Relationships and Religion

[Hombre de Mundo]

I made this because Asia decided to disagree with me

EDIT: And... as I type, I see that my post is becoming long and quite aggressive. It turned out to be a post to those of you who put religion in front of relationships and I don't know if that's what I originally planned or not. Anyway, don't take things personal and read with causion and debate reasonably

If you know me (even slightly) from the I:SB boards, you'll know that I'm very opposed to getting too involved in a religion, and I have very good reasons to be so. I'm not gonna get into those reasons though, but instead jump to the subject at hand.

We were talking with Sloths Rules. He said he was upset because of his girlfriend. Turned out that her being Christian was important to him, and that if she would ever abandon Christianity, he wouldn't be able to live with her.

I can't think of any good reason Religion should come in the way of a loving relationship. Now, I can't underestimate the importance of religion either, if for example a couple of different believes find themselves fighting about religious matters, then that might be a big problem. But I see no reason as to why anyone would say "I love you, but I can't be with you because you don't believe what I do". If a girl would say that to me, my reaction would be something like "What?"

Whatever happened to "learn from eachother"? I know religion can be quite a hustle, but not even giving it a shot is just plain stupid. You might have found what is to be the love of your life and yet you reject him/her immidiately because he/she doesn't believe what you do?

Then I heard the argument that if they're not of the same religion, they won't go to heaven together. Oh, really now? Last I checked, there isn't even a clear rule for who goes to heaven and who doesn't, because everyone says different. And is it more important to live a half-decent eternity with someone who shares your believes, or have an awesome life with the one?
And according to christianity, you don't have to spend an eternity with the person you marry either. "Till death do you part". Basically that means you can ditch your wife and start a "Sex and the City: Heaven" as soon as you die.

And I also wonder about Islam. If you die in Jihad and get your 72 virgins, I guess God doesn't mind if you have wife on earth or not. Right? This whole "spend an eternity" thing doesn't hold up. So why is it so important to some people for their loved ones to be of the same religion if it doesn't matter what happens in life since you can do whatever you want after you die? Then you can just spend life with someone you really like and then hook up with someone else after you die. If you're ready to leave a loved one now, why not later, if she's doomed anyway?

I'm not done yet. Another thing that bothers me is this: If you love someone and simply must have that person convert to your religion, why would you give up on that person, instead of going for it, and maybe, just maybe you'll manage to share your views of life with that person (even better, you might realise your religion isn't the one and only way, you might learn from him/her). If there's one thing I know about love, it's that you shouldn't give up that easy, because relationships take a lot of hard work. Is this something you religious people won't bother with, even?

Another thing I see is a lack of tolerance. I was together with a Christian girl for almost two years, and I respected her believes. I didn't like them, because the way I see it, no religion has more ground than the other, thus commiting yourself to one is like guessing a riddle you know you can't solve. Even so, I respected her believes, and I never thought of them as something that hindered our relationship. They didn't. She taught me a whole lot about Christianity and how it helped her, and I told her my in comparison bitter views of life, and we ended up having learned a lot, and we could also understand eachother better.

Now, why would anyone want to avoid such a thing? The way I see it, people from two different religions should have a lot to learn from eachother and enrichen their relationship. This is the good side of religion. The bad side is when people are too narrow-minded to learn from anyone, who can only see their point of view. Are you afraid of other views of life, or what is it that makes you turn down someone you want to live with because of something that should be a good thing?

The way I see it, religion should by no means be something that stops you from loving someone. Doesn't most religions teach that love is an awesome thing, even? I can see that problems may arise when two people with strong religious believes try to live together, but if you're not willing to give it a shot even, I suggest you start thinking what is more important to you - love, undertanding and co-existance or an old religion that restricts you from the many things that life are all about?

[Mr. Lexxi Aileron]

I'll make it simple and short.

If you can fully relate to someone in terms of the most important part of their life - which is usually their spiritual beliefs - the relationship is loads stronger.

If you can't, and your world-views come to a head, there will be tension in areas where there simply won't be in a relationship in which both partners are of the same faith. This is true particularly when it comes to morals, as morality is one aspect of a person's beliefs that definitely varies by world-view.

[Hombre de Mundo]

Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron

I'll make it simple and short.

Hah, that's a relief. I wouldn't want to read through a post like mine.

If you can fully relate to someone in terms of the most important part of their life - which is usually their spiritual beliefs - the relationship is loads stronger.

But does "relate" mean you have to agree on everything? I certainly don't think so.

[GarmGarf]

The second last paragraph was the one which influenced me the most. Excellent point.

Personally, I am a very religiously versitile person, and I would have no problem in engaging in a romantic relationship with a person, no matter what religion, or lack of religion they have.

However, marriage is a very religious thing to some people, and and it may be against their religion to do stuff outside of marriage, and they might perceive an atheist marriage to be different in essence to a Christian one, for example, so, it wouldn't be okay to do that stuff, even if they are married, unless the marriage is Christian in essence. Romantic relationships are the road to marriage for many people, and if the potential marriage's essence wont allow these acts of ultimate intimacy, the romantic relationship may as well not exist.

I don't believe in any of that, and I don't know if anyone does, but I was just composing a possible reason for this relationship-religion divide.

[CourageWielder]

If you look at it my way; me and Ti-Link have been going out for almost half a year. He's Christian; I'm Atheist. We both have gotten along, and respect each other. Just because we're of different beliefs, doesn't mean we don't get along. But most of ny friends also shun me for being Atheist.

Back to the point. To all you Christian and other faiths out there; just because your religion says you can't be with someone from another religion, doesn't mean you have to follow it. Follow your heart every once in a while.

[Mr. Lexxi Aileron]

Originally Posted by Hombre de Mundo

But does "relate" mean you have to agree on everything?

"Agreeing on everything" and "fully relating" to somebody in terms of world-view are two completely different concepts.

People can have shared world-views from two completely different perspectives; it's the relatability that strengthens the relationship, not necessarily an accord on things, although that certainly fosters harmony. Having different perspectives means you might have different priorities or opinions when it comes to certain situations in daily life, such as where to go for dinner or what to do for fun or whether it's more important to spend time with your dying grandmother or your brother who's about to ship off to Iraq for eight months.

Because religion often defines someone's beliefs about relationships, it's important that a couple is on the same level on almost every aspect. For example, while most people tend to see sex as a form of bonding, some people have differing views on how deep that bonding runs or what spiritual implications it has, what context it belongs in, or what the end goal should be. A couple is more likely to see eye-to-eye on these things if they have the same or similar religious convictions. And then, of course, there are religious views on marriage.

Just way too many variables. You have to narrow them down somehow, and more often than not, the best way to relate to someone is through religion and/or world-view. Every relationship I've been in previous to my current pending marriage has had some difference of opinion that has led to the crash and burn of the relationship, and almost all of them stemmed from religious differences or were at least coupled with them.

[Hombre de Mundo]

See, Lex, thats the thing. Your earlier relationships ended because of religion, but you gave it a good shot.

I'm very aware that religion matters, I just don't see the reasoning of giving up on someone for the sole purpose of them being of another standpoint. Things not working out in the end is a valid reason, but that is not.

EDIT: Also, agreeing on things does make things easier, but it can also make things boring. What is best for you? I don't know, but i certainly don't believe that agreeing on things make things better for everyone. At least, not in the long run.

[Galedeep]

My father was born and raised a Christian. My mother was born and raised Jewish. When they met and eventually decided they wanted to get married, my father decided to convert. While I'm sure they would have gotten married anyway, my dad's decision was based on the fact that he hadn't idenified himself as a practicing Christian for years, and that it would make it easier on my mother's side of the family (namely her mother) if she married someone who was Jewish, even a converted one.

(We just found out recently that my dad's Grandmother was actually Jewish, which meant he didn't technically have to convert, interestingly enough.)

So the biggest male/female relationship example that was set before me was one that was of two different religions originally. I've grown up with the two sides of my family having two different religions, and they've sometimes interacted at big family functions. I think because of this religion isn't something that really enters my head when I'm considering a relationship.

The big questions about weddings and having kids, those are more dependent on finding some sort of common ground when it comes to religious faith. But for just starting up a relationship or getting to know someone, religion isn't one of the big things I look for. It certainly wouldn't stop me from persuing a relationship with someone.

At the same time, if someone doesn't want to be in a relationship purely because we don't share a religion, its understandable, but not something I would adhere to. I'd get it, I'd accept it, but I probably wouldn't be happy.

[The Shademan]

This stuff will ruin a relationship. No one should be so attached to the rules of a faith that they reject a sentient being's love to feed it. If you are rejecting someone's love for a law, you are doing it to build your ego. If you do it because you feel you are doing them a favor, you are also building your ego. If you are doing it to make God happy (with you) then it is for your ego. All this is just a huge ego trip. The human mind trying to build a tower to escape what it always will be.

Love is a tenet of the true religion, and a law that kills it is a law of hate. Even hate has a time and place; but it is merely a result of fear that has been developed with the ego. Knowing when to use a rule and when not to use a rule is true wisdom.

But CourageWielder...your statement will not flow with Christians...I remembered a Bible verse after I heard what you said.

Originally Posted by The Bible

Deuteronomy 29:19
'If anyone should think to himself, "I will do well enough if I follow the dictates of my heart,"...'
Deuteronomy 29:20
'...Yahweh will not pardon him. His wrath shall burn against him.'

And there you go. So, anyway, yes. I have personal experience with this and it is a horrible thing to deal with. Concepts are not as important as people, people.

[Kouten]

Originally Posted by CourageWielder

Back to the point. To all you Christian and other faiths out there; just because your religion says you can't be with someone from another religion, doesn't mean you have to follow it. Follow your heart every once in a while.

Then again, a Christian marriage is one considered unity by God. So if someone doesn't believe in God, would that not prove a problem? A genuinely loving relationship could still be maintained, but as far as marriage goes, it all depends on what you view marriage is or should be and whether or not it is religious. I still believe in love no matter who it's between, and no, I don't think religion should get in the way of any relationship.

And Hombre de Mundo:
I'm only pointing out my opinion. I know this isn't exactly what you meant, but if I had to choose between a happy healthy relationship now over an eternity with love...I choose the latter.

[Aralith]

My experience with this is interesting. While I've never really been in a romantic relationship of any kind (let alone with someone who has different religious beliefs), my parents set an awfully good example of what we're talking about here. My mother is a rather devout Christian. Not like the kind that thinks that going to church and giving tithe and reading the Bible every minute of every day kind of Christian, though she certainly believes that those things help. She's the kind that knows the gist of what the Bible says, skips the details, and thinks that the most important part of her religion is having a personal relationship with Jesus. Now, just in my experience, the kind of Christian that my mother is far more sincere than the kind that thinks that going to church is the most important aspect of their religion, so I believe that my mother is what I classify as a "true Christian."

My father on the other hand, is an agnostic with some pretty atheistic tendencies. He's still on the fence, but if someone were to shove him, he would definitely fall over onto the atheist side. That being said, watching their relationship was rather interesting growing up. Though I didn't understand it when I was nine, being nineteen now it's kind of a different story, though I still don't understand all aspects of their relationship. And hey, why would I? It's their relationship, not mine. What I do understand is this: my parents love each other. They almost got divorced about nine years ago, but they got over their differences and have been happily married since.

Now, when I say happily married, I of course don't mean that everything is dilly-dally nice and joyful. It means that they are happy to be together, despite the fact that they often disagree on things. Now, admittedly, the majority of their arguments stem from their differing world views, which are definitely influenced by their respective religions, or lack thereof. So, it could be said that if my father was Christian, or my mother was agnostic/atheist, then they wouldn't disagree on nearly as much (although since atheism/agnosticism doesn't really have set rules, there would probably still be a fair amount of arguments) as they do now. But would they have really gained anything from each other? Probably not.

Both them, and their children including me, have been able to learn from their relationship. My mother was a pretty liberal person before she met my father, but she probably never would have really understood where pro-choice and homosexual marriage advocates were coming from if not for my father. On the other side of the coin, my father probably wouldn't have went through life thinking that all religious people are irrational nut-jobs, but my mother showed him the other side of Christianity, and that not all of them are insane people who just walk around saying, "God, god, god, god, god!"

Also, their children have benefited from it, myself included. It has given all of us a very rounded world view. Now, while I eventually ended up as an atheist, I went through several stages of religion before I wound up there. I started out as a Christian, because my mother insisted on taking all of her children to church. Then, around sixteen, when I really started to start making important decisions on my own, I started to understand my fathers point of view as well, and became an agnostic. Then, as I realized that I shouldn't follow either of my parents, but instead go find a religion that suited me the best (which was most definitely spurred by the mixed religions in my house), I was almost Buddhist, an even closer to almost Mormon (no offense to any Mormons on this board, but I really feel I dodged a bullet there), and then finally settled on atheist, which I have stuck with for just over a year and a half now.

My youngest brother is also an atheist. My second youngest brother doesn't really know what he is, and my sister is a Christian in very much the same sense that my mother is. A true Christian, in my book. And then when you think about all of the people that any of me or my three siblings have ever interacted with have at least shared in some aspect of our world view, whether they agreed with it or not. So in the end, my mother and father deciding to marry each other despite their religious differences has affected them and pretty much everyone around them for the better.

So, in closing, while I think that if religious differences really do just make the relationship too hard, that eventually people just need to know when to quit. But if they can put up with it, I agree with Hombre that they really should. Just look at how many benefits have been reaped from my mother and father's marriage. And that's only one example! So in the end, try, but if it really isn't going to work, you just need to know when to call it quits.

[Daphnes]

As soon as I saw the title I wondered if this was because of Sloths Rule's thread. Turns out, it is!

Now I think a relationship will flourish best if the two people have many of the same basic beliefs. religiously or otherwise. Different religions have different rules, and each one desires full commitment.

I remember a saying I read: "If God is your co-pilot, switch seats". I never followed this, as I feel I should be in charge of my own life. However, the thing is the Bible teaches you to let God rule you. Putting anything before God is a sin, as the first commandment has also been used to mean anything and everything you put before him. Not just other deities from other religions.

Someone who wants to fully commit themselves to christianity will put everything before God. Of course, this idea does beget extremists.

Now, if you have two fully committed religious people, they're going to think the other is going to go to the bad place. If they decide to reject the other, they may be trying to protect themselves. I don't see it as building up the ego, though.

[lord-of-shadow]

In paper, Hombre, your points are excellent, and in an ideal society, we'd all be better off if people were able to learn from each other in such ways.

But we do not live in an ideal, society, and this is not paper. I'll use myself as an example here. I am quite strongly atheist. I actively despise organized religion. This does not mean that I am totally against the idea of god or religion; I recognize the peace, happiness, strength, and sense of purpose/belonging that religion brings to some people, and understand that it is a good thing. But these are all things that I believe can exist without organized religion.

My fiancee is agnostic. Just throwing that out there.

Anyways, getting to the point, I very strongly disagree with many aspects of Christianity. And that would prevent me from ever falling in love with a strong Christian woman. Not because I'm some sort of shallow fool who would reject someone I love based on that, but because it would prevent me from ever falling in love in the first place.

Contrary to what some fairy tales may tell you, there's no such thing as "true love on first sight." That's called infatuation, and it is rarely an enduring, powerful love. I would argue that it CANNOT be an enduring powerful love without spending a lot of time with one another. Thus, spending time with one another is a prerequisite for a true, romantic, long-term love to form.

And long before I spent enough time with a strongly religious woman for something like that to form, our differences would drive us apart. There may be some potential for exceptions here, but the possibility is vanishingly small.

IF, however, my fiancee, a woman whom I already love with every fiber of my being, were to go out and convert to Christianity (god forbid), I would still love her, and strive to understand the change and overcome the tension it would introduce to our relationship. And maybe we would succeed.

In summation... I view differing religions as a barrier to entry into a long-lasting relationship, but not so much once that relationship is formed.

[Puck]

I am going to be frank, My religion is worth far more to me then any relationship. I don't care what anyone thinks, that is what I beleive, sure I might go out with someone of a different religion, but if it came down to marraige I would stick with my Religion.

[Hombre de Mundo]

Originally Posted by Kouten

And Hombre de Mundo:
I'm only pointing out my opinion. I know this isn't exactly what you meant, but if I had to choose between a happy healthy relationship now over an eternity with love...I choose the latter.

Would you evaluate on this? One of my points was that you can basically have both, you don't have to choose. You can have a happy relationship on earth and then have your eternity of love when you die, since marriage is thing for the living only.

Originally Posted by l-o-s

I actively despise organized religion. This does not mean that I am totally against the idea of god or religion; I recognize the peace, happiness, strength, and sense of purpose/belonging that religion brings to some people, and understand that it is a good thing. But these are all things that I believe can exist without organized religion.

We're on the same page here, 'cept I'm agnostic.

Anyways, getting to the point, I very strongly disagree with many aspects of Christianity. And that would prevent me from ever falling in love with a strong Christian woman. Not because I'm some sort of shallow fool who would reject someone I love based on that, but because it would prevent me from ever falling in love in the first place.

I can see myself in the same situation. I know for a fact that I'd have a very hard time falling in love with an unintelligent person, for example. But this is more of a subconscious thing, and far from "I love you but I can't be with you because you don't believe what I do"


Aralith, I like that story and that's exactly how it should be. Well... more or less, one might argue, but whatever. Oh and:

and that not all of them are insane people who just walk around saying, "God, god, god, god, god!"

thanks for making me laugh

[Verrick]

How can you expect to hold up a relationship if you don't believe in the same basic ways of life? Can you imagine a Christian visiting his muslim wife's family to celebrate ramadan? That directly defies Christian religon. Thou shalt not bow down to idols.
I'm sure the Jewish people would have no problems celebrating Easter.
Then ofcourse there's a bit of black sheep syndrome amongst strongly religious families. It is fairly likely that the couple would be shunned by their own family for the choice of marrying outside the faith. (I have a muslim friend who said her parents would basically disown her if she married outside Islam.) That's just how our society works.

Oh, and this was really annoying me. It's beliefs not believes. The latter is a verb not a noun!!!

[lord-of-shadow]

Well, Rhalen, that's a sad, extremist little world you've painted there. Thankfully, not everyone sees the world and it's workings in such a black and white way. And saying that "it's just how it is" or "that's the way society works" doesn't necessarily mean that's it's how it should be, or that it's acceptable. If people all thought like that then we'd still live in the dark ages, because that sort of thinking is the antithesis of progress. Conservatism at it's worst, heh.

[Hombre de Mundo]

Originally Posted by Rhalen

Can you imagine a Christian visiting his muslim wife's family to celebrate ramadan? That directly defies Christian religon. Thou shalt not bow down to idols.

You don't have to "bow down" in order to have a good time with your family. I've been singing christian stuff for graduation countless of years and never been bothered with it. I'm sure God understands if you have a good time with your family while not actually worshipping other guys.

That's just how our society works.

I know that was how it w