Gender Roles

[Andross]

Let's discuss gender roles.

I believe that the importance of gender roles are declining; in other words, gender roles are losing their "importance" or "strength." After all, gender roles have been on a steady decline throughout history- more women have left behind the traditional "house" roles of marriage, and both males and females are gradually being found in career positions that, historically, they haven't been found in.

That's what we know. Now, let's get in to future predictions and theories and crap. Let's take this a step further- Let's say that, in the future, we will advance to the point where gender roles, and gender identity, will be virtually nonexistant. Sexism will cease, as both males and females will be seen as equals, except for sexual organs and functions.

Now, let's take this another step further- what if we come to the point where science will alter the human race, and we become, physically, sexless? This would go hand-in-hand with the possibility of reaching immortality through medical and scientific advancement.

Or, in the other route, gender roles and gender identity will always have a certain amount of importance in determining who someone is; moreso than education, skill, or creativity.

Well, there's three possibilities for the future of gender roles; and there are probably many, many more out there. So, discuss. Are gender roles on the decline? Do you have a more extreme view, and believe they will become virtually nonexistant? Or do you believe they will always have some level of prominence? Let's discuss.

[Galedeep]

While I suppose I would agree that gender roles have declined as time has worn on, I won't say that gender identities will ever cease. Of course they have changed, and will continue to in all likelihood, but part of what defines us as people is our genders. Which isn't to say that all males or females will inevitably have the same basic traits or characteristics, but rather how we define our own gender identities.

In other words, part of who I am is that I am male, a man. That influences how I act, how I carry myself, how I treat and interact with other people. It doesn't define everything about me, but it is a part of what does. I don't think that humanity will ever reach a time where the male/female line is so nonexistant that people cease to let their gender be a part of what defines them.

[sage_of_fire]

Well, it may be true that they are on a decline, though this is not necassarily a bad thing. With things like sexual reassignment, it's basically possible to become whatever sex you choose to be. So I think it's possible for a future without specified genders, but it's highly unlikely. There is a distinct difference in the way males and females act and behave and respond to different situations, even though "tomboys" and "feminine guy" seem to sometimes cross this basic line, it's still a majority that doesn't. All in all, variety is what makes the human race move and form. If genders would be taken away, the yes, sexism may cease, but people will always hate and discriminate for some other reason. It's a sad truth, but a truth none the less. Plus, I don't really like the idea of a conformist society, when you say that the future might be genderless, then I get a picture in my head of a bunch of bald completely same-formed people in gray body suits walking down the side walk. Not a pretty picture. But, that's just my opinion.

[Surio]

I see gender roles declining in the future, as humanism has breached and the world (at least in North America) is thinking more about equality and all that.

However, I don't agree with humanism so whatever. I don't understand feminism and equal rights that well.. I mean, feminists don't love women, they hate women! That's why they want to be like men! People say that the Bible and other religious books/sects/groups/people or others who give women a specific role are demeaning women, but in actuality (in the Bible's case), they aren't demeaning women, they're showing their nobility! Less work and more praise from men!

[Chencheya]

Originally Posted by Surio

However, I don't agree with humanism so whatever. I don't understand feminism and equal rights that well.. I mean, feminists don't love women, they hate women! That's why they want to be like men! People say that the Bible and other religious books/sects/groups/people or others who give women a specific role are demeaning women, but in actuality (in the Bible's case), they aren't demeaning women, they're showing their nobility! Less work and more praise from men!

...

Wow, this is probably one of the most ignorant and offensive posts I've ever seen in I:SB. Feminism isn't about women hating each other or wanting to be like men. It's about being treated fairly, not wanting to be discriminated against because some old crackpots made up a story centuries ago about a woman ruining everything for mankind by chomping on an apple and therefore thinking all women should be subservient to men because of that. Gender equality refers to the equal valuing of the roles of women and men. It works to overcome the barriers of stereotypes and prejudices so that both sexes are able to equally contribute to and benefit from economic, social, cultural and political developments within society.

You're right, you don't understand what feminism is or what equal rights are one iota. The bible, not demeaning to women and showing nobility to them? Don't ****ing make me laugh. It's ANYTHING but noble to women.

[Eternal Legend]

I suppose that society these days is accepting feminine men and tomboyish woman as normal as everyone else. And this also applies with same-sex marriage.

I do believe that gender roles have been changing for some time now, but I don't think that we will become physically sexless some point in future.

Either that, or I am just confused about the whole question?

[Sage of Earth]

One day there won't be any way to tell the difference between the genders apart from the genitals, at which point we'll have to either regard the two as different species to tell the difference, or not give a flying toss and have all be truly equal.

Also on the subject of the Bible respecting women - Deuteronomy 22:13-20 provides that if a woman is a virgin and her husband claims otherwise upon marriage, he will be flogged, but if she is not a virgin upon marriage, she will be stoned. I also remember reading at one point (but can't find) that if a woman speaks in Church she's to be taken outside the town walls and stoned until death. And so on.

I don't agree with feminists however, since by definition they're not looking for equal rights to, but better rights than, men. They wouldn't be "feminists" if they didn't believe the woman superior to the man. And that's terrible.

[Galedeep]

Originally Posted by Sage of Earth

I don't agree with feminists however, since by definition they're not looking for equal rights to, but better rights than, men. They wouldn't be "feminists" if they didn't believe the woman superior to the man. And that's terrible.

That's only a small faction of the feminist movement, most of which hasn't been at all prevalent since the late 60s and 70s. Asmodeus has the best definition of modern feminism so far. It's not about being better or exactly the same as men, it's about getting fair and equal treatment while at the same time having their identity as women be respected and recognized. Considering the fact that men can be feminists as well, I don't think the modern feminist movement is at all about saying women are superior.

[Sage of Earth]

Originally Posted by Galedeep

That's only a small faction of the feminist movement, most of which hasn't been at all prevalent since the late 60s and 70s. Asmodeus has the best definition of modern feminism so far. It's not about being better or exactly the same as men, it's about getting fair and equal treatment while at the same time having their identity as women be respected and recognized. Considering the fact that men can be feminists as well, I don't think the modern feminist movement is at all about saying women are superior.

Meh, I don't believe men can be feminists unless they're submissive to the females for whatever reason. Like how I know women who genuinely believe the woman's place is in the home. A member of a gender who believes the other gender is superior. Both, however, are wrong if you ask me. I believe men can fight for equal rights, treatment, and respect for women, but as I say, the word "feminism" itself implies a belief that the female is superior.

Anyway, I believe that women are already treated favourably, moreso than men. In Germany they have affirmative action laws for the civil service, which means that the workforce must be at all times 50% male and 50% female. Men who are more qualified than the women applying get shafted just to meet the quota (granted it works both ways but there are usually more men in the civil service, stereotyping or not it's there).

In Britain I don't think men can get paternity leave, or at least it was brought in much later here than in other countries in Europe (just because it's women that give birth to the baby doesn't mean the father won't need to take time off when she goes back to work to look after it). Also here rape laws apply only to men in Britain, women can only commit "sexual assault", which is much less serious, and consent to sexual intercourse laws pretty much only defend women here.

In shops you can get women-only sections for DVDs, CDs, and books but should anyone set up men-only DVD, CD, or book sections, there'd be outrage (There are men-only clothes shops I concede, but with clothes there's a pretty distinct difference since it's to do with covering the body. With DVDs, if I try to claim a film is "just for men", a woman would probably try to argue with me why it's just for men, but we still have to accept that certain films are aimed solely at women?). It's the same with blaxploitation films and black literature, but this isn't the place to discuss that.

And then there's society. A woman can attack a man, and pretty much savage him, but if he so much as grabs hold of her arms to stop her, he'll be branded as someone who beats women. And god forbid a man try to tell a woman she's not strong enough to do a particular job, whether or not it's true

[Margar]

I see nothing wrong with people abiding by "typical" gender roles if that's what they want to do. It's when people decide to go off and try to denounce them completely just for "equality's sake". I mean- women in general are more the caregivers, and men the providers. that's obviously declining, but it's nothing HORRIBLE to try to abolish. People should live their lives in whatever way works for them. if it's traditional- great. if not- great.

feminism is just as bad as some biggot trying to uphold gender roles. it's just as extreme, just to the opposite end. no sex should be societally favored over another.

on a side note- I just find this funny- some feminists want to outlaw every word that has the word "man" in it- like manhole... they wanted it changed to femmehole!!!! (gross!)

[Sage of Earth]

Originally Posted by Margar

feminism is just as bad as some biggot trying to uphold gender roles. it's just as extreme, just to the opposite end. no sex should be societally favored over another.

Well if feminism is supposed to be "equal rights and respect for women", then me starting up masculism, or "equal rights and respect for men" going off what I posted should be fine too. But no, there'd clearly be outrage.

on a side note- I just find this funny- some feminists want to outlaw every word that has the word "man" in it- like manhole... they wanted it changed to femmehole!!!! (gross!)

You sure they don't just want to make a gender-neutral term for these things? If not, that not only proves my point, but is absolutely hilarious and gives me plenty of opportunity to take the mick

[GarmGarf]

I have been labeled a "feminist" by my peers, however, I assure them that I am not one. I am an "anti-sexist".

With the 50%/50% thing in Germany, well, that is more sexist than anti-sexist (hmm, okay sir, we have one less male than female in this department, so in you go over the 13 females who are actually better than you at this job!). People shouldn't be judged by their gender; they should be judged on the content of their character, and ability, if it applies.

[efo]

of course there is a decline, i mean the Y chromosome is disappearing.... soon there will be males but without a little Y in the genes

[Margar]

Originally Posted by Sage of Earth

Well if feminism is supposed to be "equal rights and respect for women", then me starting up masculism, or "equal rights and respect for men" going off what I posted should be fine too. But no, there'd clearly be outrage.



You sure they don't just want to make a gender-neutral term for these things? If not, that not only proves my point, but is absolutely hilarious and gives me plenty of opportunity to take the mick

well the most extreme feminists are not about equal rights. they go so far as to demand special treatment (reparations?).

the really annoying super-feminazis are the ones that wanted the words changed (Femmehole )

[Tazryl]

I love the idea that gender roles are declining. We were kind of discussing this during class today. We were studying the 1950's culture and how during this time it women who stayed home while the male went to work and such. While discussing it our teacher said something how this is kinda reversed. He admitted that if he could, he would be a stay home dad while his wife became the provider. When he pointed out that most males in this room would not mind this there was quite a few people who said that they wouldnt mind a bit.

Anyways I think that people should be judged on their qualifications when it comes to a job. If someone is better for the job then they should get it compared to someone who is less qualified. It should not matter what race, religon, or your gender. Bottom line is if I can get the best workers for a job, you bet I am going to hire them.

I dislike the idea of that germany law about 50/50. Idealy it sounds great, realisticly it sucks. It prevents people who deserve to get the job from getting it. it should all come down to qualifications.

I also dislike how some feminist go a bit overboard. Someone earlier in this thread mentioned how some want to change all words with 'man' in it. Honestly, Femmehole? That sounds kinda perverted to me.

Also this seems to defeat the idea of equality. Seems like these people are trying to make it appear that females are superior while the males are inferior.

Personally, I can't wait until the day when gender roles disapear.

[Andross]

Originally Posted by sage_of_fire

Well, it may be true that they are on a decline, though this is not necassarily a bad thing. With things like sexual reassignment, it's basically possible to become whatever sex you choose to be.

Sex changes; this concept reminds me of a similiar topic that I have discussed before- could sexual reassignment, or "sex changes", possibly be a form of sexism, because it demonstrates the feeling that "gender roles/identities" (In other words, the traditional or historical standards and/or stereotypes that human civilization has set for the sexes, and not what individualism has set, instead) are important, major factors in determining who someone is?

[sage_of_fire]

Originally Posted by Andross

Sex changes; this concept reminds me of a similiar topic that I have discussed before- could sexual reassignment, or "sex changes", possibly be a form of sexism, because it demonstrates the feeling that "gender roles/identities" (In other words, the traditional or historical standards and/or stereotypes that human civilization has set for the sexes, and not what individualism has set, instead) are important, major factors in determining who someone is?

Hm, I really don't think it could be considered a form of sexism. Some people are just born into the wrong gender, and feel they should fix it. Now it could be taken as a form of sexism, and is taken as such frequently, but realisticly I just think it is as I mentioned above.