How god could have been "born"

[Aralith]

Okay, first and foremost, I am an atheist and this is just a little play into the realm of devil's advocacy. I am posting this partly because I am convinced it could explain away the apparent paradox of god's creation, and partly because I love sparking discussion, so here goes.

Earlier this week I was reading A Brief History of Time. Some of it is over my head, but I understand the gist of it... so far. Anyway, in it, Hawkings addressed the issues of time, space, and spacetime. It was then that he explained how human concept of time is completely based on the space that our universe exists in. No space, no time. This is why the theory of relativity works, in fact. Were our time not connected to our space, relativity would cease to function.

So, thinking through this, if it was in fact the Big Bang that "began" the universe as we know it (and I believe that is what happened), then that means that before the Big Bang, space did not exist. This is proven by the idea that space has been constantly expanding since the Big Bang. Thus, before Big Bang, there would have been no space, and therefore no time, at least in human terms. Thus, it would have been entirely possible for a god like being to have been "created" (loosely, cause I still don't know what would have created him/her/it) and yet seem eternal because the "time" in which he was created would be completely incomprehensible to humans. He/her/it may as well be eternal, because there is no possible way for humans to understand "when" he/her/it was born.

So, thoughts anyone?

[Sage of Earth]

That's the usual argument when most atheists explain that the universe is older than 10,000 years old and the current theory of existence needs a Big Bang, which has some proof to support it (the universe expanding, which means it must have expanded outwards from something). Matter spontaneously appearing out of nowhere. The next question is obviously "Where did that matter come from", and that answer tends to be "God".

Science however covers for matter appearing out of nowhere even in our universe, just not in quantifiable quantities, so we just have to figure out why that is. And I won't accept "GOD!" for an answer, I'm afraid.

Your argument doesn't cover God being born at all either. It just makes an excuse for how he exists, and how he's responsible for creating everything, not how he got there in the first place.

[Verrick]

It's rather simple:

God got here by being. He has no beginning and no end. Ergo was not born.

[Sage of Earth]

Originally Posted by Rhalen

It's rather simple:

God got here by being. He has no beginning and no end. Ergo was not born.

But you can't BE if there's no space for you to BE in, and no time for you to BE during.

[Tazryl]

I prefer my little theory... which for the most part is just silly. You see in the future they have infact developed Time Machines, 'God' is actually from the future who used this time machine to go back to before the Big Bang, he does something to cause the big bang and in the process he became God

on a serious note,

God is... well God. He doesnt need Space or Time ot exist.

[Aralith]

Originally Posted by Rhalen

It's rather simple:

God got here by being. He has no beginning and no end. Ergo was not born.

But see, here's the problem, if god can just be, then so could the universe. In fact, since the universe is not a living object, and therefore at least somewhat less complex than living organism, it would actually be more likely that the universe would have spontaneously generated than something more complex than it. However, I have actually fixed this problem with my explanation. If i was god, and I had actually been born, but outside of space and time (and therefore, completely unrelatable to humans) I would have just told them that I was eternal, because at that point I might as well be, at least in the eyes of humans.

So, god is eternal, but does have a creation, therefore satisfying the contradiction created when one says, "God can just be, but the universe can't." God does just be, but he also has an origin. I told this to a pastor friend of mine and he completely agreed that that was possible, so I don't really see how its a contradiction with any biblical statements. At least, I'm assuming you see a contradiction, otherwise you wouldn't really refute it, right?

Also, I'm not really saying born in the typical sense, hence the quotation marks around it. I'm just saying that he has some kind of origin, which, to me at least, everything would have to have an origin. So, it would at least satisfy my curiosity. Of course that would only really matter if I believed in him, which I don't, so it's kind of a moot point for me. Just something interesting to discuss.

[Kouten]

Originally Posted by Sage of Earth

But you can't BE if there's no space for you to BE in, and no time for you to BE during.

I see you've already taken to agreeing with such a slapdash theory. But here's the thing. The big bang was't a random explosion that thrusted everything into existance, and even if it was, that would only work to help prove God, because there had to be some sort of action that began the big bang, right? But here's one thing: Just because there's no matter doesn't mean that there's no space. Vacuums exist between gas particles. That's why you can compress air. So, even if there's nothing filling the void, there's still space. Also, no one ever said that God existed within our universe. More commonly understood, God exists in and created Earth from heaven, so why would it matter if there was no space in our world? If heaven exists, nothing says that it exists in the universe.

Luckily for you guys, that's no longer how they suspect the big bang worked. There had to be matter since the beginning (you know, the Law of Conservation of Mass/Matter). The new idea proposed, which I consider more likely, is that before the big bang, all mass and matter was somehow concentrated into the center of the universe (picture the biggest black hole possible). That is, until the pressure released and the universe was bound back into existance. There's no telling if this idea is true or not, seeing how we can't prove the big bang at all.

The point I was making before is that not only, according to the faith, did God always exist, but also if God were born, he could have been created even before the big bang, as there was space for him to exist, that is, assuming that heaven lies in our universe. However, I'd also like to challenge the fact that he was created because then, the question is, "why does matter exist in the first place." Just because of the law mentioned earlier, matter isn't necessarily eternal. It had to have come about somehow. However, a god doesn't (though some religions do provide that gods were born).

[Sage of Earth]

Originally Posted by Kouten

I see you've already taken to agreeing with such a senseless theory. But here's where you're wrong. The big bang was't a random explosion that thrusted everything into existance, and even if it was, that would only work to help prove God, because there had to be some sort of action that began the big bang, right?

Not right, because "where did that matter come from" only spawns the answer "GOD!!!!" from religious people. And then we ask the question "Where did God come from?" which has been addressed but I don't buy the "he was always there" argument. Also I fail to see how my theory is senseless given the next point.

But here's one thing: Just because there's no matter doesn't mean that there's no space.

The argument of Stephen Hawking presumes there is no space if there is no time, and there is no time if there is no space. You've missed the point. Nothing to do with matter at all. This theory requires that there was nothing before the existence/creation of the universe. Nothing. Not just emptiness but actually nothing. But if time started when the universe was created, then there can't be a "before" the universe. Regardless, the theory is there.

Also, no one ever said that God existed within our universe. More commonly understood, God exists in and created Earth from heaven, so why would it matter if there was no space in our world? If heaven exists, nothing says that it exists in the universe.

So presumably Heaven is a parallel universe of some kind. Awesome.

Luckily for you guys, that's no longer how they suspect the big bang worked. There had to be matter since the beginning (you know, the Law of Conservation of Mass/Matter). The new idea proposed, which I consider more likely, is that before the big bang, all mass and matter was somehow concentrated into the center of the universe (picture the biggest black hole possible). That is, until the pressure released and the universe was bound back into existance. There's no telling if this idea is true or not, seeing how we can't prove the big bang at all.

It's true that we can't prove it, but as far as I'm aware the matter was always a necessary part of the Big Bang theory. The universe is constantly expanding, so the next logical step is that there must be a reason for its expansion, or how it's expanding, and "it exploded" is a pretty decent, if not provable, answer for both.

The point I was making before is that not only, according to the faith, did God always exist, but also if God were born, he could have been created even before the big bang, as there was space for him to exist, that is, assuming that heaven lies in our universe. However, I'd also like to challenge the fact that he was created because then, the question is, "why does matter exist in the first place." Just because of the law mentioned earlier, matter isn't necessarily eternal. It had to have come about somehow. However, a god doesn't (though some religions do provide that gods were born).

Why, because they're magical?

[Project 2501]

When people talk about a god, they're usually referring to an all-powerful creator of the universe. This definition of god is undermined by its logical inconsistency, but we don't have to define a god as omnipotent; instead of using an absolute, we can simply define a god relative to humanity's current state of being as someone exponentially more intelligent and powerful than any human or group of humans. Given a lot of time and highly advanced technology, it could perhaps be possible to create such a being, who is not a god in the absolute sense but when compared to humanity might as well be.

[Kouten]

Originally Posted by Sage of Earth

Why, because they're magical?

No. Because they're GODS! Gods are (most often) omnipotent, omniscient, omni-present. At least they have an answer. You have a theory.

[Sage of Earth]

Originally Posted by Kouten

No. Because they're GODS! Gods are (most often) omnipotent, omniscient, omni-present. At least they have an answer. You have a theory.

The three abilities are often listed as "omnipotence, omiscience, and omnibenevolence". Omnipresence is counted in omnipotence. Also, there are many arguments as to how omnipotence in and of itself is a logical paradox and therefore cannot exist, and as to how an entity that is all of omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent can allow our world to exist, further disproving these abilities and therefore disproving the existence of a God of this nature at least. I won't go into those because the last few pages of the "How can people be atheists?" thread covers that.

They do not have an answer, they have a statement which religious people simply accept. I have a theory which is a more valid answer than "a wizard did it". Should you disprove these theories, we will accept this proof and use whatever knowledge we gain from the proof to find another theory, rather than persist with our theory and find OTHER proof that may back it up.

[nighthawkx]

Think of God as ebing a property of the universe, much like how gravity is a property of matter

[Chencheya]

To me, if God 'exists' at all, I'd would believe it would be more of a process or a property of universal law (much like how nighthawkx says), rather than an actual, sentient ethereal being that we've dubbed god. God may be the entire universe itself, or merely an element as much as gravity is, yet often, religion tends to apply anthropomorphism to something that we know virtually nothing about. They say that god dislikes either gay people, or dislikes what they do, when god may actually be nothing more than other element in the universe and has no more opinion on homosexuality than a bar of gold does.

Is it necessary to anthromorphize the notion of god? After all, I'd suggest the fact that "dimensionality' is a human construct, the same way that the three colour system of vision is - i.e. a construct based on our perception, rather than what really may exist. "God" is the first attempt to invent science, to explain things that we didn't know the answer to. Why does the sun set and rise every day? Could a god be pulling the sun up and down for us? Why are there stars in the sky? God is looking down on us.

A god is an explanation of certain interesting phenomena. Through describing what a god is capable of, people have described and explained their own models and conceptions of the universe. God is, essentially, an early hypothesis of mankind, probably going back as far as the days of cavemen who wondered what fire was and where it came from. Gods are the unquestioned, irresistable motivations that govern certain behaviors of human beings, the things we obey when we would otherwise refuse or ignore other people. Gods are denatured token parents and occasionally elder siblings of authority, and a source of comfort to many. Theys are the easy way out or what people believe to be the final, unignorable threat of death, and are the burden bearers in our lives, the ever elusive scapegoats that too many people pass the flack to when they need a higher authority to help accomplish their goals.

[Aralith]

Originally Posted by Kouten

The point I was making before is that not only, according to the faith, did God always exist, but also if God were born, he could have been created even before the big bang, as there was space for him to exist, that is, assuming that heaven lies in our universe. However, I'd also like to challenge the fact that he was created because then, the question is, "why does matter exist in the first place." Just because of the law mentioned earlier, matter isn't necessarily eternal. It had to have come about somehow. However, a god doesn't (though some religions do provide that gods were born).

This... is why I find religion so hard to believe. The fact that you are willing to apply causality to the universe, but not to your own god which you claim created the universe. How can you say that god can just be when the universe can't? That's a logical fallacy. You're picking and choosing where a law applies without any stated reason. If you actually have a rationale for how he can be eternal but nothing else can, I'd like to hear it. And please, not just, "He's god. He can do anything." If that is the case, I'd like to hear a coherent explanation for how he acquired these powers, or if he had them all along, what is it about god that allows him to just have these powers?

[Solink]

God made time. God was in "enternity" all along amde made human life when he felt like it.

[Verrick]

Alright, why don't you people stop trying to apply logic to something no one can understand. How can something be omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient? It just doesn't logically work. If you're gonna believe in a higher power, don't think it out, just know that it is.

That's the problem with people: too concerned with how and not enough with what.

[Aralith]

Originally Posted by Rhalen

Alright, why don't you people stop trying to apply logic to something no one can understand. How can something be omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient? It just doesn't logically work. If you're gonna believe in a higher power, don't think it out, just know that it is.

That's the problem with people: too concerned with how and not enough with what.

And there is the fundamental reason that I cannot believe in god. I cannot accept something that I cannot understand, and that I cannot prove with empirical, observational evidence. However, I am concerned with both. For example, if you throw a neutron at a wall with two holes in it, our mind would tell us that that neutron will only go through one hole. But it goes through both!!

I have no f***ing clue HOW that works. The fact that it happens pretty much proves that it exists though, so I am forced to accept it, thus WHAT is important as well. The problem with god is that A. if he existed, I could not explain how, but more importantly B. there is no way that I, or anyone else for that matter, can empirically prove he/she/it exists through observational evidence until he decides to start revealing himself a little more.

Also, just as a side note, why would god create humans with the ability to rationally think if, by the very act of rationally thinking, we begin to doubt him/her/it? Like, I get giving us free will to choose whether to reject or deny him as our god, and I get that the very act of revealing himself denies faith, but giving us the ability to rationally think just makes no sense. Does he just not want humans to get to heaven?

[Fox McCloud]

Originally Posted by Aralith

Also, just as a side note, why would god create humans with the ability to rationally think if, by the very act of rationally thinking, we begin to doubt him/her/it? Like, I get giving us free will to choose whether to reject or deny him as our god, and I get that the very act of revealing himself denies faith, but giving us the ability to rationally think just makes no sense. Does he just not want humans to get to heaven?

Rather he gave you the rational intellect so that you can get to know Him through the abundant signs He has left for you and around your immediate existence. But also, so that you may exercise this intellect, to think, to make your own decisions and ultimately, to make the right decision by acknowledging his presence.

If you choose to ignore the signs which He has placed for you, thus ignoring and rejecting his existence, you will have only yourself to blame on the day of Judgement. You cannot point the finger at anyone, you cannot blame anyone and neither can you point the finger at God and blame Him for limiting or restricting your ability to think and reach rational conclusions.

I hope this answers your concern =)

[Big Bro Davidia]

That's a rather strange thought. Did you know that there are actually a large number of other dimensions that never unravelled? There is no full explanation for why our Universe is setup such that we only can move in 3 spatial dimensions. Believe it or not, there ARE other ways to move (or could/should have been). So, before we start considering having no space, let's realize please that we really don't understand our own as well as one might think.

In any case, the reason it is strange for me to see someone speaking of God and volumetric space is that it's pretty obvious to me that God is not limited by this creation which he has rolled out before us. In fact, some time in what we call the future, God will roll up all that He has made in this physical realm like a scroll and be done with it. To God, space is simply a canvas upon which to work His wonders.

And by the bye, I see no reason for God to ever have needed birthing. o-o This is HIS place. If He decides to craft some furniture for it, so be it, and I'm grateful for the opportunity.

From one paint drop to another,
-BBD+

[Aralith]

Originally Posted by Fox McCloud

Rather he gave you the rational intellect so that you can get to know Him through the abundant signs He has left for you and around your immediate existence. But also, so that you may exercise this intellect, to think, to make your own decisions and ultimately, to make the right decision by acknowledging his presence.

If you choose to ignore the signs which He has placed for you, thus ignoring and rejecting his existence, you will have only yourself to blame on the day of Judgement. You cannot point the finger at anyone, you cannot blame anyone and neither can you point the finger at God and blame Him for limiting or restricting your ability to think and reach rational conclusions.

I hope this answers your concern =)

While you may believe that there are signs all around pointing to god, I think we can both name plenty of signs that point away from him. Whatever your feelings about evolution or big bang, those things exist (at least in thought), and humans first began reaching those conclusions through the rational thought. And yet all of the "signs" that you mention in gods favor would not require rational thought.

Some of the most obvious ones being things such as: the universe exists, how could things create themselves, this life can't be it, etc. These things would obviously require a level of thought above what animals have, but complete rational thought just seems a bit too much to me. It doesn't take much thinking capacity to realize that your environment exists, which is one of the key points lots of theists like to make. That the very fact that the universe exists is somehow a proof of god.

Anyways, it just seems that this rational thought which you claim is needed to see the signs around us also gives us the ability to come up with (just for lack of a better word) things that would seem to inherently deny god, or at least a Christian one. It just seems like a setup. It's kind of like the Christians that claim that god put all of the evidence for evolution to test their faith. What?! Why would god purposely give you false evidence to test you. He's saying, "Believe in me, but haha, jokes on you, all of the evidence points away from me, so just use that rational thought to go straight to hell." I don't know. Just kind of seems that way to me.