Stone Tower of Babel: Why Termina was Doomed

Originally Posted by Hylian Guardian

I think all of these theories are very interesting. The towers, the Giant's Mask, even the Majora's Mask spike color theory. I just wish I had something to contribute.

What do you mean, even the spike colour theory? Just kidding, I know it may sound a bit weird
Surely if you keep your eyes open when you play you will notice something. (preferably the origin of the mask LOL)
No seriosly, most in this thread (almost everything) was found by Hylian Dan himself. All I do for example is try to bend it in every possible direction.
Why don´t you try that to? It´s fun to discuss this.

Hylian Dan, I've said this before but, your my hero

O man that was really good

wow i love to read connections between the Zelda universe (a ha hahah ha ok) and the real world. that just made soo much sense.

Would Hyrule be considered a holy land then? Like where life originatted from?

Originally Posted by PurachinaIto

this is a long reply, I know that. But just one more thing to everyone that have read this far. Consider everything I´ve written this far. Then consider the fact that the mask salesman has the Mario mask! OMG, now we know what will happen in the future with Mario. And we can even fit Mario in the timeline! Poor thing. Wait! does that mean that the salesman can tranform into Mario? *Overwhelming* How many games have we played as the salesman instead of Mario? LOL

So you wrote more than that, but it WAS a long reply, and I'm looking out for the souls with dial up.

In response to your mention of the Happy Mask Salesman, he is an entirely new entity to consider, as his knowledge of both worlds (and perhaps many others)--Hyrule and Termina--are extensive. It may also be worthy to note that he may be aware of the imminent death of Termina; and, when the moon is allowed to fall, speaks as if omnipotently, "You've met with a terrible fate, haven't you?"--suggesting that he is, in fact, some omnipotent (or all-knowing) being of the Zelda worlds. So however this ties into this amazingly detailed (and understandable) theory, could be examined.

I find myself honestly mentioning that I read only the first and last pages of this thread; so, if the Happy Mask Salesman information I've posted has already been said in the exact (or nearly) same way, I'm gravely sorry--but, really, it's sixteen pages.

Love.

Originally Posted by Saving Session

So you wrote more than that, but it WAS a long reply, and I'm looking out for the souls with dial up.

In response to your mention of the Happy Mask Salesman, he is an entirely new entity to consider, as his knowledge of both worlds (and perhaps many others)--Hyrule and Termina--are extensive. It may also be worthy to note that he may be aware of the imminent death of Termina; and, when the moon is allowed to fall, speaks as if omnipotently, "You've met with a terrible fate, haven't you?"--suggesting that he is, in fact, some omnipotent (or all-knowing) being of the Zelda worlds. So however this ties into this amazingly detailed (and understandable) theory, could be examined.

I find myself honestly mentioning that I read only the first and last pages of this thread; so, if the Happy Mask Salesman information I've posted has already been said in the exact (or nearly) same way, I'm gravely sorry--but, really, it's sixteen pages.

Love.

Nope, it haven´t been posted before. But I find it very interesting. I´ve never thought of the salesman as a fortunetelling, omniptent, dimensionjumping...thing. I just thought he was a creep because he steals peoples souls and turns them into masks. Now he´s creepier
Does the other masks that he have on his backpack resemble other characters? And surely he has more masks in the backpack.....
That´s why the characters never age!

Another thing about the Salesman, the "bossremain-running kids" in the moonfield says this:

Originally posted by one of the bossremains:
Masks...
You have a lot..
Will you to....be a masksalesman?

Which suggests that the bossremains know about the Salesman. Also the bossremain-kids look alot like the Salesman probaly would look like when he was young. Perhaps he is a bossremain-kid that took of his mask and grew up? Just a theory....

Originally Posted by PurachinaIto

\...
Does the other masks that he have on his backpack resemble other characters? And surely he has more masks in the backpack.....
That´s why the characters never age!
Another thing about the Salesman, the "bossremain-running kids" in the moonfield says this:
Originally posted by one of the bossremains:
Masks...
You have a lot..
Will you to....be a masksalesman?
Which suggests that the bossremains know about the Salesman. Also the bossremain-kids look alot like the Salesman probaly would look like when he was young. Perhaps he is a bossremain-kid that took of his mask and grew up? Just a theory....

Oooh--interesting. The salesman as a carrier of masks that represent stages (as well as characteristics and characters) of life? Nice.
And as far as the quote by the bossremain kid, could he (or whatever the bossremain kid is) be referring to the idea that when strong personalities (or strong people, in general; a couple real-life examples could be Adolf Hitler or Martin Luther King Jr., as both had strong charisma, or "spirits.")--anyway, when strong "spirits" die, they become Mask Salesmen, which, according to your input, could be sellers of the stages of life (making them, of course, omnipotent)?

I LIKE it.

Originally Posted by Saving Session

In response to your mention of the Happy Mask Salesman, he is an entirely new entity to consider, as his knowledge of both worlds (and perhaps many others)--Hyrule and Termina--are extensive. It may also be worthy to note that he may be aware of the imminent death of Termina; and, when the moon is allowed to fall, speaks as if omnipotently, "You've met with a terrible fate, haven't you?"--suggesting that he is, in fact, some omnipotent (or all-knowing) being of the Zelda worlds. So however this ties into this amazingly detailed (and understandable) theory, could be examined.

I think that when he said you've met a terible fate, he was refering to you being turned into a deku scrub.

Originally Posted by Arin/Knight

I think that when he said you've met a terible fate, he was refering to you being turned into a deku scrub.

In an effort to clear my name and make me look like I'm not some crazy person placing quotes where I want them in order to fit a theory (which I really don't have, just a jumble of ideas), I looked up text dumps from Majora's Mask. Now, since text dumps are in random order (and thus, close to impossible to specify), I couldn't tell when he said it. But he DID say it twice. Which means that you are for sure right. But I still have the chance of being proven a non-crazy.
(Which means I now must go play Majora's Mask and let time run out on purpose.)

Excuse me.

[Zoom zoom!]

P.S. On a side note, I'd like to add that the quote that always confused me resurfaced during my search: After your first meeting with the Happy Mask Salesman, Tatl "thinks aloud": "He was the..."
What. What was he, you silly fairy?

Now. I'd love to return to the original discussion: Stone Tower of Babel.

So... there's a penis in Majora's Mask?

I believe there's one question still to be asked...

How long did it take you to come up with this theory? Seriously, is this what you do in your spare time? Lol! Not to sound insulting, just wondering because I barely even have time to play the games.

I love your theory by the way, I'm going to have to get a ROM of Majora's Mask now to check this all out. I always knew the game was creepy, from the first day I played it at a friends house. Incredibly disturbing...

Originally Posted by Water_Demon

So... there's a penis in Majora's Mask?

Technically, yes. Except Hylian Dan put it more..........polite. Yes I'm a guy.

Originally Posted by _T_

How long did it take you to come up with this theory? Seriously, is this what you do in your spare time? Lol! Not to sound insulting, just wondering because I barely even have time to play the games.

I was replaying MM over the summer, and when I was about to enter the Stone Tower Temple I realized that the unsettling architecture was really extremely blasphemous. My mind then jumped to the Tower of Babel story, so I did a google search the next day to see if anyone else had made that connection. I found the ign thread I linked to in the first post, and the discussion there gave me the idea that Majora's Mask had come from Twinmold's lair. I posted those thoughts here and on a few other boards, and lots of new evidence and theories kept coming up.

Originally Posted by Water_Demon

So... there's a penis in Majora's Mask?

Four of them, actually. And it's possible to jump on them, but that's... really weird. There are buttocks, (on the statues) breasts and ovaries (on Majora's Wrath's body) in the game as well.

Originally Posted by Arin/Knight

I think that when he said you've met a terible fate, he was refering to you being turned into a deku scrub.

The first time, yes, but if the moon falls you are brought back to your meeting with the Salesman and he repeats the line in a very ominous way.

Originally Posted by Saving Session

In response to your mention of the Happy Mask Salesman, he is an entirely new entity to consider, as his knowledge of both worlds (and perhaps many others)--Hyrule and Termina--are extensive. It may also be worthy to note that he may be aware of the imminent death of Termina; and, when the moon is allowed to fall, speaks as if omnipotently, "You've met with a terrible fate, haven't you?"--suggesting that he is, in fact, some omnipotent (or all-knowing) being of the Zelda worlds. So however this ties into this amazingly detailed (and understandable) theory, could be examined.

I think he does know more than what he tells you. He says he has to leave in three days for some sort of business, but what could be more important to him than reclaiming Majora's Mask? I think he was saying that to put pressure on Link to get the task done in time, while remaining optimistic and encouraging on the surface. He also seemed to know of Link's dilemma regarding Navi, because of the advice he gives Link at the end of the game.

His intentions were probably good- he wanted to save Termina from destruction- but his approach to the matter was wrong. Termina had brought Majora upon itself and needed to face the consequences, but the Salesman wanted to simply take the mask away. He brought it to Hyrule, where it absolutely didn't belong, so I think it was in part fate that led Skull Kid to bring it back to Termina. I think the Salesman was a sort of divine entity; not a deity, but a member of an ancient race that was probably closer to the gods. When he sensed that Majora's Mask he escaped its prison, he began a long search to find it.

Masks...
You have a lot...
Will you too... be a mask salesman?

I think that's a metaphor, but I'm not sure exactly what it means.

I find myself honestly mentioning that I read only the first and last pages of this thread; so, if the Happy Mask Salesman information I've posted has already been said in the exact (or nearly) same way, I'm gravely sorry--but, really, it's sixteen pages.

If I have time, I'll try to edit the first post so that some of the major theories and pieces of evidence won't be overlooked. The giant statue of Majora's Mask in the Stone Tower Temple is too cool too miss.

I have spent the last few hours reading through every page of this thread.
Your theory fascinates me, and I cannot imagine how anyone could still be sceptical after all the evidence you have given.
Thanks for expanding the excellence of Majora's Mask.

This may not be relevant, but every boss mask has two spikes, (with the possible exception of Odalwa, I can't seem to find two distinct spikes on his mask like the other three), this could be linked to the spikes on Majora' Mask itself.
This then leads to the thought that the four Boss masks are split parts of Majora's essence, which were intended to corrupt the giants.
If you now consider that, going by your theory, the Goddesses unleashed Majora's Mask upon Termina to spite the builders of the Stone Tower, I think it's very interesting that Majora's mask eventually ended up imprisoning the four giants, the giants which the men who built the Stone Tower believed were the true Gods.

Do you think the Godesses had control over Majora's mask?
Perhaps the Fierce Deity mask was sent by the Godesses to aid Link in the fight against Majora's Mask. Perhaps the Godesses had become regretful of the fate they had created for Termina, and when they observed Link helping and healing the people of Termina, they decided to help him.
This would explain why the player has to find every mask in order to obtain the Fierce Deity Mask. Perhaps, they saw that if there was one such as Link that was so determined to save Termina, then thought that he deserved a chance (perhaps they thought that Link without the triforce of courage would be powerless against Majora's Mask in the final showdown) and so sent the mask.
This would also explain why the Majora Kid tells the player that Link will be the ''bad guy'', perhaps Majora was powerless at the introduction of the Fierce Deity Mask.
Maybe I'm completely wrong, but, what do you think?

Originally Posted by Laughing_corpse

I have spent the last few hours reading through every page of this thread.
Your theory fascinates me, and I cannot imagine how anyone could still be sceptical after all the evidence you have given.
Thanks for expanding the excellence of Majora's Mask.

This may not be relevant, but every boss mask has two spikes, (with the possible exception of Odalwa, I can't seem to find two distinct spikes on his mask like the other three), this could be linked to the spikes on Majora' Mask itself.
This then leads to the thought that the four Boss masks are split parts of Majora's essence, which were intended to corrupt the giants.
If you now consider that, going by your theory, the Goddesses unleashed Majora's Mask upon Termina to spite the builders of the Stone Tower, I think it's very interesting that Majora's mask eventually ended up imprisoning the four giants, the giants which the men who built the Stone Tower believed were the true Gods.

Do you think the Godesses had control over Majora's mask?
Perhaps the Fierce Deity mask was sent by the Godesses to aid Link in the fight against Majora's Mask. Perhaps the Godesses had become regretful of the fate they had created for Termina, and when they observed Link helping and healing the people of Termina, they decided to help him.
This would explain why the player has to find every mask in order to obtain the Fierce Deity Mask. Perhaps, they saw that if there was one such as Link that was so determined to save Termina, then thought that he deserved a chance (perhaps they thought that Link without the triforce of courage would be powerless against Majora's Mask in the final showdown) and so sent the mask.
This would also explain why the Majora Kid tells the player that Link will be the ''bad guy'', perhaps Majora was powerless at the introduction of the Fierce Deity Mask.
Maybe I'm completely wrong, but, what do you think?

That is the longest first post ever O_o.
Alright well, that's all fine, a little fan-ficish, but the Fierce Deity's mask is given to you by the child wearing Majora'a mask, so it was not given to link by the goddesses.

EDIT: Oh and welcome to ZU!

Thanks for the welcome...first I've ever gotten.
*Shakes hand*

Now, about the Majora kid giving you the mask.
My thinking is the that perhaps the Godesses intervened in some way in order to give Link a chance. The moon is representing Terminian heaven accordin to Dan's theory correct? Perhaps the Godesses had some influence over Majora's Mask or the moon, and if so, gave decided to give Link a chance by throwing the Fierce Deity Mask. I dunno, I don't really have much evidence to back this up, just throwing it out there.

Sorry for double posting, but I've noticed something about the face on the mirror shield which could be relevant.
Compare the Mirror shield with the entrance to Stone Tower and the entrance to Stone Tower temple.

Here's the mirror shield:


Here's the entrance to Stone Tower


Here's the entrance to Stone Tower Temple:


This may be just me overanalyzing the designs, and it may be that the shield relates purely to the mask which the Happy mask salesman carries, but I can't help but notice some similarities between the design of the mirror shield and the the entrance to Stone Tower and it's temple.

Both the statues and the shield have very similar noses, they're teeth are similar, except that the shield has a clear bottom set and the statues have a clear top set.
The ridges around the mouth on the Tower entrance are similar to the ridges found in the same position on the shield.
The gold 'fingers' on the border of the shield bear a resemblance to the 'fingers' found on the blocks in the second picture, and the Tower entrance.
The eyebrows are prominent on the shield, and can be seen both on the Tower entrance and (not seen in this screenshot due to angle) the temple entrance.

All this could be dismissed as clutching at straws on my part, but I thought it was worth pointing it out.

Originally Posted by Laughing_corpse

Sorry for double posting, but I've noticed something about the face on the mirror shield which could be relevant.
Compare the Mirror shield with the entrance to Stone Tower and the entrance to Stone Tower temple.

Here's the mirror shield:


Here's the entrance to Stone Tower


Here's the entrance to Stone Tower Temple:


This may be just me overanalyzing the designs, and it may be that the shield relates purely to the mask which the Happy mask salesman carries, but I can't help but notice some similarities between the design of the mirror shield and the the entrance to Stone Tower and it's temple.

Both the statues and the shield have very similar noses, they're teeth are similar, except that the shield has a clear bottom set and the statues have a clear top set.
The ridges around the mouth on the Tower entrance are similar to the ridges found in the same position on the shield.
The gold 'fingers' on the border of the shield bear a resemblance to the 'fingers' found on the blocks in the second picture, and the Tower entrance.
The eyebrows are prominent on the shield, and can be seen both on the Tower entrance and (not seen in this screenshot due to angle) the temple entrance.

All this could be dismissed as clutching at straws on my part, but I thought it was worth pointing it out.

Oh, I see your point about the moon thing. Yes, they are very much alike aren't they? Maybe whoever built the stone tower temple really liked freaky grimacing faces

Originally Posted by Laughing_corpse

Sorry for double posting, but I've noticed something about the face on the mirror shield which could be relevant.
Compare the Mirror shield with the entrance to Stone Tower and the entrance to Stone Tower temple.

Here's the mirror shield:


Here's the entrance to Stone Tower


Here's the entrance to Stone Tower Temple:


This may be just me overanalyzing the designs, and it may be that the shield relates purely to the mask which the Happy mask salesman carries, but I can't help but notice some similarities between the design of the mirror shield and the the entrance to Stone Tower and it's temple.

Both the statues and the shield have very similar noses, they're teeth are similar, except that the shield has a clear bottom set and the statues have a clear top set.
The ridges around the mouth on the Tower entrance are similar to the ridges found in the same position on the shield.
The gold 'fingers' on the border of the shield bear a resemblance to the 'fingers' found on the blocks in the second picture, and the Tower entrance.
The eyebrows are prominent on the shield, and can be seen both on the Tower entrance and (not seen in this screenshot due to angle) the temple entrance.

All this could be dismissed as clutching at straws on my part, but I thought it was worth pointing it out.

First off all, welcome to ZU! Everybody cheer and applause! congratulations for such a brilliant choice! You are so welcome it hurts!
Second. Even though I see the similaries of these pictures, there is one mayor difference. The facial expression. The mirror shield looks terrified. The ST entrance looks angry and evil and the temple entrance doesn´t have a distinct (spelling, language) expression to me.

But this does not mean that I throw your theory away. because it could be based on the same creature with different facial expressions. And if you dig into that, I´m sure that you can find some symbolics in the expressions. I´m just to tired right now to even try ^^.

So there is still the mayor question. What is the creature the design is based on? Is it extinct? Has it even existed? Is it the terminians picture of the giants faces? *I probaly could continue my list, but now I´m gonna sleep ^^*

Thanks for that purple encrusted uberwelcome.

Is it the terminians picture of the giants faces?

Interesting. The Temple entrance certainly bears a strong resemblance to the giants' faces (albeit a lot more menacing, reflecting the Stone Tower builders' disdain toward the Godesses).
If the builders of the tower built four phalluses to insult the Godesses and to show that they believed that masculine Giants were superior to the feminine Godesses, it would make sense for them to build a giant statue of one of the giants' heads as the entrance to the Stone Tower Temple.
If you also think that the statue is on top of the Stone Tower, perhaps the Tower was meant to represent the Giants.
Another possibility is that these creatures are what the garo's look like beneath their cloaks.
(On a sidenote, why is the Stone Tower always referred to in the singular when there are three visible towers?)

Even though I see the similaries of these pictures, there is one mayor difference. The facial expression.

Yes, that's confusing. Perhaps the creature on the shield and statues (if they are indeed the same) being portrayed on the shield as terrified has something to do with the tower being flipped and the ambitions of the Stone Tower Builders being crushed with the introduction of Majora's Mask.