National Pride

[Sage of Earth]

Trying to be proud of your nation is just looking for a reason to be proud of yourself. If you have no good qualities of your own, you look towards the patch of land that you were lucky enough to be born on for qualities that you can brag about. If you were born in a country that hasn't got a very good history or reputation, you will look towards the countries your parents or grandparents come from for a source of pride.

Most people who are confident in themselves almost never bring their country into a conversation or argument, and can often even make fun of their own country since they don't honestly care.

Furthermore, a country is an area over which a particular government resides. Therefore, loyalty to your country is loyalty to your government, which is precisely what your government wants so that it can incite patriotism to force people to fulfill their wishes, among other reasons.

These may or may not be my views. Discuss.

[Artorium]

Nationalism as a sense or word has gotten a bad name in the last several years I would say. I think it’s due to the whole Terrorism thing that’s been going down in Iraq vs. USA.
It’s good to be proud of your background, heritage, where you grew up and your home. Your country has history that’s made it what it is today and people have given their lives for this so in my mind National Pride is a good thing. I love my country and to me it’s the best place on earth because its home. Everyone should feel a sense of homeliness about where they live. I don’t say my country is better than yours because to each individual it’s their home…if I do ever its just dry British humor.
People are scared that we will fall into extremity of Nationalism.
But isn’t that how our countries where made? By people who put their necks out for our countries. That’s a personal opinion that only you as an individual can decide but I do not believe in any violent nationalism or racism. That’s an extremity because as humans we are all equal and should treat each other as so.
Nationalism should remain, like many other broad subjects in our world a neutral believe and seen as a moral builder for the proudness of where you live. In turn this would only benefit the community of our earth. Pride of our backgrounds is what creates the soul and spirit of a culture in a country. Again, we are all equal…but a sense or national pride is healthy.

[camkik]

I don't see anything wrong with being proud of where you come from and/or live. I feel very lucky to have been born in this great country. While I look up to and admire the culture of other countries, I can't ever see myself moving out of the United States.

I say this without putting much regard into the current situation (Iraq / Bush / etc). Both of which are things I actually am not proud of. But all things come to an end so I have just waited patiently for the next successor to take the current President's place and (hopefully) make things better.

Anyway! It's fine to be proud of where you're from, even if you have qualities of your own to admire. As long as people don't take it too far to where it borders on fascism (no more "racial cleansing" episodes all right? We don't want another Holocaust on our hands) then everything is fine. Everything in moderation.

(Though I do find it irritating when I see "flip/latino/gangsta/etc pride" graffiti'd to my desk at school)

[Flames of Valor]

How dare you take a shot at me!

Not really, but seriously, whats wrong with being proud of your country? It isn't a crutch. It's a priviledge people need to respect that priviladge more than they normally do. Furthermore the government is powerless without it's people, so they need us.

Besides I can always be proud of myself for being right all the time or just for being dead sexy.

[Sage of Earth]

People are, and should, in my view, only be proud of something they've achieved. If I have worked towards a goal, and then that goal comes to fruition, I can be proud of that. Parents tend to be proud of their children when they achieve something because that means that, indirectly, they've had a hand in it. They think that they caused the child to grow and achieve something, and may very well have done.

Being proud of your country, however, seems to me like being proud of the coincidence of your birth. Your country may have achieved many things, but you might not have anything to do with it, so it just seems like leeching off someone else's success. Like the kind of people who are, or were, friends with celebrities and then try to take credit for it.

It's also like when somebody is proud of a fluke, or an element of chance. Like, for example, if an artist accidentally spills a pot of paint on his work, and then someone comes along, claims it's art, and then he takes credit for it. This is different to feeling "lucky" or "fortunate" or "grateful" for the element of chance, he is actively parading around as if he had a part in it.

Someone who is grateful for where they were born, or feels fortunate or lucky that they were born somewhere, is an entirely different matter. I'm grateful, for example, that I was born in Britain rather than in some poor third-world country, since it means I've had a relatively good life in comparison to them.

I don't mean to insult anyone mind you, I mean I indulge in Welsh Nationalism now and again but that's usually only when it comes to rugby and joking around with English people On any other basis, I don't consider myself as being of any nation, I simply consider myself human.

So, Flames of Valour, I answer your question with a question - Why should somebody be proud of the coincidence of the location of their birth?

[GDwarf]

Well, being proud of one's country is okay, provided that you're also willing to be just as proud of other countries that do similar things.


So, you shouldn't be proud because it is "your country" (well, if you're born there, if you immigrated that changes it a bit, nothing wrong with being proud for making the right choice.) but because it's a group of people doing good things.


Which, of course, means that I'm dead-set against the "My country, right or wrong" attitude that consistently refuses to die.

[Sage of Earth]

Being proud of a group of people doing good things is fair enough. This usually isn't on a national scale, however. A nation is divided. No matter how large, or how small, there are all kinds of different people in a nation, and so you can't be proud of the achievements of everyone in it. That's taking credit for nothing of your own, and trying to side with all kinds of different people at once. If my country does something good, I don't say "we", I say "they", as in "The government" usually, or if someone from this country is influencing something in the world, I still say "they" referring to the individual or the organization responsible. To say "We" about national achievements is to imply that a country is a collective, which might as well eliminate the idea of individuality.

Also as perhaps a sidenote people are so quick to jump on the nationalist bandwagon when the government is achieving something, but as soon as the government goes to pot, they dissassociate the government from themselves despite the fact that the government is the very essence of what a country is. In a democracy it's the people that are responsible for a particular government being there in the first place.

[Hombre de Mundo]

I for one am very proud of being Swedish. You may have noticed (yay, the smileys are back to normal!) However, I'm not proud of it for any particular reason. I don't consider the virtues of my country to be greater than any other country's though. As such, I'm one of those who is proud of his place of birth, as some of you just said. So... what's wrong with that? As long as I don't consider myself better than you are because of it, I can't see what anyone shouldn't be.

I like it when things turn out good for my country, and I wish the best for it. As such, I'm considered a nationalist. Though I'm far from one of those bad nationalists you keep hearing about.

I do absolutely see the many flaws of my country, and I sometimes get pretty pissed because of the idiocy our government rule the country with. I love my country, but not my government, so I have to disagree with whoever said otherwise (my computer is half frozen, so I can't scroll down and check who said it).

While I'm being proud of my country, that doesn't mean I need something to rely on because I myself hasn't achieved anything. On the contrary, I'm very proud of myself as a person. I know I'm a great guy and that I've made people's lives better. It's nothing I brag with, I'm not that kind of guy who goes around thinking I'm better than anyone else, far from it.

I love my country, but it's no more than a country. As such, I can make fun of it and let other people make fun of it as well (it doesn't harm anyone, so...). Then again, I believe that we should be able to make fun of just about everything (almost), so you might wanna ask someone else when it comes to that.

So my point is that it's deffinately okay to be proud of ones country for no other reason than being born there, and there's nothing wrong with wishing the best for it, as long as you dont consider yourself better because of it and as long as you don't start putting your naton in front of more important things.

[Flames of Valor]

Originally Posted by Sage of Earth

So, Flames of Valour, I answer your question with a question - Why should somebody be proud of the coincidence of the location of their birth?

I don't love my country simply because I was born here. I love it because of how it was founded, the principles upon which it was founded and the unity and determination of the people that live here along side me. I feel privileged to live under my flag and my laws and rights. Thus I feel it is my duty to commend such noble actions.

Does that answer it?

[Sage of Earth]

Well, I suppose it is AN answer sure. But you talk about the "unity" and "determination" of the American people, which brings something else to light - people will only complain about generalization when it's negative As we all know, the people of any country are far from united, and many people would gladly sell their own country down the river for a few quid/bucks, especially in Western society where capitalism is rife.

What you're talking about is the stereotypical image of the American patriot. So, am I right to say you're proud of the stereotype? Or is it the case that everyone you know from your country happens to be in a similar state of mind?

Also you say it's your duty to "commend" such actions, in my opinion this isn't the same as pride. Commending someone is acknowledging their credit, pride is taking your own credit. Loving your country is also not the same as pride, the way I see it. I can love a TV series without being proud of it (unless I created it). Being proud of something doesn't usually mean you owe a duty to it either.

Therefore to love a nation is fine, or at least to be grateful for living there, to acknowledge your nation's historical achievements is fair enough, but to be proud of it? I don't understand how that's actually possible, and yet somehow people are.

So, in light of this, would you still use the word "pride" to describe what you feel about your country?

[Nietzsche]

Originally Posted by Flames of Valor

How dare you take a shot at me!

Not really, but seriously, whats wrong with being proud of your country? It isn't a crutch. It's a priviledge people need to respect that priviladge more than they normally do. Furthermore the government is powerless without it's people, so they need us.

Besides I can always be proud of myself for being right all the time or just for being dead sexy.

Why be proud of a nation, or a race, ect? You were born here by chance, and nothing but chance. You did nothing the people who founded the nation did. You have nothing to be proud of. George Washington could be proud. But you can't. You can be happy, but you can't be proud.

[Flames of Valor]

Originally Posted by Nietzsche

Why be proud of a nation, or a race, ect? You were born here by chance, and nothing but chance. You did nothing the people who founded the nation did. You have nothing to be proud of. George Washington could be proud. But you can't. You can be happy, but you can't be proud.

Yes I can be proud, but not for myself. Like I said, I am proud of my country. I can be proud at myself for other things.

[Nietzsche]

Originally Posted by Flames of Valor

Yes I can be proud, but not for myself. Like I said, I am proud of my country. I can be proud at myself for other things.

You. Cannot be proud. Of anything. That isn't. Your own. Doings. You can be happy, but not proud. Pride is reserved for works of your own, not others.

[Igna]

Originally Posted by Nietzsche

You. Cannot be proud. Of anything. That isn't. Your own. Doings. You can be happy, but not proud. Pride is reserved for works of your own, not others.

Quite clearly, it isn't. You're confusing can't and shouldn't. It's actually very easy to be proud of something that you didn't make/do. Should you? That's the real debate.

The simple fact is that numerous cultures and nationalities would have died out long ago if not for cultural/national pride. There's a pretty clear purpose for it.

Whether that's a good or bad thing is a bit stickier, but I would say that there is much more to it than "insecurity".

[Sage of Earth]

I think he means "can't" in the same way you "can't" just watch as someone bleeds to death. It's physically possible, sure. Basically in the context of "shouldn't", but people can use "can't" too.

[Igna]

Originally Posted by Sage of Earth

I think he means "can't" in the same way you "can't" just watch as someone bleeds to death. It's physically possible, sure. Basically in the context of "shouldn't", but people can use "can't" too.

The only problem is that he wasn't saying why you shouldn't, just that you shouldn't.

[Sage of Earth]

Okay, but I explained why you shouldn't in my last post before that.

[Artorium]

But Sage, the Welsh people are one of the most pridefull nations on earth...i should know i am welsh. ''Cymru am Byth'' for example but theres a difference between an extreme Nationalism where you think your country is supirior to others and a proudness of your homeland. The later being heathly and the first being not.

[Sage of Earth]

Well, of course they are, and for a while I was all too active to participate in this. But since I speak to my own parents in English (even though they speak Welsh among themselves), yet with pretty much everyone else in Welsh, and I got several accusations of not being proud of my country for relatively minor things, I started to think about it. Then I came to my conclusions, which you can see above, and realised I think more about my own qualities than the qualities of the country which I was just assimilating for reasons I don't even remember anymore. Possibly to fit in?

In Ireland, so long as you feel Irish, you might as well BE Irish. Not so in Wales. You have to speak Welsh, read Welsh, and watch S4C 24/7 even though some of the programming is actually quite poor before you even have a shot at being considered Welsh.

Not to say I think with a more "Wales has been conquered" mindset, which I don't, but I don't hold favour with either the English or the Welsh. I think it's a sad day when neighbouring countries refuse to get along. I mean even I joke about "my" nation when it comes to rugby (because we all know that rugby is the national sport, and Wales are awesome at it ), but I know a girl who, while not being horribly nationalistic, hates English people on sight, and sometimes even refuses to speak English on that basis. She also wears her Welsh Rugby shirt all day every day which is a bit odd.

So, if you're Welsh how come you have an American flag eh? You may be in America but what happened to Cymru Am Byth?

[Shikaino]

You could say that I am proud to be Australian, especially now that Anzac day is coming up this Friday. Proud of the accomplishments that a band of Australians made throughout the years and the way the community always bands together in a crisis situation.
I don't really think that we're better than any other country, though. We sure have made a name four ourselves throughout history, haven't we ;p

[Sage of Earth]

Well there are people who still think of Australia as an island founded on criminals that Britain couldn't afford to put in prison, but yeah.