ground. Water would have no reason to go around it, then back through it.)
4) The stream is magical, and it was created to power the Clock Tower.

North trench: http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/snap0012.jpg

South trench: http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...snap0017-1.jpg


On another note, I can see two possibilities for this next one, in South Clock Town.
1) This is a reversed-Triforce, like the one at the beginning with the skull kid.
2) It's a convenient way to tile a hexagon.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...snap000131.jpg

WOW!!!
This is brilliant. From all the years i've been playing Majora's Mask i never thought that it could relate to such history.
This is the first thread i read when i entered the forum and i'm amazed. Cant wait to go through some of the others now

To avoid confusion, I will use "vortex" for the swirling thing above the Stone Tower, and "portal" for the thing you stand on to get back to the boss room.

Originally Posted by Hylian Dan

A mysterious (vortex)* above the Stone Tower Temple- Is it a glitch, or is there meaning to it?

*(changed from portal)

Here is a picture of the boss portal beam in the main room of the Woodfall temple.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/snap0023.jpg

It looks very similar to the vortex.

However, when I looked above the portal, I saw no vortex, even when I levitated to the ceiling. The ceiling prevented me from seeing all the way above the portal, so maybe there's a vortex up there. The same thing happened in the Great Bay Temple: http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/snap0034.jpg

However, I was able, possibly due to a glitch, to levitate above the entrance room to the Snowhead Temple. There was no vortex.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/snap0041.jpg

So, if the vortex above the Stone Temple was for the programmers to use to make the boss portal beam, why is there no vortex to be seen in Snowhead, or even Woodfall or Great Bay?

Still, the vortex looks awfully similar to the boss portal beam, so I believe they must be connected. This is my horrible attempt at stretching the image of the vortex in paint and comparing it to the boss portal beam.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...comparison.jpg

4 possible hypotheses:

Hypothesis 1: The vortex is a tool for the programmers to make the boss portal beam. However, in the case of the Stone Tower, they left it visible as part of the storyline.

Hypothesis 2: The vortex is a tool for the programmers to make the boss portal beam. They forgot to "hide" the one in the Stone Temple.

Hypothesis 3: The similarity between the vortex and the boss portal beam is a coincidence, and the two are not related. The vortex is part of the Stone Tower storyline.

Hypothesis 4: The similarity between the vortex and the boss portal beam is a coincidence, and the two are not related. The vortex is not part of the Stone Tower storyline, leaving glitch as the only other possibility?

For me, personally, 3 and 4 are out, considering the comparison photo.

What do you think?

Another possiblity may be that the river flowing beneath the Clock Tower is part of an underground stream built by the Terminians. The water would be pumped from the ocean or nearby source of water, and run underneath the Clock Tower, powering the mill, which in turn powers the Clock Tower. One problem with the theory is where the river would have to end, as there would be no point to continue to pump the water. Possibly, the river could redirect to the Laundry Pool, running underneath South Clock Town, parallel to the Clock Tower.

Map of Termina with both rivers outlined

Map of Clock Town with possible path of river

North end of Laundry Pool, showing the tunnel.
*Note the fact that the tunnel turns east, and that the water is flowing out of it, not into it

South end of Laundry pool
*Note that the tunnel turns west, probably back to the ocean.

Though this may seem a little far-fetched, remember that the Terminians are far more technologically advanced than the Hylians, and are probably capable of engineering this (take the Great Bay Temple for example.)

As for the above post, I would say hypothesis 2.

Gazebo: Eather One or Two. It's highly likely that the portal design to the boss rooms was different in early development, if they left the one in stone tower for speculation I guess is up to the person playing it. I would like to say it is left there to make you think.

Crustacean: That's alot more plauseable than my river theory, that's for sure, it could work, the only problem I see is with current. But if the river kept on going downhill into the water, it's possible. But even then, once you hit Great Bay you have a much harder current pushing the other way.

Plus, what's in Great Bay that the Ikana's would want to trade with? I guess it's possible for the Pirates to be there at that time.


Ok, I have two different ideas. My first one is that instead of using Clocktown as a trade route, they used it to keep the Women and the Children safe and out of the war, or maybe just the children (Ikanan history doesn't really tell us what role women played in society, so I wasn't sure if they'd be taking cover with the children or not.) I don't really have much to back this up with, but the fact that clocktown and Ikana castle both have many markings. I'm suggesting that perhaps the markings in Clocktown is some sort of map or indecations made by young ikanan children that were worried for their fathers. This would expectually make sence with the outside markings that we've talked about before, the Rainbow/Octorok, The Snow, The Sun, and the Moon, and even alot of the markings inside clocktown. It was just a way for the children to remember their fathers at war.

Also, this may be out there, consider it food for thought, but I wonder if the Garo's are/were the counterparts of the Sheikah?
Both ninja's, and Since Termula and Hyrule are counterparts of each other, than it would make sence that the Ikana's and Garo's would be waged in a war, when in Hyrule, the Sheikah and the Hyrulian were close alies.

Also, I probably won't be around much, school just started up again for me, so expect to see less of me.

After exploring Clock Town and Ikana Canyon, and comparing the architecture and markings, I have made several theories:

Theory 1: The people of Clock Town are descendants of Ikanians who settled in Termina Field sometime before the war with the Garos. Over the centuries theire culture developed into what it is now, while the original Ikanians became extinct.

Theory 2: The people of Clock Town are completely different than those of Ikana. They are two civilizations that had little or no contact with eachother. The architecture and markings of the Ikanians are very different from those of Clock Town.

Theory 3: The Ikanians and people of Clock Town are different civilizations, but were close trade partners, and exchanged different ideas.

On my previous theory about the river, my idea was that the people of Clock Town constructed the underground river while the Clock Tower was being built, in order to power the mill underneath the Clock Tower, which powers the clock. Due to the fact that it is underground, I doubt they would have made it as a trade route.