Third Graders Plot Murder

[Tazryl]

Just a few moments ago I overheard something very disturbing on the news. Its one thing to hear about this when teenagers and young adults are involved. Do not get me wrong, I find it quite disturbing. This is much different.

In Waycross, GA a bunch of third graders ages 8 to 10 (according to the news program) plotted to kill a teacher after the teacher punished one of them... according to this scource. Experts dubious about kids' plot - Crime & courts - MSNBC.com it was for standing on a chair. Although I seriously hope this was not why. These 3rd graders intended to, knock the teacher unconcious, handcuff them, and then stab.

I couldnt believe this at first. Thinking this was all some joke. Sadly it is not.

Not sure how many of you have actually heard about this disturbing event. I just hope this was more of an isolated event.

[UZ!]

You have to remember that the kids probably don't truly get the concept of death. They just know "if we get rid of the mean teacher, we won't have to deal with him."

Or maybe they're sadistic evil murderers. I dunno.

[squall24]

I wouldn't doubt it. The things that some parents let their kids do is unbelievable. I've heard language from an eight year olds mouth that you wouldn't believe. If they're already learning how to curse, I'm willing to bet they know a bit about violence too. This may have part to do with the media and what is available for everyday viewing, but ultimately the parents of the children are to blame.

[Tazryl]

Its more of the idea that they actually thought this out. They had obtained handcuffs, a knife, and something to actually knock the teacher out with.

All this because some student couldnt stand on a chair, or so says the source I linked to.

[Λύσις]

I blame television.

No, seriously. The violent shows that some parents will let their kids watch, or simply don't know that they're watching because they leave them unsupervised, is unbelievable. It wouldn't be hard for a third grader to get the idea to plan a murder if they watched enough violent television.

[Rew]

Originally Posted by squall24

I wouldn't doubt it. The things that some parents let their kids do is unbelievable. I've heard language from an eight year olds mouth that you wouldn't believe. If they're already learning how to curse, I'm willing to bet they know a bit about violence too. This may have part to do with the media and what is available for everyday viewing, but ultimately the parents of the children are to blame.

Slippery slope problem with this argument. How precisely does it follow that allowing children to cuss will result in children who plot to torture their teacher over a petty punishment? One by no means leads to the other.

Originally Posted by Lysis

I blame television.

No, seriously. The violent shows that some parents will let their kids watch, or simply don't know that they're watching because they leave them unsupervised, is unbelievable. It wouldn't be hard for a third grader to get the idea to plan a murder if they watched enough violent television.

If you're going to blame television, you're only one step away from blaming video games--for unlike TV, which is a passive phenomena, video games are active, so the children are actually learning to simulate killing.

But I don't think you want to make that argument on a video game forum...

[squall24]

Originally Posted by Rew

Slippery slope problem with this argument. How precisely does it follow that allowing children to cuss will result in children who plot to torture their teacher over a petty punishment? One by no means leads to the other.

You misunderstand what I wrote, or maybe I worded it wrong. What I meant was if children this young can pick up on cursing, than it is of know surprise they can pick up on other habits they might view. I'm not saying that a child will torture based on cursing, but the thought of violence can be just as easily learned as a new curse word.

[Solink]

Originally Posted by Lysis

I blame television.

No, seriously. The violent shows that some parents will let their kids watch, or simply don't know that they're watching because they leave them unsupervised, is unbelievable. It wouldn't be hard for a third grader to get the idea to plan a murder if they watched enough violent television.

No, it's the parent's fault. Really, there's ALWAYS going to be something bad on, and they best they can do is the "Viewer Discretion is Advised" intro. They can't handle or babysit kids; parents should be aware of what they're watching.
If you watched South Park episode "Death", you would understand...

[Λύσις]

Originally Posted by Rew

If you're going to blame television, you're only one step away from blaming video games--for unlike TV, which is a passive phenomena, video games are active, so the children are actually learning to simulate killing.

But I don't think you want to make that argument on a video game forum...

Do you disagree with me though? If a third grader, who's mind is surely still growing and learning and hasn't developed quite as much as, say, a tenth grader, watching a murder or such on television could lead to the third grader getting the idea to plan a murder himself. Especially since they don't truely understand the concept of death; television makes death and murder such a common and less-than-serious thing to someone who doesn't understand it completely anyway. By no means does it happen to every third grader who watches CSI or whatnot, but I'd honestly be surprised if it never happened. And of course, I'm sure this applies to video games too, although those are typically less realistic. I should also make it clear that I don't necessarily think that this specific case was caused by television, I only think that it's likely or possible, and there are most likely plenty of other factors involved.

As for the whole children swearing thing, I think the poster's point was that some children are not as well brought up by their parents and are not as "good" as well disciplined children, which is sort of true.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Solink

No, it's the parent's fault. Really, there's ALWAYS going to be something bad on, and they best they can do is the "Viewer Discretion is Advised" intro. They can't handle or babysit kids; parents should be aware of what they're watching.
If you watched South Park episode "Death", you would understand...

I agree that it is the parents responsibility to keep their children from watching such television shows and I'm pretty sure I mentioned something to that extent.

[The Unsung Hero]

Originally Posted by Lysis

I blame television.

No, seriously. The violent shows that some parents will let their kids watch, or simply don't know that they're watching because they leave them unsupervised, is unbelievable. It wouldn't be hard for a third grader to get the idea to plan a murder if they watched enough violent television.

This thread is now about how television affects child development.

I'm writing a paper on this for English class, and it's a really interesting topic. These days parents seems to use television as as a babysitter for their children rather than a light entertainment source, or even a family activity. The problem with television is that it's teacher of expectations. Long gone are the days where a plot in a television show, or even in movies will slowly develop or blossom into something worthwhile. We demand shorter build ups and quicker punchlines. We want to get to the point. But also, these shows have gotta crackle and pop if they want to keep our attention.

I think this affects children in that they are taught that they should be able to demand everything right this instant, when in fact this is not the way the world works. But it is interesting in that a study done some time ago (in the late 1970's, I'm sorry I'm unable to locate an online source and I don't have a scanner to provide a PDF) was done on pre-school age children watching the Mr. Rogers Show, and compared different types of viewings to their reactions in specific social activites, like playing with other children. I was surprised to find out that their level of social interaction and empathetic capacity was notably enhanced only when a mediator was present to reinterpret or re-engage the children regarding the message that Mr. Rogers was providing. In short, only when watching the show became interactive rather than observative did it have an impact.

I think in this specific case, there were probably a lot of variables that went into this that we are unaware of.

But nonetheless, I can definately see where you're coming from.

[Rew]

Originally Posted by squall24

You misunderstand what I wrote, or maybe I worded it wrong. What I meant was if children this young can pick up on cursing, than it is of know surprise they can pick up on other habits they might view. I'm not saying that a child will torture based on cursing, but the thought of violence can be just as easily learned as a new curse word.

I was mainly questioning the link between cussing and the performing of physical violence.

Originally Posted by Lysis

Do you disagree with me though? If a third grader, who's mind is surely still growing and learning and hasn't developed quite as much as, say, a tenth grader, watching a murder or such on television could lead to the third grader getting the idea to plan a murder himself. Especially since they don't truely understand the concept of death; television makes death and murder such a common and less-than-serious thing to someone who doesn't understand it completely anyway. By no means does it happen to every third grader who watches CSI or whatnot, but I'd honestly be surprised if it never happened. And of course, I'm sure this applies to video games too, although those are typically less realistic. I should also make it clear that I don't necessarily think that this specific case was caused by television, I only think that it's likely or possible, and there are most likely plenty of other factors involved.

Yeah, I wouldn't doubt that it has an impact. And when it comes to strange and particularly deplorable cases like this, it does become a true mystery. I think we might be on safe ground to argue that an overall cultural callous to violence probably contributed to this.

As for the whole children swearing thing, I think the poster's point was that some children are not as well brought up by their parents and are not as "good" as well disciplined children, which is sort of true.

Indeed. But who can say in this present instance?

I agree that it is the parents responsibility to keep their children from watching such television shows and I'm pretty sure I mentioned something to that extent.[/color]

For all we know, the parents could've done the best they could for the children and are just as shocked and appalled as the rest of the world at this plot. But also, they could be neglectful or abusive and brought this on too. I guess we don't actually know anything about the parents at this point in time. (I'm not saying you were blaming the parents, but I know people in general like to point at them first as an easy scapegoat, and I'm just trying to guard against that.)

[squall24]

Originally Posted by Rew

I was mainly questioning the link between cussing and the performing of physical violence.

There really isn't one, just thoughts of violence are easily picked up on much like new vocab is easy to learn. Also if no one is there to tell the child there are repercussions for their actions they are more likely to act out what they are thinking.

[Λύσις]

Originally Posted by Rew

For all we know, the parents could've done the best they could for the children and are just as shocked and appalled as the rest of the world at this plot. But also, they could be neglectful or abusive and brought this on too. I guess we don't actually know anything about the parents at this point in time. (I'm not saying you were blaming the parents, but I know people in general like to point at them first as an easy scapegoat, and I'm just trying to guard against that.)

I wasn't necessarily referring to this certain instance but rather saying that if a problem as such was caused by the child watching violent television, then the parents would most likely bear much of the responsibility for allowing the children to do so.

[Rew]

Originally Posted by squall24

There really isn't one, just thoughts of violence are easily picked up on much like new vocab is easy to learn. Also if no one is there to tell the child there are repercussions for their actions they are more likely to act out what they are thinking.

With that I agree, particularly the last sentence.

Originally Posted by Lysis

I wasn't necessarily referring to this certain instance but rather saying that if a problem as such was caused by the child watching violent television, then the parents would most likely bear much of the responsibility for allowing the children to do so.

In which case, I would be inclined to agree with you, at least to a certain extent.

[The Shademan]

You guys are aware these were special needs children, not standard third-graders? It's not as if a bunch of neurotypical, perfectly sane children tried something.

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Prince Shade

You guys are aware these were special needs children, not standard third-graders? It's not as if a bunch of neurotypical, perfectly sane children tried something.

Do you have a link for that?
I'm not trying to challenge you, I'd just be interested to read it. :]

But it is interesting in that a study done some time ago (in the late 1970's, I'm sorry I'm unable to locate an online source and I don't have a scanner to provide a PDF) was done on pre-school age children watching the Mr. Rogers Show, and compared different types of viewings to their reactions in specific social activites, like playing with other children. I was surprised to find out that their level of social interaction and empathetic capacity was notably enhanced only when a mediator was present to reinterpret or re-engage the children regarding the message that Mr. Rogers was providing. In short, only when watching the show became interactive rather than observative did it have an impact.

Was it one of Bandura's studies?

[The Shademan]

Third-graders plotted attack on teacher, police say | ajc.com

Originally Posted by Above Link, AJC

The alleged target is a veteran educator who teaches third-grade students with a range of learning disabilities, including attention deficit disorder, delayed development and hyperactivity, friends and parents said.

I know it's not exactly explanatory of the whole ordeal, since it's still something you don't expect to see, but delayed development and hyperactivity, plus whatever else those kids might have had, plus peer pressure, could have been a powerful agent contributing toward this gang behavior.

[Ogmios22188]

Originally Posted by Prince Shade

Third-graders plotted attack on teacher, police say | ajc.com



I know it's not exactly explanatory of the whole ordeal, since it's still something you don't expect to see, but delayed development and hyperactivity, plus whatever else those kids might have had, plus peer pressure, could have been a powerful agent contributing toward this gang behavior.

And whatever medication they were on.

[Margar]

Originally Posted by Prince Shade

I know it's not exactly explanatory of the whole ordeal, since it's still something you don't expect to see, but delayed development and hyperactivity, plus whatever else those kids might have had, plus peer pressure, could have been a powerful agent contributing toward this gang behavior.

I'm mostly of the opinion that crappy parenting can be blamed for developmental and behavioral disorders. parents who fail to teach and guide their children, who've let their kids stay up watching tv, with shows like csi (which is most likely where children would get the idea to use gloves, handcuffs, and stuff to clean up blood with, etc...) combined with the rampant idea that no one is accountable for their own problems, let alone their children's problems, can be pointed out as the cause of schemes like this.

Why are so many kids today pronounced ADD or developmentally delayed? not because there's something in the water harming the kid's brains, but because of crappy parenting. lack of stucture, dicipline, guidance, nuturing, and setting a good example is to blame for most problems kids have, not just a simple medical condition. I think most kids who are diagnosed as ADD are just victims of lax parenting and people would rather medicate their childrem for their whole childhoods, rather than raise their child right.

that's all
*steps down from soap box feeling 60 years older*