war hammer 40,000

Ok who here plays war hammer 40k? and if you do say your faction

General Gaming.

No **** Einstein. You know a mod will move it.

So back to the real topic:
You mean the table top or the pc game? I play the RTS, unfortunately don't have the last expansion. But I really like the Imperial Guard for some reason, I think it's the massive tanks.

Just a couple of notes here - "Warhammer 40,000" generally refers to the table-top game, not the video game. The latter would be "Dawn of War", or if you want to go back in time a decade or so, maybe Final Liberation or Chaos Gate. Neither of which were as much fun (but none of them are terribly accurate anyway).

So, yeah. This actually goes in Entertainment. And more on-topic, I play Chaos Space Marines, although I have been thinking of switching to Chaos Daemons. The latest CSM Codex kinda killed the army for me. :/

Well it is a game, and I'm not sure if "General Gaming" is restricted to electronic games. But sure.


I've stopped playing the game with the aim of taking huge armies to the table because we always used to get bored after like two hours of dice-rolling and model moving, not to mention Games Workshop's policy of extorting huge amounts of cash from its customers even to see if you like the game (in excess of £200 for a decent-sized army). So instead we just collect smaller armies for Kill-Team games. Although I do buy a variety of different sets to add to my general Inquisition army (Daemonhunters/Witchhunters, and Xenohunters should they ever be released).

I tend to buy the codexes for armies I have no intention of collecting purely out of interest though. You're right, the latest Chaos Space Marine Codex is absolutely terrible. I see no good reason for splitting up the Daemons and the general Chaos armies, they worked just fine the way they were.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

Well it is a game, and I'm not sure if "General Gaming" is restricted to electronic games. But sure.

The description for General Gaming specifically refers to video games.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

I've stopped playing the game with the aim of taking huge armies to the table because we always used to get bored after like two hours of dice-rolling and model moving, not to mention Games Workshop's policy of extorting huge amounts of cash from its customers even to see if you like the game (in excess of £200 for a decent-sized army). So instead we just collect smaller armies for Kill-Team games. Although I do buy a variety of different sets to add to my general Inquisition army (Daemonhunters/Witchhunters, and Xenohunters should they ever be released).

I take it you haven't got the fifth edition rulebook? Because they decided to ditch the kill-team rules in that one, which I'm kinda upset about. Kill-team was fun. And, as you said, I didn't have to shell out a coupla hundred quid for a decent army.

Mind you, considering how long I've been playing, I can usually field up to a 2,000 point force without any problems, so it's not such a big issue for me.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

I tend to buy the codexes for armies I have no intention of collecting purely out of interest though. You're right, the latest Chaos Space Marine Codex is absolutely terrible. I see no good reason for splitting up the Daemons and the general Chaos armies, they worked just fine the way they were.

Oh, it's a darned sight worse than that. -_- If you care to look up the differences between current and old versions of Obliterators, you'll notice that they're now strength and toughness 4 instead of 5, which means these 75-point infantry models can be instant-killed by a missile launcher. Seen as I play CSMs, anyone who doesn't take missile launchers or lascannons etc against me is a complete idiot, and so my Obliterators are now useless.

Then there's the near-complete lack of options for customising my troops.

And the fact that my psychic powers, except for Gift of Chaos and Bolt of Change, are merely watered-down version of Space Marine psychic powers.

Also, once again, Chaos Space Marines have been denied access to assault cannons, storm bolters, and plasma cannons for no apparent reason, despite the fact that renegades would obviously have them. Me and my brothers have been referring to this as "the Curse of the Emperor" for a few years now.

Not to mention the fact that it is now completely impossible to field any of the cult Legions, and damned hard to field most of the undivided ones as well. In fact, about all you can field and match the background is Black Legion.

...okay, I think I'll stop now. About the only things I think they did right is that Sorcerers can use force weapons now, and the Thousand Sons troop squads are frickin' great.

/rant

Originally Posted by Tiroth

The description for General Gaming specifically refers to video games.

So it does D:

I take it you haven't got the fifth edition rulebook? Because they decided to ditch the kill-team rules in that one, which I'm kinda upset about. Kill-team was fun. And, as you said, I didn't have to shell out a coupla hundred quid for a decent army.

Mind you, considering how long I've been playing, I can usually field up to a 2,000 point force without any problems, so it's not such a big issue for me.

What seriously? That is without a doubt total and utter bollocks. Screw that, we'll just be using the old rules for it regardless, unless they're somehow incompatible with newer rules.

Oh, it's a darned sight worse than that. -_- If you care to look up the differences between current and old versions of Obliterators, you'll notice that they're now strength and toughness 4 instead of 5, which means these 75-point infantry models can be instant-killed by a missile launcher. Seen as I play CSMs, anyone who doesn't take missile launchers or lascannons etc against me is a complete idiot, and so my Obliterators are now useless.

Then there's the near-complete lack of options for customising my troops.

And the fact that my psychic powers, except for Gift of Chaos and Bolt of Change, are merely watered-down version of Space Marine psychic powers.

Also, once again, Chaos Space Marines have been denied access to assault cannons, storm bolters, and plasma cannons for no apparent reason, despite the fact that renegades would obviously have them. Me and my brothers have been referring to this as "the Curse of the Emperor" for a few years now.

Not to mention the fact that it is now completely impossible to field any of the cult Legions, and damned hard to field most of the undivided ones as well. In fact, about all you can field and match the background is Black Legion.

...okay, I think I'll stop now. About the only things I think they did right is that Sorcerers can use force weapons now, and the Thousand Sons troop squads are frickin' great.

/rant

I didn't have the last CSM codex, all I know is that the current one sucks donkey balls. The general format of newer codexes is incredibly bland (no more awesome art or troop descriptions next to their stat entries), and of course the obvious lack of Chaos God-specific daemons. The fluff for the special characters is short and terrible as opposed to the previous page or two, etc.

You're right though, looking at the codex Obliterators for some obscene reason are on-par with Noise Marines, Plague Marines, Khorne Berzerkers, AND Thousand Sons. Considering the size, and cost, all you get is a choice from all kinds of heavy weapons every turn, which aren't all useful in one go. Particularly useless really.

And of course, didn't you know? As soon as you turn your back on the Emperor's light you have to throw away your best weapons.


I've heard that they'll be making a combined Inquisition codex in this edition though, which I'm naturally interested in. A combined army of Grey Knights, Sisters of Battle, and the Deathwatch (or whatever they may offer as an alternative should they decide to retcon the DW) would certainly be interesting, but I'm hoping they may bring out troops belonging specifically to the Inquisition (like something along the lines of the Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, but more varied), as opposed to the various chamber militants. Or indeed, what changes (read: bastardizations) they'll be performing on the Grey Knights (who are only REALLY good against Daemons, they're just generally good against anyone else, and at a high cost to boot).

Originally Posted by Lelouch

What seriously? That is without a doubt total and utter bollocks. Screw that, we'll just be using the old rules for it regardless, unless they're somehow incompatible with newer rules.

Nah, it's still compatible - in fact, as far as the actual rules go, the only thing that really effects me in fifth ed is defensive weapons on vehicles now being strength 4 or lower. Means the heavy bolter sponsons on my Predator are now fairly useless. Blinking pain, that.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

I didn't have the last CSM codex, all I know is that the current one sucks donkey balls. The general format of newer codexes is incredibly bland (no more awesome art or troop descriptions next to their stat entries), and of course the obvious lack of Chaos God-specific daemons. The fluff for the special characters is short and terrible as opposed to the previous page or two, etc.

So I've noticed. -_- It matches the style of codex/army book they've been using for Fantasy Warhammer, and I really don't like it. Half the fluff is gone, I keep having to flick from the front of the codex to the back to check all the rules, the Armoury no longer exists - and that really ticks me off, because I loved customising my squads - and GW has the gall to say it's actually better this way.

Of course, it doesn't help that they basically ripped all aspects of the Chaos Gods that meant something out of the army and dumped it all in Chaos Daemons. Things like the rivalries, patron-specific equipment, etc.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

You're right though, looking at the codex Obliterators for some obscene reason are on-par with Noise Marines, Plague Marines, Khorne Berzerkers, AND Thousand Sons. Considering the size, and cost, all you get is a choice from all kinds of heavy weapons every turn, which aren't all useful in one go. Particularly useless really.

They were absolutely wonderful in the old codex. Okay, the only real differences were being 5 points cheaper and have an extra point of strength and toughness, but that makes a world of difference. My favourite tactic was to use them against Necrons and send my Obliterators Monolith-hunting. Six wounds between them, Necrons couldn't instant-kill them, and they were almost guaranteed to bring the blasted Monolith down...and woe betide any puny Necrons that got in the way.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

And of course, didn't you know? As soon as you turn your back on the Emperor's light you have to throw away your best weapons.

Close. The Curse of the Emperor idea usually went something like this;

*termie gets fed up of being a Space Marine*

*termie forsakes Emperor*

Emperor: Oh, no you don't.

*emperor curses termie*

*termie's storm bolter/assault cannon/cyclone missile launcher mutates into a Lesser Weapon*

Termie: *screams*

Originally Posted by Lelouch

I've heard that they'll be making a combined Inquisition codex in this edition though, which I'm naturally interested in. A combined army of Grey Knights, Sisters of Battle, and the Deathwatch (or whatever they may offer as an alternative should they decide to retcon the DW) would certainly be interesting, but I'm hoping they may bring out troops belonging specifically to the Inquisition (like something along the lines of the Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, but more varied), as opposed to the various chamber militants. Or indeed, what changes (read: bastardizations) they'll be performing on the Grey Knights (who are only REALLY good against Daemons, they're just generally good against anyone else, and at a high cost to boot).

If they did it right, that would be one heck of an army to play as - and probably against as well (after all, one tires of slaughtering Necrons eventually). I'd be very nervous about changes to the Grey Knights myself, though, because those guys are meant to be great against daemons and just good against everyone else. It's the whole point of their existence.

And they'd better not try to ret-con the Deathwatch. They'd probably be slaughtered by the fans if they did.

Originally Posted by Tiroth

Nah, it's still compatible - in fact, as far as the actual rules go, the only thing that really effects me in fifth ed is defensive weapons on vehicles now being strength 4 or lower. Means the heavy bolter sponsons on my Predator are now fairly useless. Blinking pain, that.

So yeah, Kill-Team should be fine. Screw the new-ed Codex.

So I've noticed. -_- It matches the style of codex/army book they've been using for Fantasy Warhammer, and I really don't like it. Half the fluff is gone, I keep having to flick from the front of the codex to the back to check all the rules, the Armoury no longer exists - and that really ticks me off, because I loved customising my squads - and GW has the gall to say it's actually better this way.

Of course, it doesn't help that they basically ripped all aspects of the Chaos Gods that meant something out of the army and dumped it all in Chaos Daemons. Things like the rivalries, patron-specific equipment, etc.

I thought the Marks of the Chaos Gods were crapper this time around as well. =/

I rather liked the way they did the old Fantasy codexes but mine aren't new-ed either. They were the same as the last ed 40K ones basically, fluff at the front, rules at the back.

They were absolutely wonderful in the old codex. Okay, the only real differences were being 5 points cheaper and have an extra point of strength and toughness, but that makes a world of difference. My favourite tactic was to use them against Necrons and send my Obliterators Monolith-hunting. Six wounds between them, Necrons couldn't instant-kill them, and they were almost guaranteed to bring the blasted Monolith down...and woe betide any puny Necrons that got in the way.

That's the difference though, you're paying a lot more purely for the option to use all kinds of heavy weapons. I don't know if they had that last time around, but that's useless in practice really - I'd rather just take one choice and have those extra Strength and Toughness points for the same price.

Close. The Curse of the Emperor idea usually went something like this;

*termie gets fed up of being a Space Marine*

*termie forsakes Emperor*

Emperor: Oh, no you don't.

*emperor curses termie*

*termie's storm bolter/assault cannon/cyclone missile launcher mutates into a Lesser Weapon*

Termie: *screams*

That also works. End result is the Emperor maintains obedience by giving you good weapons.

If they did it right, that would be one heck of an army to play as - and probably against as well (after all, one tires of slaughtering Necrons eventually). I'd be very nervous about changes to the Grey Knights myself, though, because those guys are meant to be great against daemons and just good against everyone else. It's the whole point of their existence.

Well yeah. So they can basically make them crap against everything BUT daemons, or they can make them good even against normal troops. There's nothing on the official site yet though.

And they'd better not try to ret-con the Deathwatch. They'd probably be slaughtered by the fans if they did.

The current rules for the Deathwatch are actually from the 3rd ed IIRC, and are basically worse than a normal squad of Space Marines.

Not to mention C.S. Goto's books on the Deathwatch are apparently horrible.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

So yeah, Kill-Team should be fine. Screw the new-ed Codex.

Rule book, bu t yeah. I preferred fourth-ed.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

I thought the Marks of the Chaos Gods were crapper this time around as well. =/

In the current Codex, the Marks are basically just another unit upgrade; in the old Codex, it also decided what equipment they could use, whether or not you could use them in the same army (fielding troops dedicated to rival gods was a bad idea), and probably a few other things I can't think of right now. I like having the cult troops as specific choices of their own, but I still preferred the old style for the Marks.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

I rather liked the way they did the old Fantasy codexes but mine aren't new-ed either. They were the same as the last ed 40K ones basically, fluff at the front, rules at the back.

I've got a Wood Elves army book lying around somewhere, and it's the same format as the current 40k Codexes - bare bones unit entries, special rules described elsewhere, etc. Not as fun to read through. :/

Originally Posted by Lelouch

That's the difference though, you're paying a lot more purely for the option to use all kinds of heavy weapons. I don't know if they had that last time around, but that's useless in practice really - I'd rather just take one choice and have those extra Strength and Toughness points for the same price.

I don't mind paying the points for the option of changing weapon, if the unit actually has decent survivability. The old Obliterators were less likely to die than Havocs, soaked up a lot more firepower, and had around the same fire output - better, in some situations. They were worth the cost.

Now, though, they can be instant-killed by any yahoo with a missile launcher. Ergo, they're not worth it anymore.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

That also works. End result is the Emperor maintains obedience by giving you good weapons.

No wonder Horus rebelled against him. It doesn't quite explain what happened to the renegades' land speeders, though...piloting mishaps?

Originally Posted by Lelouch

Well yeah. So they can basically make them crap against everything BUT daemons, or they can make them good even against normal troops. There's nothing on the official site yet though.

How good are they against normal troops? I know they get strength bonuses and the like against daemons, but I don't know if they're the same as normal termies against everything else or not.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

The current rules for the Deathwatch are actually from the 3rd ed IIRC, and are basically worse than a normal squad of Space Marines.

Not to mention C.S. Goto's books on the Deathwatch are apparently horrible.

O.o Really? I thought the whole point of Deathwatch was that the best of the chapter serves some time in there.

And the Deathwatch books aren't that bad, but they're a long way from being my favourites. That award goes to Fire Warrior.

What about Gaunt's Ghosts? That's an awesome collection of 40k books.


I started playing 40k about when 3rd edition came out... so I've had this stuff for a while. Haven't played all that much in recent times, and I don't have a 5th edition rulebook. I did buy a new Eldar codex, just because my old one was way out of date, and I'm thinking about doing the 40k thing again.

Eldar & Space Marines are what I have, although I never really finished my Eldar army. The total lack of variety for certain unit types in the Eldar really ticked me off, although they seemed to have fixed that. (The new Farseers are cool...the new banshees are not.)

Originally Posted by Tiroth

In the current Codex, the Marks are basically just another unit upgrade; in the old Codex, it also decided what equipment they could use, whether or not you could use them in the same army (fielding troops dedicated to rival gods was a bad idea), and probably a few other things I can't think of right now. I like having the cult troops as specific choices of their own, but I still preferred the old style for the Marks.

It allowed for better thematic armies that way. This way it's just a bunch jumble of Undivided units with a troop of Slaaneshi Noise Marines here, a few Plague Marines there, and just a really messy unlikely mix.

I've got a Wood Elves army book lying around somewhere, and it's the same format as the current 40k Codexes - bare bones unit entries, special rules described elsewhere, etc. Not as fun to read through. :/

I collected Skaven, who were incredibly fascinating, so yeah.

I don't mind paying the points for the option of changing weapon, if the unit actually has decent survivability. The old Obliterators were less likely to die than Havocs, soaked up a lot more firepower, and had around the same fire output - better, in some situations. They were worth the cost.

Now, though, they can be instant-killed by any yahoo with a missile launcher. Ergo, they're not worth it anymore.

Yeah, I was just saying that even without the weapon-changing option, 75 points for those extra Strength and Toughness points is good enough for me.

No wonder Horus rebelled against him. It doesn't quite explain what happened to the renegades' land speeders, though...piloting mishaps?

A lot of piloting mishaps. Khorne makes you see red no matter where you look, Nurgle rots your eyes out, Tzeentch plans all these accidents in advance, and Slaanesh, well, the sort of things you'd be doing at high-speed don't leave much concentration-time on the road.

How good are they against normal troops? I know they get strength bonuses and the like against daemons, but I don't know if they're the same as normal termies against everything else or not.

Well, to begin with all Grey Knights are Fearless, unlike normal Space Marines who have like a lesser version of it I believe. Grey Knights can use Storm Bolters with one hand (which all are equipped with), meaning they count as bolt pistols for the purposes of close combat, earning them an extra attack dice if they have a normal weapon.

Every Grey Knight has Aegis armour, which means that if an enemy psyker uses a power that targets a Grey Knight squad, the squad can roll a D6 and add that to the highest leadership in the squad. The psyker must then roll equal or higher, it's successful, otherwise it fails.

They also have an ability called "The Shrouding", which means that whenever shooting at a unit of Grey Knights, the enemy must roll a 3D6 to see what distance the Grey Knights can be shot at from (like night-fighting but as a standard rule for shooting at any Grey Knight unit).

Each Grey Knight carries a Nemesis Force Weapon, which adds +2 to their standard Strength of 4 in all situations, and are one-handed weapons. If the user is a Justicar or a Grey Knight Terminator, it counts as a power weapon, if it's a Grand Master it also counts as a Force Weapon. Standard Grey Knights have a save of 3+, termies have a save of 2+.

A squad of Grey Knight Terminators can also buy the psyker ability Holocaust, which places an ordnance template in contact with the Brother-Captain, and all under it take a strength 5 hit, while all partially under it take that hit on a roll of 4+.

And come to think of it, that's just as standard. Against Grey Knights, every daemon on the field has -1 leadership for the sake of instability tests, and Grey Knights have a whole bunch of weapons against which invulnerability saves can't be used (the only kind of save daemons have).

The downside is the price - A standard Grey Knight is 25 points, and a standard Grey Knight Terminator is 46 points.

O.o Really? I thought the whole point of Deathwatch was that the best of the chapter serves some time in there.

That's what it should be, yeah. The Inquisition requests that these given chapters send their best to serve for a certain period with the Ordo Xenos, but the rules as they are now (which haven't been updated with 4th ed) are basically a more expensive, crapper version of a normal Marine with extra weapon options and a nice shoulderpad.

And the Deathwatch books aren't that bad, but they're a long way from being my favourites. That award goes to Fire Warrior.

I've been told Goto is a horrible author in terms of 40K though, because even though it's impossible to set down a consistent authority on what's what (since the 40K universe is a collaborative effort amongst many authors), Goto can't even get basic details right (like how bolters work fluff-wise).

The only 40K book I've ever read bar the codexes is the Eisenhorn omnibus by Dan Abnett, which I'm currently working through now. Loving it so far, although it seems like your cliched staunch-unmoving-figure-has-to-work-alongside-the-powers-he-once-sought-to-destroy story. Doesn't make it bad, of course.

Originally Posted by Scott

What about Gaunt's Ghosts? That's an awesome collection of 40k books.

I own the first one, I'm told they're damn good, but I just don't have enough of an interest in the IG to read a book about them.

Eldar & Space Marines are what I have, although I never really finished my Eldar army. The total lack of variety for certain unit types in the Eldar really ticked me off, although they seemed to have fixed that. (The new Farseers are cool...the new banshees are not.)

I absolutely despise the Eldar. I have no ideas about their rules and stuff, all I know is that A) they have guns that fire shurikens made of lightning or some crap, and that B) they are an entire race of Mary-Sues. "Ohh, look at us, we're so doomed and fragile and beautiful and elegant and dead! Ohhhh, what have we done, we have been destroyed by the very powers we once worshipped! Ohhh, we must atone for this terror that we have created! Ohhh, our souls get eaten by Slaanesh when we die! Ohhhhhhh~!" They are so perfect, yet they are also so tragic. I hate elves in any given setting because this is usually the case, but because tragedy in 40K is turned all the way up to eleven, the Eldar are eleven times worse.

Originally Posted by Scott

What about Gaunt's Ghosts? That's an awesome collection of 40k books.

They're fun as well, but the more recent books are starting to drag a bit. There's a limit to how long one series should be.

Have you ever tried reading the Caiaphas Cain books?

Originally Posted by Scott

I started playing 40k about when 3rd edition came out... so I've had this stuff for a while. Haven't played all that much in recent times, and I don't have a 5th edition rulebook. I did buy a new Eldar codex, just because my old one was way out of date, and I'm thinking about doing the 40k thing again.

Eldar & Space Marines are what I have, although I never really finished my Eldar army. The total lack of variety for certain unit types in the Eldar really ticked me off, although they seemed to have fixed that. (The new Farseers are cool...the new banshees are not.)

Okay, you started a couple of years before me. I can't say I've ever really thought much of the Eldar -they come across as arrogant pansies in the fluff, and rules-wise...no offence, but the Avatar is pathetic (from a Chaos player's point of view - I'm used to throwing Bloodthirsters around), and their standard armour save is 5+. Bolters at the ready, anyone?

Originally Posted by Lelouch

It allowed for better thematic armies that way. This way it's just a bunch jumble of Undivided units with a troop of Slaaneshi Noise Marines here, a few Plague Marines there, and just a really messy unlikely mix.

Not even that - the Marks of Slaanesh and Nurgle aren't really worth it, so you'd just get a jumble of Undivided, Tzeentch, and Khorne. Noise Marines are nice, but Thousand Sons are better, and the current incarnation of Plague Marines haven't really got many advantages.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

I collected Skaven, who were incredibly fascinating, so yeah.

I love the Skaven. Their craven cowardice and constant rationalisations for how retreating is okay this time are hilarious.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

Yeah, I was just saying that even without the weapon-changing option, 75 points for those extra Strength and Toughness points is good enough for me.

Ah, I get ya. Yeah, definitely agreed on that one. Pity GW apparently doesn't.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

A lot of piloting mishaps. Khorne makes you see red no matter where you look, Nurgle rots your eyes out, Tzeentch plans all these accidents in advance, and Slaanesh, well, the sort of things you'd be doing at high-speed don't leave much concentration-time on the road.

Hm, probably best not to dwell too much on what Slaanesh's devotees are up to. Maybe they crashed the land speeders into the Land Raider Crusader, which would explain why I can't use those either?

Originally Posted by Lelouch

Well, to begin with all Grey Knights are Fearless, unlike normal Space Marines who have like a lesser version of it I believe.

Actually, And They Shall Know No Fear is better than Fearless. Fearless units lose wounds if they fail a leadership test; Space Marines shrug their shoulders and get on with the job. It's a frickin' nightmare.

And to think that my brother used to complain because Chaos Marines get an extra point of leadership...like that ever helps.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

Grey Knights can use Storm Bolters with one hand (which all are equipped with), meaning they count as bolt pistols for the purposes of close combat, earning them an extra attack dice if they have a normal weapon.

Every Grey Knight has Aegis armour, which means that if an enemy psyker uses a power that targets a Grey Knight squad, the squad can roll a D6 and add that to the highest leadership in the squad. The psyker must then roll equal or higher, it's successful, otherwise it fails.

They also have an ability called "The Shrouding", which means that whenever shooting at a unit of Grey Knights, the enemy must roll a 3D6 to see what distance the Grey Knights can be shot at from (like night-fighting but as a standard rule for shooting at any Grey Knight unit).

Each Grey Knight carries a Nemesis Force Weapon, which adds +2 to their standard Strength of 4 in all situations, and are one-handed weapons. If the user is a Justicar or a Grey Knight Terminator, it counts as a power weapon, if it's a Grand Master it also counts as a Force Weapon. Standard Grey Knights have a save of 3+, termies have a save of 2+.

A squad of Grey Knight Terminators can also buy the psyker ability Holocaust, which places an ordnance template in contact with the Brother-Captain, and all under it take a strength 5 hit, while all partially under it take that hit on a roll of 4+.

And come to think of it, that's just as standard. Against Grey Knights, every daemon on the field has -1 leadership for the sake of instability tests, and Grey Knights have a whole bunch of weapons against which invulnerability saves can't be used (the only kind of save daemons have).

The downside is the price - A standard Grey Knight is 25 points, and a standard Grey Knight Terminator is 46 points.

...all that, just for 46 points? o.o You're being spoiled rotten there. I can't do that much for double the price.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

That's what it should be, yeah. The Inquisition requests that these given chapters send their best to serve for a certain period with the Ordo Xenos, but the rules as they are now (which haven't been updated with 4th ed) are basically a more expensive, crapper version of a normal Marine with extra weapon options and a nice shoulderpad.

Well, that kinda sucks. Maybe it's a reflection on what the Space Marines think of the Inquisition (ie, not much)?

Originally Posted by Lelouch

I've been told Goto is a horrible author in terms of 40K though, because even though it's impossible to set down a consistent authority on what's what (since the 40K universe is a collaborative effort amongst many authors), Goto can't even get basic details right (like how bolters work fluff-wise).

*snorts* Nobody can quite figure out how bolters work. You know they're meant to fire caseless ammunition? If you look at the artwork, you can usually see shells being ejected from the barrel as they fire.

As for the lack of a central authority to lay down the rules, that's not actually so bad. Most of the books are written with a specific point of view in mind, so if those people aren't aware of something, it's not gonna come up in the book. Or it shouldn't, anyway.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

The only 40K book I've ever read bar the codexes is the Eisenhorn omnibus by Dan Abnett, which I'm currently working through now. Loving it so far, although it seems like your cliched staunch-unmoving-figure-has-to-work-alongside-the-powers-he-once-sought-to-destroy story. Doesn't make it bad, of course.

I'd suggest reading the Ravenor trilogy as well if you like Eisenhorn. You'll obviously need to finish Eisenhorn first, of course, but still.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

I absolutely despise the Eldar. I have no ideas about their rules and stuff, all I know is that A) they have guns that fire shurikens made of lightning or some crap, and that B) they are an entire race of Mary-Sues. "Ohh, look at us, we're so doomed and fragile and beautiful and elegant and dead! Ohhhh, what have we done, we have been destroyed by the very powers we once worshipped! Ohhh, we must atone for this terror that we have created! Ohhh, our souls get eaten by Slaanesh when we die! Ohhhhhhh~!" They are so perfect, yet they are also so tragic. I hate elves in any given setting because this is usually the case, but because tragedy in 40K is turned all the way up to eleven, the Eldar are eleven times worse.

You forgot them being arrogant little so-and-so's that don't give a damn if the rest of the galaxy gets engulfed by Chaos, so long as they're alright. And they wonder why the Imperium doesn't like them very much...

Originally Posted by Tiroth

Okay, you started a couple of years before me. I can't say I've ever really thought much of the Eldar -they come across as arrogant pansies in the fluff, and rules-wise...no offence, but the Avatar is pathetic (from a Chaos player's point of view - I'm used to throwing Bloodthirsters around), and their standard armour save is 5+. Bolters at the ready, anyone?

The Avatar of Khaine also counts as a daemon for the purposes of Daemonhunters.

Not even that - the Marks of Slaanesh and Nurgle aren't really worth it, so you'd just get a jumble of Undivided, Tzeentch, and Khorne. Noise Marines are nice, but Thousand Sons are better, and the current incarnation of Plague Marines haven't really got many advantages.

I'd use Noise Marines only because I'm a Slaaneshi cultist disguised as a puritanical Inquisitor. But don't tell the Emperor.

I love the Skaven. Their craven cowardice and constant rationalisations for how retreating is okay this time are hilarious.

I just love how they mutate things, create diseases and poison, and build machinery and weapons entirely from warpstone, although that's lovely too. Like in the Felix and Gotrek "-slayer" books, Grey Seer Thanquol is a recurring character, and he basically gives the skaven most of their exposition to Warhammer fans. Although if you're familiar with the Witch Hunter books by C.S. Werner, they start off focused on the vampire counts, then move on to chaos, and finally onto the skaven.

Hm, probably best not to dwell too much on what Slaanesh's devotees are up to. Maybe they crashed the land speeders into the Land Raider Crusader, which would explain why I can't use those either?

It'd probably take like ten Land Speeders to take down a Land Raider Crusader. But considering how terrible they are as drivers, that would have taken all of about five minutes.

Actually, And They Shall Know No Fear is better than Fearless. Fearless units lose wounds if they fail a leadership test; Space Marines shrug their shoulders and get on with the job. It's a frickin' nightmare.

And to think that my brother used to complain because Chaos Marines get an extra point of leadership...like that ever helps.

The Grey Knights with Fearless are assumed to pass all Morale checks, even if failure is normally automatic, and they cannot be pinned. I seem to remember this being better than And They Shall Know No Fear for whatever reason.

At least he's not using Guardsmen Conscripts. Leadership 5. =/

...all that, just for 46 points? o.o You're being spoiled rotten there. I can't do that much for double the price.

And upon the realisation of this truth, I'm suddenly worried that they're going to practically castrate my beautiful Grey Knights instead of just making them cost more.

Well, that kinda sucks. Maybe it's a reflection on what the Space Marines think of the Inquisition (ie, not much)?

"So, they want the best of the best eh? Hey Timmy, get over here, we've got a job for ya... *snicker*"

That's why I find the Deathwatch pretty weird altogether to be honest. Even though an Inquisitor can supposedly requisition Space Marine troops, since most Space Marines see themselves as serving the Emperor rather than the Imperium itself, I'd imagine that most of them would tell the Inquisitors to shove their authority where the sun don't shine. Even the Grey Knights, who are basically the Men in Black of the Warhammer universe, only collaborate with the Inquisition because they have a common goal (to stamp out the most volatile infestations of Chaos), not because that's their job. I'd imagine there are plenty of chapters, such as the Ultramarines, that stick to the Codex Astartes so staunchly that they would follow the authority of the Imperium.

*snorts* Nobody can quite figure out how bolters work. You know they're meant to fire caseless ammunition? If you look at the artwork, you can usually see shells being ejected from the barrel as they fire.

As for the lack of a central authority to lay down the rules, that's not actually so bad. Most of the books are written with a specific point of view in mind, so if those people aren't aware of something, it's not gonna come up in the book. Or it shouldn't, anyway.

That's the sort of thing I was figuring yeah. In images it's there because it looks cool, but Goto actually writes about it I believe. But most do write from a specific army's standpoint, or a few - details about the other side are usually scarce unless they're plot-relevant.

I'd suggest reading the Ravenor trilogy as well if you like Eisenhorn. You'll obviously need to finish Eisenhorn first, of course, but still.

Yeah I was reading about how Ravenor is a spin-off or something, by the same author too. I like Dan Abnett's style.

There was a really old trilogy of books called The Inquisition War I had my eye on, but unfortunately they're impossible to get a hold of these days.

You forgot them being arrogant little so-and-so's that don't give a damn if the rest of the galaxy gets engulfed by Chaos, so long as they're alright. And they wonder why the Imperium doesn't like them very much...

Well precisely. There's a reason that Eldar for Human is "Mon'keigh". It's like the Eldar are aware of their status as elves, are fully aware of the fact that elves are the most perfect race in any given fiction that they might show their pointy faces, and act on it - "we're better than you so get out of the way and let us do our thing."

Originally Posted by Lelouch

The Avatar of Khaine also counts as a daemon for the purposes of Daemonhunters.

I heard about that. Poor little pointy-eared fools. Although what I really want to do is set a Bloodthirster on the thing and see how high-and-mighty the Eldar think they afterwards. ^_^

Originally Posted by Lelouch

I'd use Noise Marines only because I'm a Slaaneshi cultist disguised as a puritanical Inquisitor. But don't tell the Emperor.

Or your fellow inquisitors, lest they set the might of Exterminatus on whatever planet you're hiding on. Or Space marines, for pretty much the same reason.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

I just love how they mutate things, create diseases and poison, and build machinery and weapons entirely from warpstone, although that's lovely too. Like in the Felix and Gotrek "-slayer" books, Grey Seer Thanquol is a recurring character, and he basically gives the skaven most of their exposition to Warhammer fans. Although if you're familiar with the Witch Hunter books by C.S. Werner, they start off focused on the vampire counts, then move on to chaos, and finally onto the skaven.

I've read the Gotrek and Felix books, and I have to say that Grey Seer Thanquol has to be my favourite character from them. He seems to go through a new bodyguard every time he runs across that dwarf and his human friend, doesn't he?

Originally Posted by Lelouch

It'd probably take like ten Land Speeders to take down a Land Raider Crusader. But considering how terrible they are as drivers, that would have taken all of about five minutes.

That's true. How maby would it take to total a Whirlwind? One?

Originally Posted by Lelouch

The Grey Knights with Fearless are assumed to pass all Morale checks, even if failure is normally automatic, and they cannot be pinned. I seem to remember this being better than And They Shall Know No Fear for whatever reason.

Basically, Space Marines can be pinned, but they rally automatically if they run away, and they never run from close combat. Which really ticks me off, because I have to kill every last one of them to win, and it takes forever unless everyone has a power weapon.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

At least he's not using Guardsmen Conscripts. Leadership 5. =/

*shudders* I didn't realise anything had a leadership value that low. Talk about rock-bottom.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

And upon the realisation of this truth, I'm suddenly worried that they're going to practically castrate my beautiful Grey Knights instead of just making them cost more.

If they do, you probably won't be alone. :/ About the only army that's guaranteed to avoid being mauled is Space Marines.

Sometimes, I really hate favouritism.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

"So, they want the best of the best eh? Hey Timmy, get over here, we've got a job for ya... *snicker*"

That's why I find the Deathwatch pretty weird altogether to be honest. Even though an Inquisitor can supposedly requisition Space Marine troops, since most Space Marines see themselves as serving the Emperor rather than the Imperium itself, I'd imagine that most of them would tell the Inquisitors to shove their authority where the sun don't shine. Even the Grey Knights, who are basically the Men in Black of the Warhammer universe, only collaborate with the Inquisition because they have a common goal (to stamp out the most volatile infestations of Chaos), not because that's their job. I'd imagine there are plenty of chapters, such as the Ultramarines, that stick to the Codex Astartes so staunchly that they would follow the authority of the Imperium.

Oh, a lot of the chapters would, but then you get the groups like Dark Angels and Space Wolves that would sooner shoot the idiot inquisitor than follow his/her orders. Which is probably why inquisitors travel everywhere with a big retinue and lots of wargear - so the Space Marines will think twice before shoving him out an airlock.

Except Dark Angels. Nothing would keep an inquisitor safe from them.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

Yeah I was reading about how Ravenor is a spin-off or something, by the same author too. I like Dan Abnett's style.

There was a really old trilogy of books called The Inquisition War I had my eye on, but unfortunately they're impossible to get a hold of these days.

The Inquisition War was reprinted a few years ago, so you should be able to find it somewhere. I didn't really like it myself - the writing style didn't sit well with me. It didn't help that it was written some time ago, so a lot of the ideas and background in it is outdated.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

Well precisely. There's a reason that Eldar for Human is "Mon'keigh". It's like the Eldar are aware of their status as elves, are fully aware of the fact that elves are the most perfect race in any given fiction that they might show their pointy faces, and act on it - "we're better than you so get out of the way and let us do our thing."

The Eldar are convinced that they are the greatest thing that has happened to the galaxy since the Old Ones, despite the fact that Slaanesh's existence is entirely their fault. They are also responsible for the Eye of Terror, the Dark Eldar, and we can probably blame them for the Heresy as well.

In other words, the galaxy would be better off if they never existed.

Originally Posted by Tiroth

I heard about that. Poor little pointy-eared fools. Although what I really want to do is set a Bloodthirster on the thing and see how high-and-mighty the Eldar think they afterwards. ^_^

Not very.

Or your fellow inquisitors, lest they set the might of Exterminatus on whatever planet you're hiding on. Or Space marines, for pretty much the same reason.

They may declare me extremis diabolus >_>

I've read the Gotrek and Felix books, and I have to say that Grey Seer Thanquol has to be my favourite character from them. He seems to go through a new bodyguard every time he runs across that dwarf and his human friend, doesn't he?

Good ol' Boneripper. He's gone through so many Rat Ogres he's had mechanical ones built for him instead. And those don't last very long either.

That's true. How maby would it take to total a Whirlwind? One?

If that, Whirlwinds are pathetic defensively.

Basically, Space Marines can be pinned, but they rally automatically if they run away, and they never run from close combat. Which really ticks me off, because I have to kill every last one of them to win, and it takes forever unless everyone has a power weapon.

So yeah, the Fearless on Grey Knights is a bit better than that then. Add to that Nemesis Force Halberds and Storm Bolters and close combat with a Grey Knight is a bad idea.

*shudders* I didn't realise anything had a leadership value that low. Talk about rock-bottom.

You should see the Skaven Clanrat Slaves in Fantasy. Leadership 2. Waste of models that would be better used as normal Clanrats.

If they do, you probably won't be alone. :/ About the only army that's guaranteed to avoid being mauled is Space Marines.

Sometimes, I really hate favouritism.

Canonically the Space Marines are practically 10 all the way through, so we're lucky =/

Oh, a lot of the chapters would, but then you get the groups like Dark Angels and Space Wolves that would sooner shoot the idiot inquisitor than follow his/her orders. Which is probably why inquisitors travel everywhere with a big retinue and lots of wargear - so the Space Marines will think twice before shoving him out an airlock.

Except Dark Angels. Nothing would keep an inquisitor safe from them.

If the Dark Angels had any need for him. I remember reading a nice little story about how the Black Templars had found one of their Fallen, and then the Dark Angels turned their ship's guns to the Black Templar's, and demanded that they hand him over or be shot down. The Black Templars complied, and got shot down anyway. The Dark Angels are a borderline traitor legion because they show next to no regard for the Imperium or its brother chapters, only the Fallen and the Emperor.

The Inquisition War was reprinted a few years ago, so you should be able to find it somewhere. I didn't really like it myself - the writing style didn't sit well with me. It didn't help that it was written some time ago, so a lot of the ideas and background in it is outdated.

Ah, yeah. There's some pictures from it in the Daemonhunters codex but apart from that it probably would be out of date by now.

The Eldar are convinced that they are the greatest thing that has happened to the galaxy since the Old Ones, despite the fact that Slaanesh's existence is entirely their fault. They are also responsible for the Eye of Terror, the Dark Eldar, and we can probably blame them for the Heresy as well.

In other words, the galaxy would be better off if they never existed.

I don't know when the Eye of Terror happened, if that was around 30,000 and even remotely related to Horus, then yeah it probably is their fault.

They are the sole reason I never play random in Dawn of War - just in case I end up as them.

The thing about Warhammer, and 40k especially, is that it quietly mocks everything in the realm of scifi/fantasy works.

The Eldar are no exception. They, along with the Orks, are actually much larger in the mockery than others. Satire makes me happy.


As far as their stuff...yeah, the Avatar sucks. Fact of life. Although, looking through the new codex, the Eldar's "awesome" levels have gone way up. The avatar isn't as terrible anymore (they gave him a better save than 5+ invulnerable), seer councils are available for every eldar army (although the craftworld rules in general are gone, so no more army of just aspect warriors for me), and some other things.

As for "Mary Sues," Aldarchs. Those bastards right there. Giving a unit a BS of 6 is just unnecessary. (Since 5 gives you the best roll possible.)

It does make me unhappy that Farseers don't have strength & toughness of 4 anymore.



And yes, all the bad **** in the world of 40k are the Eldar's fault. Although, the fact that the Eldar and not the Dark Eldar are the splinter group in that race makes me smile.

They made the Eye of Terror. Well, okay, all the Eldar that survived were the ones going "oh ****, man," and running the hell away from the ones who made it, but still.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

Good ol' Boneripper. He's gone through so many Rat Ogres he's had mechanical ones built for him instead. And those don't last very long either.

Why am I not surprised? A Bloodthirster didn't survive against those two; why would an overgrown rat? Or even a mechanical overgrown rat.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

If that, Whirlwinds are pathetic defensively.

Offensively, as well. That's got to be the worst large blast weapon I know of.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

So yeah, the Fearless on Grey Knights is a bit better than that then. Add to that Nemesis Force Halberds and Storm Bolters and close combat with a Grey Knight is a bad idea.

Under current rules for Fearless models, they don't automatically pass leadership tests; they just lose a wound for every point they fail it by instead of running away. Hence why I think And They Shall Know No Fear is better.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

You should see the Skaven Clanrat Slaves in Fantasy. Leadership 2. Waste of models that would be better used as normal Clanrats.

...okay, that's just scary. I didn't think even the Skaven could be that cowardly.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

Canonically the Space Marines are practically 10 all the way through, so we're lucky =/

Canonically, Chaos Space Marines are meant to equal and exceed the Space Marines in nearly every way, due to having ten times their experience. For some reason, though, it never seems to work out that way.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

If the Dark Angels had any need for him. I remember reading a nice little story about how the Black Templars had found one of their Fallen, and then the Dark Angels turned their ship's guns to the Black Templar's, and demanded that they hand him over or be shot down. The Black Templars complied, and got shot down anyway. The Dark Angels are a borderline traitor legion because they show next to no regard for the Imperium or its brother chapters, only the Fallen and the Emperor.

I think I've read that one. Isn't there something in the Black Templars Codex referring to repeated attempts to demand what happened in that incident? It's a fairly good example of the Dark Angels all over, I'd say.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

I don't know when the Eye of Terror happened, if that was around 30,000 and even remotely related to Horus, then yeah it probably is their fault.

The Eye of Terror was formed by Slaanesh's birth cries in the instant s/he awoke as a conscious entity. It also used to be the center of the Eldar empire, right up until it became a permanent warp storm.

Incidentally, that's also the event that swept the warp storms away from Terra and started the Great Crusade.

Originally Posted by Lelouch

They are the sole reason I never play random in Dawn of War - just in case I end up as them.

Eesh, that would be a nightmare. I'd just pick Chaos Marines and be done with it.

EDIT: And Scotty posted.

Originally Posted by Scott

The thing about Warhammer, and 40k especially, is that it quietly mocks everything in the realm of scifi/fantasy works.

The Eldar are no exception. They, along with the Orks, are actually much larger in the mockery than others. Satire makes me happy.

Personally, I usually manage to miss the mockery aspects. Probably because I don't pay much attention to Orks or Eldar.

Originally Posted by Scott

As far as their stuff...yeah, the Avatar sucks. Fact of life. Although, looking through the new codex, the Eldar's "awesome" levels have gone way up. The avatar isn't as terrible anymore (they gave him a better save than 5+ invulnerable), seer councils are available for every eldar army (although the craftworld rules in general are gone, so no more army of just aspect warriors for me), and some other things.

Somehow, I don't think the Avatar is ever going to match up to a Bloodthirster, no matter how good his save is (unless GW breaks all their own rules and gives it a 2+ invulnerable save). Nobody but Space Marines seem to be getting useable variant armies these days, though.

Originally Posted by Scott

As for "Mary Sues," Aldarchs. Those bastards right there. Giving a unit a BS of 6 is just unnecessary. (Since 5 gives you the best roll possible.)

Cypher used to have BS6, but they gave him a nice special rule to go with it. I haven't seen a currently-legal version of him yet, though.

Originally Posted by Scott

It does make me unhappy that Farseers don't have strength & toughness of 4 anymore.

Yeah, another bad thing about Eldar - strength 6 weapons will instant-kill them. Kinda sucks, doesn't it?

Originally Posted by Scott

And yes, all the bad **** in the world of 40k are the Eldar's fault. Although, the fact that the Eldar and not the Dark Eldar are the splinter group in that race makes me smile.

...I never actually thought about that. Weird.

EDIT 2: Actually, the Eldar aren't to blame for the Tyrannids, and I think the Orks were someone else's fault as well. They're just the root cause for everything else that's wrong with the galaxy.

Originally Posted by Scott

They made the Eye of Terror. Well, okay, all the Eldar that survived were the ones going "oh ****, man," and running the hell away from the ones who made it, but still.

Ah, but they still contributed to the whole mess.

Originally Posted by Tiroth

Why am I not surprised? A Bloodthirster didn't survive against those two; why would an overgrown rat? Or even a mechanical overgrown rat.

Warpstone is powerful stuff. >.>

Offensively, as well. That's got to be the worst large blast weapon I know of.

I make very little use of it in Dawn of War, so it's probably crap in the tabletop too.

Under current rules for Fearless models, they don't automatically pass leadership tests; they just lose a wound for every point they fail it by instead of running away. Hence why I think And They Shall Know No Fear is better.

This must be a different kind of "Fearless". The effect as described in the Daemonhunters book is different to that.

...okay, that's just scary. I didn't think even the Skaven could be that cowardly.

When you're a skaven, you're a coward. When you're a skaven slave, you're even worse off.

Canonically, Chaos Space Marines are meant to equal and exceed the Space Marines in nearly every way, due to having ten times their experience. For some reason, though, it never seems to work out that way.

They should be yeah, but the good guys always win. The thing is, in Warhammer, we don't know who that is, so it defaults to Space Marines.

I think I've read that one. Isn't there something in the Black Templars Codex referring to repeated attempts to demand what happened in that incident? It's a fairly good example of the Dark Angels all over, I'd say.

Yeah, that's why I love the Dark Angels. I'm fond of the Black Templars too though, going on their crusades and completely ignoring the Codex Astartes. They wear black, just like the chaplains, to show their devotion - they work for the Emperor and the Emperor alone.

The Eye of Terror was formed by Slaanesh's birth cries in the instant s/he awoke as a conscious entity. It also used to be the center of the Eldar empire, right up until it became a permanent warp storm.

Incidentally, that's also the event that swept the warp storms away from Terra and started the Great Crusade.

So it did set off the events in motion but it wasn't so much directly responsible. Indirectly though they were. Any excuse to blame the ****ing Eldar

Originally Posted by Scott

The thing about Warhammer, and 40k especially, is that it quietly mocks everything in the realm of scifi/fantasy works.

The Eldar are no exception. They, along with the Orks, are actually much larger in the mockery than others. Satire makes me happy.

I'm all too aware of the satirical nature of much of the Warhammer universe, since you can usually read a passage that at first seems innocent, but if you've read another story, or know where a certain quote's originally from, you'll see exactly what they're taking the piss out of. Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov is a reference to The Grand Inquisitor from Crime and Punishment (apparently, I've never read it), I once read a quote which was basically the Party's slogan from 1984, they use a lot of quotes from old Spanish Inquisitors and various other religious figures ("Small minds are easily filled with faith" was from Tomas de Torquemada, whose name was also borrowed for an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor), and so on and so forth.

The Orks, however, are marvellous. They are the butt of the joke that is Warhammer. Everyone else is has a tragic history, a dystopian regime, various other grim and dark motivations, and the Orks are doing it all for fun. They fight amongst themselves, and they use their own teeth as currency, meaning they have to. They terrorize the Imperium, ruin the schemes of Chaos, further punish the Eldar, in complete ignorance and apathy for their various plights, all because that's the way they like it. No matter how intricate your schemes, no matter how much conviction you have to reach your goal, you will never be able to account for the Orkz. They're like the living embodiment of Murphy's Law, that scruffy, rowdy, drunken cousin who turns up on your doorstep just as you have an elaborate dinner party for your boss and neighbours planned in detail to the second. There's a quote from an Eldar Farseer or something that describes the Ork society as a true Eutopia, because they have achieved the happiness that the Eldar could not.

As far as their stuff...yeah, the Avatar sucks. Fact of life. Although, looking through the new codex, the Eldar's "awesome" levels have gone way up. The avatar isn't as terrible anymore (they gave him a better save than 5+ invulnerable), seer councils are available for every eldar army (although the craftworld rules in general are gone, so no more army of just aspect warriors for me), and some other things.

The most interesting thing about the Eldar as far as I'm concerned is the Avatar. But I'll need to look into the Dark Eldar, since they're basically the Dark Elves. And I actually like the Dark Elves.

As for "Mary Sues," Aldarchs. Those bastards right there. Giving a unit a BS of 6 is just unnecessary. (Since 5 gives you the best roll possible.)

It does make me unhappy that Farseers don't have strength & toughness of 4 anymore.

Yeah, a BS of six is just unnecessary, although I'm sure rolling a one still causes you to misfire

And yes, all the bad **** in the world of 40k are the Eldar's fault. Although, the fact that the Eldar and not the Dark Eldar are the splinter group in that race makes me smile.

They made the Eye of Terror. Well, okay, all the Eldar that survived were the ones going "oh ****, man," and running the hell away from the ones who made it, but still.

Their fault for having all those psychic orgies in the deeper reaches of space. Bastards.

Yup thanks to the eldar killing echother slaanish was born and the eye of teroer was opend