Creationism vs. Evolution

[Soren707]

As said in GDwarf's "Can Evolution Coincide with Creationism" thread, he specifically stated that another thread could be started since that one was a year old.

So, can evolution really be consolidated with creation? Is there proof in the Bible that evolution was apparent? Please discuss.

[Surio]

Micro evolution, sure. That one's proven isn't it? Other than that I don't think Creationism and Evolution can coincide unless we use the "every day was symbolic for a billion years" thing. This doesn't work. Why? The bible said that the first day (or second, can't remember) was day and evening, I think, and that would make it 24 hours. Somewhere later on it says all the days were the same length. And all life was created on the sixth day, so unless the evolution of humanity took one day, it doesn't work.

[GDwarf]

If you're a biblical literalist, then it can't work, sure.


But why not see it as an allegory? Or a left-over creation myth? Or an adaptation of a popular creation myth? Or, or, or, the list is endless.

[Soren707]

Originally Posted by Surio

Micro evolution, sure. That one's proven isn't it? Other than that I don't think Creationism and Evolution can coincide unless we use the "every day was symbolic for a billion years" thing. This doesn't work. Why? The bible said that the first day (or second, can't remember) was day and evening, I think, and that would make it 24 hours. Somewhere later on it says all the days were the same length. And all life was created on the sixth day, so unless the evolution of humanity took one day, it doesn't work.

I completely agree, but what I actually mean is, is long term evolution (Millions and millions of years.) viable?

I would say no because where in the Bible does it explain that evolution occurred over a period of time? It does not say anything about evolution. Evolution is something humanity created to try to fill in the missing gaps in the past so we feel like we accomplished something. If we evolved, where did we evolve from? A combination of atoms? Liquid? How flawed and impossible that is.

[Surio]

Originally Posted by Soren 177

I completely agree, but what I actually mean is, is long term evolution (Millions and millions of years.) viable?

I would say no because where in the Bible does it explain that evolution occurred over a period of time? It does not say anything about evolution. Evolution is something humanity created to try to fill in the missing gaps in the past so we feel like we accomplished something. If we evolved, where did we evolve from? A combination of atoms? Liquid? How flawed and impossible that is.

Well, there's always the argument that "Genesis is symbolic" (which is what GDwarf suggested, I think) but I don't think that THAT works either. Or rather, it's unbiblical.
For God to tell people something and expect them to believe it, it's either true or a lie, and God doesn't lie, so it's true. That's how I see it anyway.

[GDwarf]

Originally Posted by Soren 177

I completely agree, but what I actually mean is, is long term evolution (Millions and millions of years.) viable?

I would say no because where in the Bible does it explain that evolution occurred over a period of time? It does not say anything about evolution. Evolution is something humanity created to try to fill in the missing gaps in the past so we feel like we accomplished something. If we evolved, where did we evolve from? A combination of atoms? Liquid? How flawed and impossible that is.

I think you misunderstand what evolution is.


The theory of evolution states just this: Species change over time.


I think we can all agree that this is, in fact, true.


In addition, Soren, the Bible doesn't mention dinosaurs, are we to assume that they didn't exist? It doesn't mention asteroids, are they figments of our imagination? It doesn't mention nuclear fusion, is it just a hoax?

Originally Posted by Surio

Well, there's always the argument that "Genesis is symbolic" (which is what GDwarf suggested, I think) but I don't think that THAT works either. Or rather, it's unbiblical.
For God to tell people something and expect them to believe it, it's either true or a lie, and God doesn't lie, so it's true. That's how I see it anyway.

But God didn't write the Bible.

[Surio]

[quote=GDwarf;2089055]

I think we can all agree that this is, in fact, true.

I actually agree here, I think. Well, kind of. I don't, however, think that something can ever become something else. For example: A bacteria can become immune to some anti-bacteria thing, but it still is, and always be, a bacteria, no matter how many billion years pass.

In addition, Soren, the Bible doesn't mention dinosaurs.

Well, it doesn't use the word dinosaurs, obviously, that term was invented way after. It does, however, talk of dragons and behemoths that are described like brontosauruses and things like that. So we can't say for sure that it doesn't mention dinosaurs.

But God didn't write the Bible.

Perhaps not, but He told people to write what He willed to be written. So, assuming God exists (which I do) then He'd have stepped in if anything extra was added into the Bible/Torah.

[GDwarf]

Originally Posted by Surio

I actually agree here, I think. Well, kind of. I don't, however, think that something can ever become something else. For example: A bacteria can become immune to some anti-bacteria thing, but it still is, and always be, a bacteria, no matter how many billion years pass.

Why?

After all, all that is required to make different species is for lots of little changes to add up over time.

Well, it doesn't use the word dinosaurs, obviously, that term was invented way after. It does, however, talk of dragons and behemoths that are described like brontosauruses and things like that. So we can't say for sure that it doesn't mention dinosaurs.

I think we can say with some certainty that it doesn't, unless dinosaurs also co-existed with King Arthur.

[Soren707]

Originally Posted by GDwarf

I think you misunderstand what evolution is.

No, no, no. Evolution is the development of a species (Which is incorrect since we were created the way we always and will ever be.). If scientists think we developed from a bunch of atoms, then how could these atoms be created? What is the precursor to all that? I'd say there wasn't suddenly atoms that were under constant pressure and heat. Anyways, nature is random and filled with flaws. However, God is flawless and so says His Word, there is no mention of us being apes, monkeys, or orangutans. If this so happened over millions of years, then why don't scientists try this experiment and see what the outcome is (That is, if humanity still exists on earth.)?

I'll bring this up. What was the precursor to God? He always existed. Yes, people would deny this because they cannot comprehend this. Our minds need to see boundaries and not just infinite lines. That's why we created the Big Bang and evolution, so we can be satisfied with boundaries and certain of events. That way, we're in control.

[Igna]

No, no, no. Evolution is the development of a species (Which is incorrect since we were created the way we always and will ever be.).

So you're contending that species have never changed and never will change in the slightest? That would be a very hard position to maintain, since scientific experiments could prove otherwise.

After all, small evolution can take place in a matter of only a couple of years.

[GDwarf]

Originally Posted by Soren 177

No, no, no. Evolution is the development of a species (Which is incorrect since we were created the way we always and will ever be.).

Er, no it isn't.

Evolution can lead to the development of a species, yes, but it is not defined as the creation of new species.


Also, if we are created the way "we always and will ever be", then what of Neanderthals? Cro-Magnon men? Australopithecus? Java man? Peiking man?

If scientists think we developed from a bunch of atoms, then how could these atoms be created? What is the precursor to all that? I'd say there wasn't suddenly atoms that were under constant pressure and heat.

What?

I'm not sure what it is you're asking here, and it sure doesn't sound like any scientific theory about the origin of life. (Which, by the way, evolution has nothing to do with.)

Anyways, nature is random and filled with flaws. However, God is flawless and so says His Word, there is no mention of us being apes, monkeys, or orangutans.

We are currently apes.

No one ever claimed that we were monkeys or orangutans, though.

If this so happened over millions of years, then why don't scientists try this experiment and see what the outcome is (That is, if humanity still exists on earth.)?

How would they do that?

However, the creation of new species has been observed.

Big Bang and evolution, so we can be satisfied with boundaries and certain of events. That way, we're in control.

Since one of the big parts of evolution is that it's semi-random, I fail to see how that puts us in control.

Please don't speculate on the psychological motivation of beliefs unless you know what those beliefs are and can justify your assertion.

[Hyrule Phoenix]

Originally Posted by GDwarf

What?

I'm not sure what it is you're asking here, and it sure doesn't sound like any scientific theory about the origin of life. (Which, by the way, evolution has nothing to do with.)



.

I think he means, where did atoms come from? what started it all?

[GDwarf]

Well, I think I covered that in some depth in my post on the big bang.


Also, that has nothing really to do with the creation of life.

[Tazryl]

I fail to see why animals couldnt evolve and how its against religon. You could say that God created everything as it is now. Yet I have figured a loop hole of sorts.

I mean lets say that if a species evolves over the years that every so often it changed. Well you could claim that God created each offspring. To him each one could be labeled something different. Like Monkey A. The original, its ancestor who underwent some micromutationthingy, would be Monkey B. God still created both monkeys as they were but to a scientist it just evolved.

Hmm that probably made no sense what so ever.

But basicly its that god created each animal as they are, yet they still evolved over time.

I think there is a reason why god didnt have the bible written down with everything there is to know about the universe and everything around us.

He simply wanted us to explore it. He gave us the ability to explore things that are never mentioned in the bible... why? I mean GDwarf pointed this out earlier. The bible says nothing about other galaxies(to my knowledge anyways) Yet we know they exist.

I just think that god wants us to explore the universe he gave us. This is backed by nothing but my personal belief.

I also think that the bible was written in away for the people to understand. If it were written today with our knowledge of the world and such it could actually be something we would understand. I mean go back a thousand years and try and explain half the stuff we use everyday. They would stare at you blankly and call you crazy!

But hey I could be wrong.

[Sam250]

I think we are probally getting a little too wound up in Christian beliefs here. The thread is Evolution vs Creationisn, not Evolution vs The Old Testaments Veiw Of Creationism.

I say yes, Creationisn and Evolutionisn can coincide with each other. God starts big bang. God creates a tiny microbe, gives it a soul and waits to see what happens. He dosn't expect us to be the end result. Or maybe he does, and evolution is just a term describing the millions of years of experimentaion of god to find a near perfect design.

*shrug*

[Liquid Fire]

I always love this topic because it kinda kicks Christianity right in the nads and then they squirm.

The bible says that god created the entire world in 7 days etc. and made humans as we are now (cept of course they had no belly button) so when theorizing we evolved from other beings it kind of sets the Christian rant about us all being created on fire. Also God invented the week? That must be an edit right there, time was something we created (not as a whole, just how we keep it)

So we keep the day by a cycle of the sun coming up, going down, the moon coming up, going down and the sun being back again, thats a day. Yet the bible doesn't mention space, not even sure if it mentions the sun. So if the sun is in outer space and the bible doesn't mention space doesn't that give the impression the bible implies that space doesn't exist and that the sun exists just for our life (then why would other planets exist?)

So doesn't the fact space exists prove god (as the bible describes) doesn't?

[GDwarf]

Liquid, tone down your posts, yes?

We're trying to avoid flame wars, not start them.

[Tazryl]

I love how we all seem to think we know how god works. We get caught up in literal translations and all that.

Seven Days for who? God or us? For all we know seven days to god is like... a millenium to us. Not saying he couldnt do it all within our 7 days, but there is no proof that thats how it all worked out.

I kinda like to think of it like a MMO thats always being updated and altered. in the begining God created everything, in this case all the computer code things. So for seven days he creates everything, fine. But then he 'uploads' it and thus his work is playable online... so to speak. Everytime a species goes under some change, that is god just allowing the 'updates' to take place. so that that species can change to its enviorment.

So god created us as we are, as he did everything else. Fine. That doesnt mean we couldnt have evolved. In the begining we are created as its described, but when he decided he was finished, he let everything take shape according to his 'codes' he wrote... well so to speak anyways. We were originaly created as it is described, but thats only to him. When the whole code thing went into effect, we would later evolve.

But thats probably to confusing... I just say trying to figure out how god does it all is to frustrating.

Who knows, maybe we didnt evolve from apes, or whatever the theory says. Maybe the neanderthalls were a species similar to humans, but they never evolved beyond that point. Then God just put humans on earth in a time he felt was right...

Hmm, all to confusing for me

[Soren707]

Originally Posted by Liquid Fire

I always love this topic because it kinda kicks Christianity right in the nads and then they squirm.

The bible says that god created the entire world in 7 days etc. and made humans as we are now (cept of course they had no belly button) so when theorizing we evolved from other beings it kind of sets the Christian rant about us all being created on fire. Also God invented the week? That must be an edit right there, time was something we created (not as a whole, just how we keep it)

So we keep the day by a cycle of the sun coming up, going down, the moon coming up, going down and the sun being back again, thats a day. Yet the bible doesn't mention space, not even sure if it mentions the sun. So if the sun is in outer space and the bible doesn't mention space doesn't that give the impression the bible implies that space doesn't exist and that the sun exists just for our life (then why would other planets exist?)

So doesn't the fact space exists prove god (as the bible describes) doesn't?

Yes, I agree with GDwarf that you take something that my brother always used to tell me, a chill pill. Anyways, the Bible doesn't have to be so specific. You don't see the span of your life in there do you? Does that mean you don't exist? I don't see the span of my life in the Bible. Does that mean I don't exist?

Also, in Genesis 1:1 is says, "God created the heavens and the earth." That's another way of saying, "God created the universe." Definition of universe: the whole world, esp. with reference to humanity. Definition of heavens: the sky, firmament, or expanse of space surrounding the earth. Please read the Bible and please don't make false accusations toward the Bible.

Could someone be kind enough to delete my post before this one? Thanks!

[DarKnite92]

Originally Posted by Surio

Well, there's always the argument that "Genesis is symbolic" (which is what GDwarf suggested, I think) but I don't think that THAT works either. Or rather, it's unbiblical.
For God to tell people something and expect them to believe it, it's either true or a lie, and God doesn't lie, so it's true. That's how I see it anyway.

But, it's obviously false, since it seems to go against everything carbon-dating, evolution and geology have to say.

Plus, the Creation story long predates Judaism.

[WarWalrus]

Iroquois indians of the northeast US believe that the world was started on the back of a turtle. Personally, I like that idea.

[Liquid Fire]

Originally Posted by GDwarf

Liquid, tone down your posts, yes?

We're trying to avoid flame wars, not start them.

Oops, sorry. Didn't think I was coming across as aggressive, I'll try to sugar coat my words in future posts.

EDIT-- see! even that seems aggressive . . . *sigh*