Stone Tower of Babel: Why Termina was Doomed

How interesting. Wow, I support this theory completely (>'')>

Very interesting theories, Dan, most of which I consider very plausible.

Now, about this image right here.

Majora’s mask only has two sets of spikes on its sides, as has been discussed earlier. There is one set on it top. I think that each set would represent a giant. The complete mask, however, has five sets. This makes sense if the Giant’s Mask is in fact the remains of a fifth giant. At the time that statue was carved, maybe Majora (whom the people might have followed, if it was an enemy of the gods) had only three giants guarded (possibly the Giant’s Mask giant was alive). Perhaps the people only believed in three of the (supposedly) five giants. I would think that two of the three giants represented here are the (supposedly) two giants of Ikana. The third... I don’t know. Perhaps we should study the rest of Termina’s architecture for more evidence. And notice also that the spikes point downward (and since the tower is flipped, upward, toward heaven). The mask, however, being right-side-up in the upside-down tower, was upside-down. Confusing, but it might mean something.

About that phallic images and disrespect toward the Triforce gods... I don’t doubt this idea. And if that whole theory about the “blood-stained” ruby and the flipping of the tower is correct, it all fits. The phallic images might have been more symbols of male dominance than of rude implications. Perhaps the people (or just the men) wanted to fight the gods (possibly because they thought they were superior to female gods). That may have been the reason the Tower of Babel was constructed in the first place. To try to fight God (or, in this case, Triforce gods). It was pointed out earlier that the flipped tower had more feminine-sounding voices while the non-flipped tower had deeper male voices. Perhaps this has to do with gender and the flipping of the tower (or it could just be for a different kind of atmosphere). Maybe we’re all reading into things a little too much, or maybe this is plausible. I say someone who knows Japanese well should ask Miyamoto.

Final Fantasy 4 (I would think unrelated, but still interesting) had a Tower of Babel, within which was a sleeping giant that woke up and rampaged the world (just like MM had a giant within Stone Tower, or, if the theory is correct, the Tower of Babel).
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Originally Posted by PurachinaIto

In OoT, ganon comes from the west. But Majora sems to come from the east of Termina. However, i think I read somewhere that the gods come from the east- the sunrise.

Twilight Princess unfortunately throws a monkey wrench into that theory, since the sun stupidly rises in the west and sets in the east. It seems that detail isn't important to Nintendo. (For the record: I adore TP but the mirroring bugs me.)

Originally Posted by JJAB91

How do the Bosses fit in the theroy?

Originally Posted by Daphnes

The bosses were evil spirits that possessed the Giants, so they couldn't protect Termina anymore. When you beat the boss, the spirit comes into the mask. At the end, Majora reclaims the masks, and they attack during the second part of the first phase.

Daphnes' theory seems accurate. I don't know if there's more of a story to the boss masks or not.

Originally Posted by SoL_

Majora’s mask only has two sets of spikes on its sides, as has been discussed earlier. There is one set on it top. I think that each set would represent a giant. The complete mask, however, has five sets. This makes sense if the Giant’s Mask is in fact the remains of a fifth giant. At the time that statue was carved, maybe Majora (whom the people might have followed, if it was an enemy of the gods) had only three giants guarded (possibly the Giant’s Mask giant was alive). Perhaps the people only believed in three of the (supposedly) five giants. I would think that two of the three giants represented here are the (supposedly) two giants of Ikana. The third... I don’t know. Perhaps we should study the rest of Termina’s architecture for more evidence.

The Majora emblems on blocks and warp points in the temples have one more set of spikes than the Stone Tower statue and one less than Majora's Mask itself; I don't know if that means anything.

The phallic images might have been more symbols of male dominance than of rude implications.

I think both heavily factor into it. The pointing hand and tongues are definitely sending obscene messages.

Final Fantasy 4 (I would think unrelated, but still interesting) had a Tower of Babel, within which was a sleeping giant that woke up and rampaged the world (just like MM had a giant within Stone Tower, or, if the theory is correct, the Tower of Babel).

I think Nimrod, the main architect of the Tower of Babel, was a giant, which would explain this theme.

Originally Posted by SoL_

Very interesting theories, Dan, most of which I consider very plausible.

Now, about this image right here.

Majora’s mask only has two sets of spikes on its sides, as has been discussed earlier. There is one set on it top. I think that each set would represent a giant. The complete mask, however, has five sets. This makes sense if the Giant’s Mask is in fact the remains of a fifth giant. At the time that statue was carved, maybe Majora (whom the people might have followed, if it was an enemy of the gods) had only three giants guarded (possibly the Giant’s Mask giant was alive). Perhaps the people only believed in three of the (supposedly) five giants. I would think that two of the three giants represented here are the (supposedly) two giants of Ikana. The third... I don’t know. Perhaps we should study the rest of Termina’s architecture for more evidence. And notice also that the spikes point downward (and since the tower is flipped, upward, toward heaven). The mask, however, being right-side-up in the upside-down tower, was upside-down. Confusing, but it might mean something.

About that phallic images and disrespect toward the Triforce gods... I don’t doubt this idea. And if that whole theory about the “blood-stained” ruby and the flipping of the tower is correct, it all fits. The phallic images might have been more symbols of male dominance than of rude implications. Perhaps the people (or just the men) wanted to fight the gods (possibly because they thought they were superior to female gods). That may have been the reason the Tower of Babel was constructed in the first place. To try to fight God (or, in this case, Triforce gods). It was pointed out earlier that the flipped tower had more feminine-sounding voices while the non-flipped tower had deeper male voices. Perhaps this has to do with gender and the flipping of the tower (or it could just be for a different kind of atmosphere). Maybe we’re all reading into things a little too much, or maybe this is plausible. I say someone who knows Japanese well should ask Miyamoto.

Final Fantasy 4 (I would think unrelated, but still interesting) had a Tower of Babel, within which was a sleeping giant that woke up and rampaged the world (just like MM had a giant within Stone Tower, or, if the theory is correct, the Tower of Babel).
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Wow, this is really interesting! And it all is making sense and coming together! So, about this picture, I can see the resmblence to Majora's Mask and all, and about the Stone Mask being maybe the mask of another giant...and your theory on that, interesting! Since you do recieve the stone mask in Ikana, it must have something to do with the stone tower and the Ikana kingdom..!

hmmm, time for another crazy theory! You all have noticed that the various images and statues of Majoras Mask have different sets of spikes, rignt?

Well, how about that Majora gain more sets if she becomes stronger? That could work, even though I can´t remeber how many sets she has where. (Doesn´t she just have three sets in Stonetower?) That could be because she was pretty weak when she had just been released, but then got stronger because of all the sefish desires and wishes in Ikana walley. (The garos wanted to kill the Ikana royal family, and vice versa.) And after the fall of Ikana, she had gained enough strenght to leave the walley and corrupt the other directions to.

this is all speculations, I don´t have proof for any of it.

Why does the sun rise in west? It could mean something...Does it do that in all Zelda games?

By teh way, I found some more godess/gods-rise.from-the-east proof. (they are all from the bible, and I just checked a few pages)

1. Eden was in the east
2. The angel that would destroy the world rose from the east.

Keep this in mind, though. It's hard to find compass directions using MM's minimaps in the corner. Most of them don't face north at the top. It could very well set in the west. It's a little hard to notice, but it's true.

The sun rises in the east and sets in the west in Termina. In Twilight Princess the world is mirrored because of the stupid righty Link issue, so the sun rises in the west and sets in the east.

Originally Posted by PurachinaIto

Well, how about that Majora gain more sets if she becomes stronger? That could work, even though I can´t remeber how many sets she has where. (Doesn´t she just have three sets in Stonetower?) That could be because she was pretty weak when she had just been released, but then got stronger because of all the sefish desires and wishes in Ikana walley. (The garos wanted to kill the Ikana royal family, and vice versa.) And after the fall of Ikana, she had gained enough strenght to leave the walley and corrupt the other directions to.

Ignoring the spikes above the eyes, the Mask has two sets of spikes on the Stone Tower statue, two sets in Twinmolds desert (as well as a possible mouth, nose, and third eye), three sets on the platforms that warp Link to boss lairs, and four sets on the actual mask in the game. Maybe it's supposed to represent a corrupted heart: with no spikes, Majora's Mask looks like a heart, but then the spikes emerge and it becomes much more horrible. And PurachinaIto, your avatar shows that the spikes are colored blue, green, red, and yellow, which are the colors that represent the four worlds of Termina. Yellow represents the East, and Majora's Mask has two sets of yellow spikes.

The boss lair warp platforms aren't heart shaped- they're missing the bottom point, like the Stone Tower statue.

What do you guys think of the Majora's Mask balloons in Clock Town? I'd dismissed them as meaningless, but now that all this stuff has come I'm reluctant to continue ignoring them. Did Majora's Mask eventually become a celebrated part of Termina's culture? Did inspire the role masks play in that culture? Where in Termina did the Happy Mask Salesman find the mask?

Small Thought. Hit me if im being stupid.

you know when you talk to that mysterious man who only lets you pass with the Garo Mask? You start to walk to see those enemies...Nejirons. You know, smells like gunpowder?

Do they Look like the men on the Blocks leading into the temple? they're in the same fetile position and maybe the same facial expression?

Also, The Soulless Shells: Garos. The Ikana King said, when giving you the Elegy of Emptiness, you could summon a solider without a soul, a shell. I'm sorry i don't have the real quote...Anywho. I guess the King made them shells to do stuff....im lazy and freaked out, and i remember this being asked, and i feel dumb for just throwing it out here.

Originally Posted by Link_38

Small Thought. Hit me if im being stupid.

you know when you talk to that mysterious man who only lets you pass with the Garo Mask? You start to walk to see those enemies...Nejirons. You know, smells like gunpowder?

Do they Look like the men on the Blocks leading into the temple? they're in the same fetile position and maybe the same facial expression?

Also, The Soulless Shells: Garos. The Ikana King said, when giving you the Elegy of Emptiness, you could summon a solider without a soul, a shell. I'm sorry i don't have the real quote...Anywho. I guess the King made them shells to do stuff....im lazy and freaked out, and i remember this being asked, and i feel dumb for just throwing it out here.

But that would mean that nejirons were special, or even worshiped. I think they´re simply annoying creatures that can be easily dodged. And why would anyone make a nejirons theme for a temple for Majora (or twinmolds)? If there were similiar things at other places in the game, it could work. But the truth is, I don´t think that the blocks are supposed to look like nejirons. ( That doesn´t mean that I know what they´re supposed to look like).

And second, the Garos fought the Ikana royal family. The Garos weren´t creted by the Ikana king, because he tried to kill them. ( But why in the wide world does he know the elegy of emptiness?) And if you think that the kings soldiers were soulless shells, it´s not that way either. The masked one rescurrected the royal family, and his soldiers couldn´t find any peace in death.

Don´t feel stupid! You did your best! And you should always speak your mind, unless it´s something mean

Originally Posted by Hylian Dan

. Yellow represents the East, and Majora's Mask has two sets of yellow spikes.

It truely seems as though you are pulling anything out of the game and twisting it into your favour, it's a simple coincidence that the horns are yellow.

What do you guys think of the Majora's Mask balloons in Clock Town? I'd dismissed them as meaningless, but now that all this stuff has come I'm reluctant to continue ignoring them. Did Majora's Mask eventually become a celebrated part of Termina's culture?

I honestly thought the mask was on the balloon because Skull Kid bothered the Bombers. I would be more concerned with the large appearance of the masks design on switches and blocks. In modern Termina I'm sure Majora was hardly thought about if the only appearances of it are on balloons used by people peeved at him.
And we know the Giants inspired the use of masks in the culture.

Originally Posted by Magic-TEch

It truely seems as though you are pulling anything out of the game and twisting it into your favour, it's a simple coincidence that the horns are yellow.

I'm not using this sort of evidence to try to prove any points. I don't expect to reach any solid conclusions with evidence like this; I'm just pointing this stuff out in case it leads anywhere.

I honestly thought the mask was on the balloon because Skull Kid bothered the Bombers.

That answers my question, then.

Originally Posted by PurachinaIto

( But why in the wide world does he know the elegy of emptiness?)

Sharp (and maybe Flat) composed the Elegy of Emptiness. Flat said that all the songs connected to the Royal Family of Ikana were composed by himself and Sharp. Sharp mentioned that he was the one who knew the way into the temple.

Wow. Amazing theory, it really sounds like you've discovered something here! After reading through the many pages of this thread it's hard not to be persuaded by the way everything seems to fit together! Everyone who contributed helped too.

Praise aside, there's one thing I don't quite get. It might even be slightly off topic. I don't think it's been asked yet, although I do have a tendency to forget what I read a few second before...

In your theory, Termina as a whole rejected the Three Goddesses and chose to worship the Giants, correct? Later, you say that The Goddess of Time is believed to be Nayru. So why is the Goddess of Time mentioned so frequently, if she is one of the three Goddesses? If they plead to her, or acknowledge her at all, and she is in fact Nayru, the it doesn't make sense for them to have rejected the Goddesses if they still worship, in some sense or another, Nayru. Maybe they don't realize they're the same entity, or maybe the Goddess of Time and Nayru are in fact different beings.

Another Goddess of Time thing; Hylian Dan, you quoted this guy:

Originally Posted by ?
There's no time left. Hurry! We have to hide...

Only a little more than two days left...Oh, Goddess of Time, please save me...

Only a little more than one day left...Oh, Goddess of Time, please save me...

Only a little time left... Oh, Goddess of Time, please save me...

Did you find exactly who said this? I know that when you posted it you didn't know, but you thought it was the guy goes to the Ocean Spider House. If you know, I'd like to know.. . Actually, I have no recollection of someone being there at all, other than those Skeleton thingies (Stal Childs?) Maybe I just didn't pay enough attention to the small details?

Another thing that I was thinking about... So after the game ends, the Goddesses decide they should not have given up on Termina so easily, and decide to spare it, yes? And then they forgive Termina. However, what would the inhabitants of Termina think? They are not aware of the Goddesses, so basically they have no idea why they were nearly crushed. (Do they even realize the Skull Kid/Majora's mask was behind it?) They would continue worshiping the Giants because they were the ones who stopped the moon. Wouldn't this somehow anger the Goddesses? They're not really offending them anymore, just not really worshiping them. Would that matter to the Goddesses at all? - if it did, would there have been any point in sparing Termina in the end? I mean, they are still not really aware they exist. One has to wonder what became of Termina after MM... Okay, so this last bit doesn't make much sense... Well, I just thought I'd get this down before I lost it.

And so, after this I have come to the conclusion that I need to play Majora's Mask again. God I love that game. This thread has reminded me of what makes that game so good... So now I'm off to play it =D

(As side note.. W00t first post!)

Those individuals who are still loyal to the Godesses will still be protected, just as Noah's family was protected by God in the Bible. I guess those like Link, and the Terminians praying to the Godess of Time will be protected even though they are in a forsaken land.

As for any lack of knowledge of hat exactly happoened, the people would still evee the giants. Unless those Giants set the story straight, and efused to be worshipped. If all these things were truly thought about by the creators, then it could set up the sequel.

Majora might return, or it could be something else. I would like to see a sequel to that, though it might be hard to fit in the timeline with OoT and TP.

The garos could not have built the Stone tower, I just went through the castle of Ikana and found one of the blocks where the guy was licking the triforce inside it. So the stone tower was probably not the Garo's territory. Sad to say, really.

Edit: Here's a snapshot.

Originally Posted by Surio

The garos could not have built the Stone tower, I just went through the castle of Ikana and found one of the blocks where the guy was licking the triforce inside it. So the stone tower was probably not the Garo's territory. Sad to say, really.

Edit: Here's a snapshot.

Well the Ikanas tried many times to conquer (spelling) the stone tower. And those blocks are found outside. (or inside the tower, but outside the temple). Perhaps it was a trophy, brought to the castle by the king. (like he´s saying: Hey look! We´ve got one of your precious stones! and you can´t do a thing about it!).

Is the block blocking something? I don´t remember, but if it´s blocking anything it could (could, not very plausible) be a part of a plot made by the Garos. Like making sure than none can enter the royal chamber and meet with the king. (hmm, not very plausible)

Or the king liked the abomination (I don´t know if it´s the right word) against the godesess design and copied it

What kind of a creature is the blocks supposed to look like? They have very long tounges....

Anyway, the king said that "even thousand of my soldiers couldn´t conquer the stone tower" (perhaps he didn´t use exactly those words....) But Link was able to conquer it on his own. Simly equiped with a hookshoot and a melody. But shouldn´t the king be able to do the same thing? He was the one that taught (spelling) Link the Elegy of emptiness! All you need then is some sort of instrument, and he was a king. Surely he must own some sort of instrument? Or why not send any of his soldiers, or captains or something like that? In all those years.....

Originally Posted by PurachinaIto

Well the Ikanas tried many times to conquer (spelling) the stone tower. And those blocks are found outside. (or inside the tower, but outside the temple). Perhaps it was a trophy, brought to the castle by the king. (like he´s saying: Hey look! We´ve got one of your precious stones! and you can´t do a thing about it!).

Is the block blocking something? I don´t remember, but if it´s blocking anything it could (could, not very plausible) be a part of a plot made by the Garos. Like making sure than none can enter the royal chamber and meet with the king. (hmm, not very plausible)

Or the king liked the abomination (I don´t know if it´s the right word) against the godesess design and copied it

What kind of a creature is the blocks supposed to look like? They have very long tounges....

Anyway, the king said that "even thousand of my soldiers couldn´t conquer the stone tower" (perhaps he didn´t use exactly those words....) But Link was able to conquer it on his own. Simly equiped with a hookshoot and a melody. But shouldn´t the king be able to do the same thing? He was the one that taught (spelling) Link the Elegy of emptiness! All you need then is some sort of instrument, and he was a king. Surely he must own some sort of instrument? Or why not send any of his soldiers, or captains or something like that? In all those years.....

I always found that wierd. All it takes if our people equipped with hookshots. I don't think the makers of the game thought out that part vey well, because I don't see how a hundred men would have any difficulty with the tower.

They are great theories! Good Work. do you know any theories about OoT if there are any?

I must say, that was a very interesting theory. I had to play Majora's Mask and check these things out for myself. Although I still can't jump unto the phallus when Stone Tower is upside down(I tried many times, but just couldn't quite make it). Something I've always wondered about though is what is up with Link's Mirror Shield? What is the deal with the sad, scared looking face? I figured it must have some mystery, being that it is found in Ikana Valley. Plus, the Happy Mask Salesman has a mask with the exact same face on his backpack. Anyone have any interesting theories about this?

I'm playing through Twilight Princess as slowly as I can, so it will be a few weeks before I can really start writing and reading theories about its story. That said, there is content in it that might be able to support the Stone Tower theory. Pay attention to the backstory as you get to dungeon number four.

I'm currently at the entrance to this dungeon. It's foreshadowed in the same way the Stone Tower is. You see it mysteriously looming in the distance long before you can enter it.

MAJOR SPOILER:

Apparently a race in Hyrule also tried to revolt against the goddesses and take over the Sacred Realm. The current leader of this race is the one who wears the mask with its tongue sticking out. The goddesses banished these people from Hyrule. The fourth dungeon contains something that will let one enter the realm they are imprisoned in.
This story seems to have quite a bit in common with the Stone Tower story.

Originally Posted by Surio

The garos could not have built the Stone tower, I just went through the castle of Ikana and found one of the blocks where the guy was licking the triforce inside it. So the stone tower was probably not the Garo's territory. Sad to say, really.

Still, I agree with what Surio said. It strongly implied that the Stone Tower was an enemy stronghold, and we also know that the Royal Composers had been researching a way to infiltrate it, and came up with the Elegy of Emptiness. I think it's more plausible that the Ikanians took that block from the tower than the idea that they built the tower. Plus, there are Garos in Ikana Castle, so who knows. Maybe they have something to do with that block.

The block was blocking sunlight from entering the interior of the castle.

Originally Posted by PurachinaIto

But that would mean that nejirons were special, or even worshiped. I think they´re simply annoying creatures that can be easily dodged. And why would anyone make a nejirons theme for a temple for Majora (or twinmolds)? If there were similiar things at other places in the game, it could work. But the truth is, I don´t think that the blocks are supposed to look like nejirons. ( That doesn´t mean that I know what they´re supposed to look like).

The creatures depicted by the blocks might not have been worshipped. The point the builders were making may have been to show even the most vile creatures of Termina mocking the Triforce. So maybe their designs are related. Too bad Nintendo didn't release a booklet with all the conceptual art used for the game.

Originally Posted by Mizutori

Did you find exactly who said this? I know that when you posted it you didn't know, but you thought it was the guy goes to the Ocean Spider House. If you know, I'd like to know.. . Actually, I have no recollection of someone being there at all, other than those Skeleton thingies (Stal Childs?) Maybe I just didn't pay enough attention to the small details?

I think on days 2 and 3, and/or after you clear the spiders, a guy appears to seek refuge in that house. I haven't gone back to check because I'm not sure if I'd have to clear out the spiders again to hear him say that, and because I forgot.

In your theory, Termina as a whole rejected the Three Goddesses and chose to worship the Giants, correct? Later, you say that The Goddess of Time is believed to be Nayru. So why is the Goddess of Time mentioned so frequently, if she is one of the three Goddesses? If they plead to her, or acknowledge her at all, and she is in fact Nayru, the it doesn't make sense for them to have rejected the Goddesses if they still worship, in some sense or another, Nayru. Maybe they don't realize they're the same entity, or maybe the Goddess of Time and Nayru are in fact different beings.

Another thing that I was thinking about... So after the game ends, the Goddesses decide they should not have given up on Termina so easily, and decide to spare it, yes? And then they forgive Termina. However, what would the inhabitants of Termina think? They are not aware of the Goddesses, so basically they have no idea why they were nearly crushed. (Do they even realize the Skull Kid/Majora's mask was behind it?) They would continue worshiping the Giants because they were the ones who stopped the moon. Wouldn't this somehow anger the Goddesses? They're not really offending them anymore, just not really worshiping them. Would that matter to the Goddesses at all? - if it did, would there have been any point in sparing Termina in the end? I mean, they are still not really aware they exist. One has to wonder what became of Termina after MM... Okay, so this last bit doesn't make much sense... Well, I just thought I'd get this down before I lost it.

I don't have a solid answer for this. I think TP will give us more material to use to understand the intentions of the goddesses. Taking only MM into account, maybe the point was that the crime of the Stone Tower builders stained the land. Because the revolt had occurred long ago and didn't reflect the mindset of modern Termina, the goddesses might have wanted to clear Termina of that stain (which was sort of embodied by Majora) and let the realm continue to exist, rather than wiping it out entirely.

Originally Posted by AugustWinterman

Although I still can't jump unto the phallus when Stone Tower is upside down(I tried many times, but just couldn't quite make it).

You jump farther if you wear the bunny hood or roll before jumping.

Something I've always wondered about though is what is up with Link's Mirror Shield? What is the deal with the sad, scared looking face? I figured it must have some mystery, being that it is found in Ikana Valley. Plus, the Happy Mask Salesman has a mask with the exact same face on his backpack. Anyone have any interesting theories about this?

I've wondered about that many times, but I don't really have any theories about it.

Daphnes]I always found that wierd. All it takes if our people equipped with hookshots. I don't think the makers of the game thought out that part vey well, because I don't see how a hundred men would have any difficulty with the tower.

Yeah, that seemed like an exaggeration. I don't know, maybe there's a connection between the evil force within the tower and the fact that both the statues and the Garos were soulless shells.

Originally Posted by jamie_hunt

do you know any theories about OoT if there are any?

Many people, including me, believe Ganondorf forged the message in a bottle from Ruto.

Originally Posted by Mizutori

And so, after this I have come to the conclusion that I need to play Majora's Mask again. God I love that game. This thread has reminded me of what makes that game so good... So now I'm off to play it =D

I replayed the game's intro recently, and it seemed a lot more creepy and ominous this time around.
Which reminds me, once Majora turns you into a Deku Scrub, you have to open a door that has a weird creepy face on it. Welcome to Termina. I think it has its mouth open, and the swirls that suround the face sort of have the same shape as the swirls on the blood-stained Stone Tower emblem. In the same room, you can also see the design of the inverted, broken Triforce. In the next room, you see Termina's compass emblem for the first time in a large pattern on the floor. On the back wall of the Clock Tower interior, the is a very prominent design of a blue man with two faces, one has his head and one in his stomach. Any thoughts about what it might signify? The same design is present in Ikana Castle, and on the robes of the mysterious ghost who lets you pass into Ikana.

Awesome theory, you have cleared my mind!!
But... I can't beleive Stone Tower made all this!