Why are Atheists so set on Proving Christianity Wrong?

[The Shademan]

Originally Posted by Miilou Suede

Funny you mention it, killing off (not raping which was condemned) would have been the most loving option.

shouldn't the butchering of the Amalekite children be considered war crimes?

(Ctrl+F for the section labeled "So, if the Amalekite aggression virtually required the elimination of the warrior-class, what practical options for survival remained for the women/kids?")

It outlines the four possible options of what to do with all the women/children.

1. Take them back as slaves or to be told to do so.
Which could have been very cruel knowing what may have happened with outside slave owners (Egyptians).
2. Enlist them in a social welfare program
Which didn't exist at the time (i.e. soup kitchen)
3. Leave them there in the desert
And with all the men dead, who would take care of them, farm, hunt. Nobody! They would just slowly rot until their death.
4. Kill them quickly
Obviously the most humane. A quick cut of the sword would be the most painless, humane option as opposed to other brutal methods (crucifixion and the like).

God doesn't delight in killing, in fact He prefers mercy.

"Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’" Ex 33.11

OR use his divine powers to supply them with some kind of self-replicating bread and fish until they found a new place to live.

He prefers mercy? No, sounds like the divinity prefers its own way over mercy. Real mercy would be to simply let someone live. There's no mercy used by Yahweh. He either lets a person live for being obedient (or messes with him if he seems like he'd be useable enough until it CAN use him) or kills him for not obeying until Jesus comes around.

[Miilou Suede]

God is not a deity who bends over backwards for someone who is unrepentant and hateful towards Him. The Amelakites were also a bloodthirsty people, irregardless of where they stood with God, and had He not commanded the Israelites to destroy them He could be a considered a cold, unloving God who isn't willing to protect His people and the surrounding communities that were being plundered of everything they had.

[Nietzsche]

Originally Posted by Miilou Suede

God is not a deity who bends over backwards for someone who is unrepentant and hateful towards Him. The Amelakites were also a bloodthirsty people, irregardless of where they stood with God, and had He not commanded the Israelites to destroy them He could be a considered a cold, unloving God who isn't willing to protect His people and the surrounding communities that were being plundered of everything they had.

*cough*

Job

*cough*

[Miilou Suede]

Originally Posted by Nietzsche

*cough*

Job

*cough*

I'm not entirely sure I follow you. Job was very faithful and rewarded for it in the end of the story.

[Nietzsche]

Originally Posted by Miilou Suede

I'm not entirely sure I follow you. Job was very faithful and rewarded for it in the end of the story.

In the inbetween though, God let Satan kill his family, take all of his things, and make him suffer horribly.

Hardly fair. Especially when Satan didn't come up to God and say "I wanna screw with em'". God just randomly started going off about Job.

[Miilou Suede]

Originally Posted by Nietzsche

In the inbetween though, God let Satan kill his family, take all of his things, and make him suffer horribly.

Hardly fair. Especially when Satan didn't come up to God and say "I wanna screw with em'". God just randomly started going off about Job.

Ah. I think the important thing to take away from the Job story is that even though he had lost everything Job continued to persevere and stay true to God. Job has served as a powerful figure of unfaltering faith that many Christians aspire to attain today.

Was it fair (or just) for God to let Satan do this? Absolutely! What Satan didn't realize was how foolish it was to try and "prove God wrong" when God (being omniscient) was well aware of what Job was going to choose. And after all was said and done God's name was glorified because of Job's amazing bulldogged faith. Can you imagine someone like that living next to you who loses absolutely EVERYTHING and not be impressed? Would you ever not want that kind of perfect, emotional security?

I'm off to bed, night!

[GDwarf]

Originally Posted by Miilou Suede

I'm not entirely sure I follow you. Job was very faithful and rewarded for it in the end of the story.

...

Lessee, God makes a completely useless and pointless bet with Satan wagering that Satan can't break Job. He then allows Satan to do everything but kill Job (I should note that he let Satan kill innocents, just because.)

How the hell is that just by any standard?

Originally Posted by Miilou Suede

Was it fair (or just) for God to let Satan do this? Absolutely!

How do you justify that?

What Satan didn't realize was how foolish it was to try and "prove God wrong" when God (being omniscient) was well aware of what Job was going to choose.

Then why not just tell Satan that Job wouldn't betray him?

Also, this means that people who are truly faithful and who live up to all of god's ideals are at the most risk of God smiting them.

How is that just?

How is that fair?


If I know, beyond a doubt, that I can torture your sister and she won't disown your family, does that make it just for me to kidnap her and start doing so? Obviously not. So why does God get a free pass here?

[Sage of Earth]

Originally Posted by GDwarf

If I know, beyond a doubt, that I can torture your sister and she won't disown your family, does that make it just for me to kidnap her and start doing so? Obviously not. So why does God get a free pass here?

Because he's God. And he says so.


To me, the Book of Job is just God showing off exactly how arbitrary his power is. "Hey, look how loyal my servants are JUST because I told them to. I can beat the crap out of them and they practically THANK me for it!"

[zenox24]

im sorry i couldn't help but overreading your topic (lol) but im a christian and im kinda wondering, why athiests are trying to prove us wrong, also. i mean the proof is right there in the bible...


(if any of you go to willow creek in Elmhurst ILL you should know what a very good pastor shane farmer is. he not only preatched on athieism but a-lot of other religions as well, and what they belive in... good sermons, i recomend going willow creek community church at least once in your life time...)

[Sam250]

Originally Posted by zenox24

i mean the proof is right there in the bible...

Oh dear.

Originally Posted by Miilou Suede

Was it fair (or just) for God to let Satan do this? Absolutely! What Satan didn't realize was how foolish it was to try and "prove God wrong" when God (being omniscient) was well aware of what Job was going to choose. And after all was said and done God's name was glorified because of Job's amazing bulldogged faith. Can you imagine someone like that living next to you who loses absolutely EVERYTHING and not be impressed? Would you ever not want that kind of perfect, emotional security?

What?! How on Earth is it fair that God allows Satan to kill Job's innocent family (who we assume are just as devout as Job)?!

PS: By the way, funnily enough I had quite a heated debate with a friend over Reilgion today, and I suppose, in a way, I was pretty set on trying to prove Christianty wrong. So, yeah, I guess it does happen. What Christains have to do is look at this from other peoples point of view- if they hadn't been brought up as a Christain, then they would have no reason to belive that 2000 year old document that they learn about in shcool that states an benevolant sky pixie created the world buy sentances people who don't worship him to hell and is omnipotent but dosn't stop suffering in the world would be real, would they? And so, at some deep physological level, they almost want to enlighten more 'gullible' folk. Religion is just upbringing, after all.

Thats not how I feel, by the way, I just enjoy arguing (the more controvesial the topic, the better), but maybe.

[Miilou Suede]

Originally Posted by GDwarf

...
(I should note that he let Satan kill innocents, just because.)

Well, if they're innocent they get a free pass to Heaven.

How do you justify that?

Scroll down, I'll get to it.

Then why not just tell Satan that Job wouldn't betray him?

That's a good point. I'll touch on that in a bit.

Also, this means that people who are truly faithful and who live up to all of god's ideals are at the most risk of God smiting them.

Absolutely not. Nowhere does it state that all believers will be subject to this kind of extreme testing on earth from Satan with God's permission. It does state believers will face persecution but that'd be from an earthly source. I know God does allow suffering but it's not guaranteed to go all crazy like it did in Job. More on that if ya scroll down.

If I know, beyond a doubt, that I can torture your sister and she won't disown your family, does that make it just for me to kidnap her and start doing so? Obviously not. So why does God get a free pass here?

Here's the problem with your argument. You have absolutely nothing to gain if she doesn't disown my family. I assume you're a fallible, imperfect being like the rest of us and thus you have no justifiable reason to have a desire (or stake) in that people should worship you. God does have that stake. He is truly perfect and DOES deserve that worship. Because He has that stake He has a right to test people in order to strengthen their faith and those who are around them. I think my own faith was strengthened by the story and I know many other believers who feel the exact same way. It's served its purpose (just as the rest of the Bible) in that it brings glory to God. That is why its justifiable.

[Sage of Earth]

Originally Posted by Miilou Suede

Here's the problem with your argument. You have absolutely nothing to gain if she doesn't disown my family. I assume you're a fallible, imperfect being like the rest of us and thus you have no justifiable reason to have a desire (or stake) in that people should worship you. God does have that stake. He is truly perfect and DOES deserve that worship. Because He has that stake He has a right to test people in order to strengthen their faith and those who are around them. I think my own faith was strengthened by the story and I know many other believers who feel the exact same way. It's served its purpose (just as the rest of the Bible) in that it brings glory to God. That is why its justifiable.

What does God want us to worship him for? And why is he, officially the biggest dick the universe could ever know, any more entitled to it than I am, I who care more about the human race than he ever has?

He's only perfect because he says he is. I would say he's nothing of the sort, and just because I'm a human doesn't make that less valid. If anything, it makes it MORE valid. I, here, right now, am able to tell you in no uncertain terms "worship me". God, in his infinite wisdom, has decided to let you take his orders through other people who could just as easily have their own agenda.

He's entitled to worship only because he says so. "Worship me, because I told you to." Under that logic, I'm just as deserving as he is. The only difference is, he's also omniscient and omnipotent, so he knows who will and who won't worship him, and could just as easily MAKE everyone worship him. Which he chooses not to, and therefore has no more influence on anyone than I do. Meaning that there is practically NO difference. If you and I are in a duel, and you are unarmed and I have a gun, if I choose not to use that gun, you and I are on equal footing. Same goes for God vs Man.

You may reply by saying that he created the universe and so we owe it to him to continuously worship him in gratitude. But if someone gives you a gift, you thank them once, maybe a few times depending on what they get you, and then move on with your life. You don't dedicate your entire life to thanking someone who gives you a gift, and just because they gave you a gift doesn't give them a licence to do what they want to you.

And on top of this ruining someone's life is not justified just because it brings glory to someone, no matter who that someone is. If I kill someone's family, then kick him to the floor, and proceed to piss on him, just because my followers will see how awesome I am for having thoroughly humiliated this guy, that doesn't make it justified to do so. And someone who makes a bet with his most hated enemy just to see how cruel they can be to one of his most loyal subjects is nothing worth glorifying, and just because he's omnipotent and omniscient doesn't change anything, because he's actively choosing not to exercise these.

[zenox24]

Originally Posted by Sage of Earth

0/10. Either you've not read the thread at all, or you're trolling poorly.

And a good preacher doesn't make any of what he's saying true.

Oh be quiet do you go to willow creek... no, didn't think so.

you know what just because job was being hit by satan doesn't mean that satan has free control over squat! he had to go to God first, ask for permission to test one of Gods own faithfull followers and even then satan had to follow a list of rules on what not to do to him (Job). one of those rules that we know is, to not acctually touch Job himself.

And for all you athiest who don't believe that there is a God, Please inform me on How you believe we all got here... i want to see what you've got to say.

oh and by the way earth sage, going with what you're saying i guess i can say that your satan and im God but does that realy mean a thing... unless i've created a universe or something, no (unilke God himself who created us)

[Sage of Earth]

Originally Posted by zenox24

Oh be quiet do you go to willow creek... no, didn't think so.

you know what just because job was being hit by satan doesn't mean that satan has free control over squat! he had to go to God first, ask for permission to test one of Gods own faithfull followers and even then satan had to follow a list of rules on what not to do to him (Job). one of those rules that we know is, to not acctually touch Job himself.

And for all you athiest who don't believe that there is a God, Please inform me on How you believe we all got here... i want to see what you've got to say.

oh and by the way earth sage, going with what you're saying i guess i can say that your satan and im God but does that realy mean a thing... unless i've created a universe or something, no (unilke God himself who created us)

So what? I don't owe him anything for creating me. I can say "thanks" but I don't owe an eternal debt of worship. Just like I wouldn't owe you anything if you gave me a gift, beyond "thanks" and perhaps returning a favour later on down the line. This favour, of course, not being dedicating my life to you.

Arguments are all throughout this thread as to your other issues, and no, I don't go to Willow Creek because firstly I don't live anywhere near the place, and secondly I wouldn't want to go to church there even if I did. The preacher would be telling me exactly the same as every other preacher, just in a different way.

[Sam250]

Originally Posted by zenox24

And for all you athiest who don't believe that there is a God, Please inform me on How you believe we all got here... i want to see what you've got to say.

We are all the biological accident of millions of years of evolution on a planet that came about from spare lumps of rock caught in the gravitational field of a star that came about from the recycled helium and hydrogen of a supernova-type explosion caused by disturbances in space and time.

So, for all you theists who believe in a God, please inform me on how you believe God got here... I want to see what you've got to say. Also tell me why you're God is any more true then the God's of many other religions, and why a benevolent God can allow suffering and condemn people to hell for eternity.

[GDwarf]

Originally Posted by zenox24

im sorry i couldn't help but overreading your topic (lol) but im a christian and im kinda wondering, why athiests are trying to prove us wrong,

Depends, really.

"Atheists" aren't a group in the same way that "Christians" are. Individual motivation varies widely.

However, for the most part Atheists are content to not do anything unless someone else brings up their belief first.

Those few who don't tend to hold the opinion that religion is an inherently bad thing or strongly feel that it's simply a form of escapism that prevents people from dealing with the real world and so people should be talked out of it.

also. i mean the proof is right there in the bible...

Circular logic.

Originally Posted by Miilou Suede

Well, if they're innocent they get a free pass to Heaven.

Then why not just kill everyone right now?

Absolutely not. Nowhere does it state that all believers will be subject to this kind of extreme testing on earth from Satan with God's permission. It does state believers will face persecution but that'd be from an earthly source. I know God does allow suffering but it's not guaranteed to go all crazy like it did in Job. More on that if ya scroll down.

Still, he punished Job for being his most loyal follower, and for no purpose. None. He gained nothing, Satan lost nothing. Job lost plenty. Sure he got it back after, but he still has all of that trauma that he went through, which I doubt having more wealth would really help him deal with.

Here's the problem with your argument. You have absolutely nothing to gain if she doesn't disown my family. I assume you're a fallible, imperfect being like the rest of us and thus you have no justifiable reason to have a desire (or stake) in that people should worship you. God does have that stake. He is truly perfect and DOES deserve that worship.

Few things here.

First off, why does he deserve that worship?

Secondly, how does needing people to worship you justify torture? Dictators who try that tend to be universally condemned.

Because He has that stake He has a right to test people in order to strengthen their faith and those who are around them.

No, he doesn't. Not any more than you are justified in trusting your friend's friendship by shooting their family.

I think my own faith was strengthened by the story and I know many other believers who feel the exact same way. It's served its purpose (just as the rest of the Bible) in that it brings glory to God. That is why its justifiable.

Knowing that God could turn on you at any moment just to prove a point strengthened your faith?


Perhaps I should try to let you see the story the way I see it:

Job is incredibly loyal to God. He would do anything for him. God knows this, Job knows this, Satan knows this.
Just for fun, Satan bets God that he can break Job.
God either sees this as funny or feels that he has to prove himself to Satan, so he agrees to the bet. (I fail to see any other justification for it, really.)
Satan then proceeds to destroy Job's life.
After a while he's had his fun and decides to drop the issue.
God then undoes everything Satan did and gives Job a bit more material wealth (which Jesus would later rile against.)

If any human did anything even remotely similar to that we'd all want them condemned.

So, apparently ethics just don't apply to God, and he should be worshipped more because he's willing to mess up people's lives for no good reason.

[zenox24]

Originally Posted by Sage of Earth

So what? I don't owe him anything for creating me. I can say "thanks" but I don't owe an eternal debt of worship. Just like I wouldn't owe you anything if you gave me a gift, beyond "thanks" and perhaps returning a favour later on down the line. This favour, of course, not being dedicating my life to you.

Arguments are all throughout this thread as to your other issues, and no, I don't go to Willow Creek because firstly I don't live anywhere near the place, and secondly I wouldn't want to go to church there even if I did. The preacher would be telling me exactly the same as every other preacher, just in a different way.

HE has the power to destroy you, yet you are here living out the life that HE has given to you the way you want it. what would you do if he came right up to you and said that you are not worthy to come to heaven?

[Nietzsche]

Originally Posted by zenox24

HE has the power to destroy you, yet you are here living out the life that HE has given to you the way you want it. what would you do if he came right up to you and said that you are not worthy to come to heaven?

[Sam250]

Originally Posted by Sage of Earth

So what? I don't owe him anything for creating me. I can say "thanks" but I don't owe an eternal debt of worship. Just like I wouldn't owe you anything if you gave me a gift, beyond "thanks" and perhaps returning a favour later on down the line. This favour, of course, not being dedicating my life to you.

The problem is, of course, that God did not give you a gift, he gave you you're life, and expects your life back. So, yes, that makes sense.

What really dosen't make sense is that he creates us with the intent of exepting us to worship him and dedicate his life to him. He creates us purely for worship? Is this it? Why create us at all, then?

We owe him everything, and yet the reason we exist is to owe him everything?

[Nietzsche]

Originally Posted by Sam250

The problem is, of course, that God did not give you a gift, he gave you you're life, and expects your life back. So, yes, that makes sense.

What really dosen't make sense is that he creates us with the intent of exepting us to worship him and dedicate his life to him. He creates us purely for worship? Is this it? Why create us at all, then?

We owe him everything, and yet the reason we exist is to owe him everything?

I don't recall asking to be born.