Sexism in America

[Aralith]

In Japan, the kanji symbol for woman can be used to mean all sorts of things. In fact, it is used in over 200 kanji. There are three particular kanji that use the symbol for woman that struck as particularly... let's say unique for now. They are the Japanese symbols for tranquility or restfulness, chaos or trouble, and wickedness. Let's look at each of these individually shall we? The first one, tranquility, is the symbol for woman, with a roof over her head. So, we can say that in Japan, tranquility is "One Woman Under the Roof."

That's not so strange, as woman are supposed to be elegant and beautiful in Japan. The next two definitely broke this idea though. The symbol for chaos is a roof, with two symbols for woman under it, so we can say that chaos in Japan is "Two Women Under the Roof." This would seem to be a rather sexist viewpoint, but it is a rather well known point of Japanese culture that they are still rather sexist. It is still hard for women to get jobs over there, though that does seem to be on the change in recent times. Regardless, this symbol is still the common symbol for chaos, so they still have some things to work out. Finally, the symbol for wickedness is just three woman symbols (no roof this time).

The place I first learned of the tranquility, chaos, and wickedness symbols was first year Japanese in high school. Funnily enough, my teacher was female, and she found these symbols hilarious. Now, I think its perfectly fine to laugh at such a thing, even for a male. I am male and I had no problem at laughing at such a thing. Unfortunately, while I laughed, something else popped into my head. A terrible thought about how these two symbols held some truth to them. Though I did not believe this to be true, the thought remained, and it got me to thinking: "why would these thoughts I don't even believe in be one of the first things to arise after hearing such a thing?"

So, of course, the first reason I pondered as to why these thoughts were in my head was something to do with my culture. Being an American, I am not entirely proud of all aspects of my culture, and in fact at the time I wouldn't have been surprised if it was my culture that was planting such thoughts. I soon confirmed my suspicions. I started by asking my closest friends (the ones not already taking the class with me anyways) about this, and most of them thought it funny, but admitted that at least thoughts that the symbols held an element of truth to them bubbled up in their minds. Some of them even believed that it did have an aspect of truth. Well, only my male friends actually felt that it held some truth.

My next course of action was to ask my male friends that I knew already had some sexist tendencies, and they almost unanimously agreed that there was some truth to it, while some just came out and said, "That is so true!" I wasn't entirely shocked by their responses, as I already knew they were somewhat sexist. Finally, I asked all of my female friends what they thought about it. Most of them found it funny, but said that whatever the Japanese might believe, in America it wasn't that much of a problem. Of course, coming from a small town, these views might be a little skewed, but at least some of them have to represent the general view of the American populace.

So, from this, it can be extrapolated that there are still some in the United States that feel this way (though I suspect that there are quite a bit more but are under the control of political correctness). And yet, our society, as a whole, seems to embrace the ideas of moderate feminism (most of the extreme femi-nazists are still looked poorly upon) and feel that sexism is a bad thing. It is just rather strange that we go to all these ends to hide the fact that we are a sexist nation with political correctness and whatnot, but probably a large percentage of the nation is still sexist, including some of the women.

And yet, when contrasted to a society like Japan that puts up no facade, and says, "Yes we are sexist. We have been for a very long time, and it probably won't change for a while," an interesting question is posed. Is it because Japan is so open about their sexism that it halts the changing of it, or because of the fact that it probably won't change that they adopt this view?

Of course, when we bring the scenario to America, the question changes. Is it our superficial want for change that is ultimately holding it back, or will pretending we believe something we don't eventually make us believe it, bringing on change?

Of course, when I say we, I am not insinuating that me or any other one person feels this way, but rather I am applying these terms to the society as a whole. So, I guess the real question I pose is, can either of my above questions be answered, and if so, which viewpoint is more likely to bring about change? Furthermore, do the cultural differences between Japan and America make this change more necessary in one country than another?

[GentleArtillery]

Originally Posted by Aralith

In Japan, the kanji symbol for woman can be used to mean all sorts of things. In fact, it is used in over 200 kanji. There are three particular kanji that use the symbol for woman that struck as particularly... let's say unique for now. They are the Japanese symbols for tranquility or restfulness, chaos or trouble, and wickedness. Let's look at each of these individually shall we? The first one, tranquility, is the symbol for woman, with a roof over her head. So, we can say that in Japan, tranquility is "One Woman Under the Roof."

That's not so strange, as woman are supposed to be elegant and beautiful in Japan. The next two definitely broke this idea though. The symbol for chaos is a roof, with two symbols for woman under it, so we can say that chaos in Japan is "Two Women Under the Roof." This would seem to be a rather sexist viewpoint, but it is a rather well known point of Japanese culture that they are still rather sexist. It is still hard for women to get jobs over there, though that does seem to be on the change in recent times. Regardless, this symbol is still the common symbol for chaos, so they still have some things to work out. Finally, the symbol for wickedness is just three woman symbols (no roof this time).

The place I first learned of the tranquility, chaos, and wickedness symbols was first year Japanese in high school. Funnily enough, my teacher was female, and she found these symbols hilarious. Now, I think its perfectly fine to laugh at such a thing, even for a male. I am male and I had no problem at laughing at such a thing. Unfortunately, while I laughed, something else popped into my head. A terrible thought about how these two symbols held some truth to them. Though I did not believe this to be true, the thought remained, and it got me to thinking: "why would these thoughts I don't even believe in be one of the first things to arise after hearing such a thing?"

So, of course, the first reason I pondered as to why these thoughts were in my head was something to do with my culture. Being an American, I am not entirely proud of all aspects of my culture, and in fact at the time I wouldn't have been surprised if it was my culture that was planting such thoughts. I soon confirmed my suspicions. I started by asking my closest friends (the ones not already taking the class with me anyways) about this, and most of them thought it funny, but admitted that at least thoughts that the symbols held an element of truth to them bubbled up in their minds. Some of them even believed that it did have an aspect of truth. Well, only my male friends actually felt that it held some truth.

My next course of action was to ask my male friends that I knew already had some sexist tendencies, and they almost unanimously agreed that there was some truth to it, while some just came out and said, "That is so true!" I wasn't entirely shocked by their responses, as I already knew they were somewhat sexist. Finally, I asked all of my female friends what they thought about it. Most of them found it funny, but said that whatever the Japanese might believe, in America it wasn't that much of a problem. Of course, coming from a small town, these views might be a little skewed, but at least some of them have to represent the general view of the American populace.

I wouldn't call this sexist.
Yes, I believe these symbols have some truth to them. But, it would be the same thing if the symbols were "male". If chaos and wickedness was afflicted to men, I'd still consider it to have some truth to them.

Let's take other meanings. If the symbol of women was a part of the symbol for, for example, generosity and wisdom, would you not consider them (partly, possibly) true?

Whatever, my point is that you can give (almost) any attribute to men or women, and consider them true, without it being sexist.

So, from this, it can be extrapolated that there are still some in the United States that feel this way (though I suspect that there are quite a bit more but are under the control of political correctness). And yet, our society, as a whole, seems to embrace the ideas of moderate feminism (most of the extreme femi-nazists are still looked poorly upon) and feel that sexism is a bad thing. It is just rather strange that we go to all these ends to hide the fact that we are a sexist nation with political correctness and whatnot, but probably a large percentage of the nation is still sexist, including some of the women.

That really depends on how you define sexist. Is it sexist to think, for example, that women generally care more about their appearance than men do?

Of course, when we bring the scenario to America, the question changes. Is it our superficial want for change that is ultimately holding it back, or will pretending we believe something we don't eventually make us believe it, bringing on change?

Well, do people still believe that women should stay in the house?

Of course, women generally are lower paid than men, which is bad. I could call this sexist, but thinking that the attributes "chaos" and "wickedness" "is so true!" for women isn't, really. It's partly jokingly, because I really don't think that the general public does believe that women are wicked.

Of course, when I say we, I am not insinuating that me or any other one person feels this way, but rather I am applying these terms to the society as a whole. So, I guess the real question I pose is, can either of my above questions be answered, and if so, which viewpoint is more likely to bring about change? Furthermore, do the cultural differences between Japan and America make this change more necessary in one country than another?

I think that accepting that people do "discriminate" a little, while not discriminating when it comes to things like school, work, taking care of the children, etc, is the best way to remove the sexism that really is detrimental.

And, if what you said about women not getting jobs easily in Japan is true, than Japan definitely needs changes more than the US.

[skate_mate]

Just to clarify regarding the kanji: Kanji, that is, the complicated looking characters that you are learning in Japanese class, originally were more or less imported from China. So if you're analysing the original meanings you'd need to ascribe them to Chinese culture, not Japanese. No that they were significantly different in the way they treated women though.

Also, here is some more interesting information:

夫婦 fuufu is the word for 'married couple.' It is comprised of two kanji. The first is 夫 otto, which means husband. Otto has this kanji 大 as its element. It is a person with his arms and legs outstretched. Can you see the picture? The line above his arms is meant to represent a crown. So, the kanji or symbolic character for husband in Japanese is a guy with his crown on his head. Lets compare this to the other half of the word for 'married couple.' It is 妻 tsuma. The bottom half of this kanji is 女 onna which means women. Above her in the picture is a modified version of 手 te which means hand. It is modified because in her hand she is holding a broom. So, the kanji which symbolises wife is a picture of a women holding a broom. A 'king' and a 'women with a broom'? Great equality. ^_~

[Aralith]

Originally Posted by GentleArtillery

I wouldn't call this sexist.
Yes, I believe these symbols have some truth to them. But, it would be the same thing if the symbols were "male". If chaos and wickedness was afflicted to men, I'd still consider it to have some truth to them.

This would be true if they also had symbols for men that meant good and bad things, but for the most part, they don't. Also, don't forget about the Asian Yin and Yang. These two things are supposed to be the opposite of each other. Yin stands for night, darkness, evil, cold, and woman (among many others). Yang stands for day, light, good, heat, and men. Although the Yin and Yang are obviously supposed to be opposites, and someone has to go on the evil side, when combined with a society that already has sexist symbols in their language....

That really depends on how you define sexist. Is it sexist to think, for example, that women generally care more about their appearance than men do?

In a sense, yes I do. In fact, I think it is very underplayed in American society how much men care about their appearance. Men generally have short hair (as long hair is usually more attributed to woman), are supposed to be (as the society says) the "men of the house" so their is definitely a feeling that they need to be strong. And in my experience, those same strong men (though, as said before, my pool on which to base experience is small, as I come from a small town and go to a relatively small college now) often feel the need to boast it. I probably see just as many men with combs in their pockets as I do women with hair brushes in their purses. The fact that men are considered homosexual if they wear anything pink or "unmanly" (whatever that means), so yes, I think it is somewhat sexist to say that woman generally care more about their appearance, as the men caring about it is most definitely downplayed, at least in America it is.

Well, do people still believe that women should stay in the house?

Do you mean in America or in Japan? I'll just answer both. In Japan that is definitely a core belief of the older generation, but the newer, younger generation is trying to bring about a lot of change. Japan almost has two cultures these days. A young and an old, and it's pretty much a culture war right now.

Of course, women generally are lower paid than men, which is bad. I could call this sexist, but thinking that the attributes "chaos" and "wickedness" "is so true!" for women isn't, really. It's partly jokingly, because I really don't think that the general public does believe that women are wicked.

Well, it wasn't so much the wickedness one that people thought was true, but many people felt that the tranquility and chaos one was quite applicable. Ever heard of a "cat fight?" It's a terrible term and I hate using it, but I think that it has an applicable use here, as it shows that some people really do believe that two men can get along better than two women.

I think that accepting that people do "discriminate" a little, while not discriminating when it comes to things like school, work, taking care of the children, etc, is the best way to remove the sexism that really is detrimental.

The point of my question though is not if removing sexism does the job. Obviously that would. The point is, does pretending to remove sexism (acting like you're not sexist when you are just because political correctness tells you to) actually remove it? Will those sexist people really not let those feelings get in the way when, say, they're hiring someone for a job position, or how they treat their spouse? I'm not trying to say that it won't, because sometimes you can trick your mind into believing something that it doesn't, I'm simply asking if people here feel that it is the right way to go about it, or if it would be better to admit that we have a problem with it and try to figure it out from there.

And, if what you said about women not getting jobs easily in Japan is true, than Japan definitely needs changes more than the US.

Again, you miss the point. I know that it's not easy, but try to remove yourself from your culture, place yourself in Japanese culture, and see if it really is still a good thing. Cultural relativism is not easy, but it is the best way to approach a subject like this, as the main point of this thread is to have not a debate of politics or religion (as are in SO many other threads in I:SB), but a cultural debate.

Originally Posted by skate_mate

Just to clarify regarding the kanji: Kanji, that is, the complicated looking characters that you are learning in Japanese class, originally were more or less imported from China. So if you're analysing the original meanings you'd need to ascribe them to Chinese culture, not Japanese. No that they were significantly different in the way they treated women though.

Yes they borrowed them from China, but as you said, they way they treated women in the first place wasn't that different. Also, a culture is, in quite a lot of senses, defined by its language, so regardless of where they got them from originally, those symbols are still going to have an impact on how they view women.

夫婦 fuufu is the word for 'married couple.' It is comprised of two kanji. The first is 夫 otto, which means husband. Otto has this kanji 大 as its element. It is a person with his arms and legs outstretched. Can you see the picture? The line above his arms is meant to represent a crown. So, the kanji or symbolic character for husband in Japanese is a guy with his crown on his head. Lets compare this to the other half of the word for 'married couple.' It is 妻 tsuma. The bottom half of this kanji is 女 onna which means women. Above her in the picture is a modified version of 手 te which means hand. It is modified because in her hand she is holding a broom. So, the kanji which symbolises wife is a picture of a women holding a broom. A 'king' and a 'women with a broom'? Great equality. ^_~

Ah yes, just furthering my point that most of the, for lack of a better word, "bad" end of the sexist symbols in Japan are aimed at women, whereas the "good" end is aimed at men.

[Sage of Earth]

While possibly not really related, I remember reading that if a girl is raped in Japan, a social stigma is attached to her as if it were her fault that she got raped in the first place. Which rather shows a particularly sexist way of thinking even when a woman is the victim of something.

[Eijiro]

Culture in Japan is a lot more varied than it may seem from reading text books or wikipedia articles about it; like Aralith mentioned, there are almost two cultures with hugely different ideals at the moment in Japan, but I think it certainly extends beyond just the younger generation vs. the older generation (Although this is a very big aspect of it).

I lived in Japan as an exchange student for 12 months, and over the course of that time I lived with three very different families. The first family I lived with was most traditional in the sense that the wife was a house wife. She never worked, she stayed home all day long and did house work and prepared huge dinners. Mind you, this was a very odd system considering that in other aspects of life the family was very different from traditional Japanese households. My second family was the complete opposite and both the father and mother worked very late hours of the night and we'd often end up getting take-away meals because of this. That said, the house-wife image was still there, because as soon as dinner was finished, the father and brother would sit down and watch TV, while the mother and sister would clean up dishes and put them away.

The last family was the most equal, I'd say. Which was weird, because the parents in that family were the oldest ones (The first family had a very young mother and a father who was about 20 years her senior). They both worked from home, and shared an equal role in their business; the father helped with cooking and washing and whatnot, as well as all the children.

Japan is currently facing a quickly aging population, a huge problem for society there, although people don't look at it with as much seriousness as they probably should. Part of the reason for this is that women are wanting to continue their careers and oftentimes sacrifice making a family for this career. In the past, as soon as a woman got pregnant, she would step down from her job and live the life of a housewife. It was literally career suicide.

Working times in Japan are a lot different to the Western world. They take it all very seriously, and it isn't out of the ordinary for career women and men to be returning home at the late hours of the night, from anywhere between 10pm-1am in the morning. Because of this commitment to work ethic, it is often the case that women have to choose between raising a family, and continuing their career. Things are rapidly changing, whether it be for better or worse.

While possibly not really related, I remember reading that if a girl is raped in Japan, a social stigma is attached to her as if it were her fault that she got raped in the first place. Which rather shows a particularly sexist way of thinking even when a woman is the victim of something.

I don't feel as if there's all that much truth to this anymore. Although, keeping in mind, none of my Japanese friends have ever been raped before. This said, I had female friends who had been molestered by much older men either on trains or buses on the way to or from school. It's a disgusting part of Japanese culture that is often swept under the rug, but pops up in all forms of sexual media in Japan.

Whether it be pornography that glorifies gang rape, or taking advantage of girls in school uniforms, to manga comics that clearly depict girls who are underage. Japanese men need to have more power than the female in a relationship, and this is something that is transferred over to the roles in sex. There are very few Japanese sex videos that depict the female in a role of more power than the man. In fact, it often climaxes with the man unloading the fruits of his labour onto the girl's face; possibly one of the most degrading acts imaginable.

[Aralith]

What's even more surprising in Japan, is that all of the women (and men) are pressured by their families to finish high school and to have high marks. Yet, then the women are expected to maybe go to college, but definitely after that to settle down as a housewife. As an interesting aside, I remember reading that the amount of abortions in Japan are astronomically high among teens because of this pressure to finish school. So, they are pressured so much into doing something that they would abort a child, when the very thing they are trying to accomplish will eventually be useless. At least, it will be useless if they follow the old traditions.

So, it seems as though they are trying to pull themselves out of sexism, but have actually created an even bigger mess. Not that I'm saying sexism in Japan is a mess. Nor am I saying it isn't. I am trying to be as culturally unbiased as possible, and if sexism works in Japan, then it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. Same way that some cultures just cannot accept democracy (any come to mind?), and so it would not work in that particular culture. Perhaps because of Japan's culture, sexism is actually necessary, so the act of trying to forcibly remove it, rather than realize it slowly, is actually making things worse.

[Snapdragon]

the topic really should be changed to sexism in japan, judging from where the discussion is going.

[Aralith]

Originally Posted by Snapdragon

the topic really should be changed to sexism in japan, judging from where the discussion is going.

Well, I want to keep it about both really. Probably wasn't the best thread title, but I had a culturally biased moment and named it that. I really want this thread to relate to how both cultures view sexism and if this view of it has anything to do with how, when, and/or if it will ever be eradicated.

[Mike87]

Is there Sexism in America, of course like racism it may not be as prevalent as it once was but it surely exsists.

but admitted that at least thoughts that the symbols held an element of truth to them bubbled up in their minds

Which part that the kanjai pretty much states women belong in the house or that women can be a pain in the ass?

[Aralith]

Originally Posted by Mike87

Which part that the kanjai pretty much states women belong in the house or that women can be a pain in the ass?

Well, essentially the kanji is saying that two women are more likely to fight than two men, and that's the part that some of my more sexist (male) friends said they felt was pretty true.