The End of Zelda as we know it? Phantom Hourglass might be a hint...

ETA: I just rewatched the ending, so I need to add a quote, and correct one as well.

Get your popcorn out, this rant's a long one. Thankfully, it's a positive one as well, and I do hope you enjoy reading. I will warn that there is a very minor spoiler for the cutscene after the credits, but only because I must point out a big step Nintendo has taken with a certain green-clad hero. I personally don't think it gives anything away without knowing the context.

I don't remember which interview it was, and I don't really have the willpower to dig it up for a citation. However, I do think fans will recall that it was once said that Twilight Princess would be the last Zelda game of its kind.

After finishing Phantom Hourglass, I believe we've seen the first of the "new" Zelda, and this involves a few specifics. First I'll go over the major changes in Phantom Hourglass, then after each, I'll give my thoughts on how this might change any future Wii or DS Zelda titles.

1. The obvious one: Gameplay.

The changes to gameplay in Phantom Hourglass were no less than huge.

The stylus control was superb. The gestures to attack were simple and to the point. (Reminded me a bit of Animal Crossing Wild World.) But the most amazing thing about it is that the swordplay only skimmed the surface of the new control scheme...

I'll give an example. Bombchus used to frustrate me to no end! I hated them with a passion. You know the 'old Zelda world is ending when *I* actually rely heavily on Bombchus by choice, and enjoy it.

Nearly every weapon had a very handy use... for snooping. For people who like to plan as they go along, or explore in safety, I can see this gameplay style really growing on them as more difficult games.

But the more things change...

Despite all that which is completely new, Phantom Hourglass reminded me quite a bit of the gameplay in Link to the Past. The top-down view was the biggest part obviously, as was the "single weapon button", the level design, etc...

But there is something to consider. Ocarina of Time was a reimagining of a 2d gameplay style in a 3D world. It almost seems that Nintendo has backtracked a bit and started over in the way they manage 3D space. In the end, the game was the best of both worlds, with all the good things in 3D and 2D Zelda merged into one. However, it still has a ways to go.

I have no doubt in my mind that we'll see this gameplay style on the next Wii Zelda, especially since I've seen several Stylus games translated over to the Wiimote quite nicely. Now, whether the new title will use the Wiimote or play via Wi-Fi on the DS (Think Pokemon Battle Revolution) is yet to be seen. Either could work.

With that in mind, I'm pretty sure it will be long years before we see the next Zelda title. Level design will require extensive rethinking and reinventing to make the Phantom Hourglass top-down control scheme look believable on better-powered hardware, and voice and handwriting recognition would be difficult without a digitizer and mic. That said, it's anything but impossible, and I'm not willing to count those two particular gameplay elements out forever.

One possibility I'm pondering is the possibility that Nintendo may consider releasing a new "tablet" controller for the Wii in the future. A video game doesn't need freakishly high DPI, so Nintendo could come up with a relatively inexpensive solution that is either a standalone controller or plugs into the Wiimote. Heck, find some way of adding rumble to mix it up a bit!

2. Out with the obsolete, In with the useful!

They finally got rid of the freakin' compass.

I have to say, this was the one gameplay element that never made sense to me in Zelda. Why the heck do I have to hunt for a compass? It's not like I can't tell where I'm going! Heck, I'm pretty sure I never found a couple of them in Twilight Princess, yet somehow I managed to find all the *other* secrets...

Of course, you may say, it tells me where the treasure is. Well, gee. Thanks. Sure wish my GPS did that. Maybe I should get a metal detector, or maybe I should ask for directions. But no, that wouldn't be a "compass", would it?

And why do I have to hunt for a new compass in each dungeon? I mean, that's kinda silly, isn't it? Does Link have a habit of throwing compasses away or something?

Say what you will, the compass never made sense, and it never will. I'm glad to see it gone, and I'm glad that Nintendo found a creative replacement for it.

Oh yes! And no more hunting for the stinkin' bottles! It was cute the first time, but it became a chore as time went by. And yeah, I did kinda feel sorry for the fairies in there. But in no way did the lack of bottles or heart pieces subtract from the total feel of the game. Now, my "treasure hunt" time can be used on more exciting things... In this case, the ship parts. (Customizing the ship was actually pretty fun.) To me, it makes sense that the collecting be for something collectible, and the ability to trade them made it even better. It feels like something that was added for the pure enjoyment of it, rather than a bunch of scattered things that must be aquired to artificially lengthen the game. (I say this even though Wind Waker was my fave Zelda, but at least I find the sailing to be relaxing. But then again, the ocean's pretty darn beautiful to look at.)

So what's next on the upgrade list?

Could be anything. Any weapons could be axed, any goodies could be added...

However, there's one particular thing that the Legend of Zelda is long overdue for. Yes, folks, that's real voicework. Nothing is more obsolete in the Zelda series than the scrolling text that replaces each character's voice, and nothing looks weirder than mouths moving without any sound coming out. And heck, in Phantom Hourglass, they didn't even do *that* half the time.

If Nintendo was going to keep up the whole "silent hero" thing, then I would strongly suggest that they look at a certain Xbox game called Fable, which was *obviously* created to play off the whole concept of Legend of Zelda and to put the player in the shoes of a hero whom they must "fill in the blanks" for. The game does a beautiful job at giving a voice to the world around it, while still letting the user make up their own mind.

However, the winds of change are on the horizon, so I don't know particularly how this will go. And I say that because...


3. Link Speaks! O RLY? YA RLY!

As I said, there are two things in Phantom Hourglass that take the final steps. To some, they may feel like they're going in opposite directions, but to a person like me who considers playing a video game to be getting into character anyway, I think they work together perfectly.

First of all, the player is expected to literally speak for Link in several situations. Much like yelling "Objection" in Phoenix Wright. You even write and jot down notes, and even sign for him on mail he recieves.

Now sure you say, you're still filling in the blanks. And yes, you are. However, Link is a role you play in the game, and therefore, he speaks.

The second "step" radically changes everything.

Here I am, watching the ending after the credits... Link turns and walks toward the handrail, his jaw slowly drops as all the pirates are arguing amongst themselves, distracted.

"It's not there anymore!"

I did a double take, eyes scanning all the pirates, who are all now in the process of turning their heads where Link is looking. No other characters in the scene could have said the line.

Link has officially spoken... in a game developed by Nintendo.

ETA: Upon a rewatch, it looks as if one of the pirates could have said it, and I suppose it could be argued as such. However, the scene is focused upon Link's reaction. Plus, it turns out there's another example a bit earlier, and I'm a bit surprised that I missed it.

There is actually a (very short) line that is definitely by Link. It's just a quickie, but it's "Oh...Hey!" as he wakes up on the ghost ship, surprised to find himself there. Tetra is still asleep and no other characters are with them. This tells me that I really need to replay the entire game with an open mind, because in retrospect, there were quite a few scenes in which it appeared Link was conversing, but I had to "remind" myself it was Ciela. Rewatching that scene makes me look at the entire game in a whole new light, and it has occurred to me that a player who is not familiar with the Legend of Zelda would not think twice about assuming that Link is speaking in many scenes. Was this intended?

But Link isn't supposed to talk!

Long has Nintendo publicly stated the opinion that Link should remain silent to allow the player to imagine for themselves what Link is thinking, saying, and doing. Long have fans agreed to this. In fact, even his name represented the fact that the player assumed his role in the game. And heck, Phantom Hourglass even puts the nickname assigned to the DS in Link's place by default. But in Phantom Hourglass, Nintendo took several steps that have changed the role of Link forever.

To me, playing a video game is like acting a role in a movie. Even when you are given an immense amount of choices, the character you play is a role you assume, even in MMOs. The point is to put yourself in a situation you wouldn't normally be in, and through the controller, you live that role, if only for a little bit. Simply put, this is your chance to walk that mile in another man's shoes.

Come on, you've all imagined yourself wearing the helmet and having Cortana's voice ringing in its headset when playing Halo. You've all imagined yourself on that eternal backpacking, pet-finding trip known as Pokemon, with your own hand throwing that ball rather than the renamed Dawn or Lucas. Tomb Raider gave you mental images of exploring gorgeous old ruins, while Sonic the Hedgehog gave you visions of what it would be like to run freakishly fast.

It doesn't matter that each and every one of those games feature a speaking main character. (Though I do wish Master Chief would show us his dang face already...) As long as the game was immersive, you were able to get in character and assume the role.

Well, some may consider it common knowledge that Link speaks, but just in words that we make up in our own imagination. After all, what else would the other characters be responding to?

However, this has developed into a strange fandom misconception that Link is mute. On another note, some other fans are outraged at the occasional debate brought up on whether or not Link should have lines in the future.

Well, some of us would just like to see Link fleshed out a little more, in places other than Fanfiction.net. To a degree, this has been happening all along.

Slowly but surely, Link's character has become more and more concrete in the games. In Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask, Link was given some rather expressive cutscenes. (And in Majora's Mask, we even get a small peek into his thoughts at one point.) In Wind Waker, the devs had more power to work with, and Link's cartoony facial expressions in the vast assortment of cutscenes gave us an even better idea of how he was feeling in each scenario, and he even gave a heart-meltingly cute little "Come on!" when you called another character toward you. Last but not least, Twilight Princess gave us the most emotional Link I could ever remember, a guy who went googly eyed when his girlfriend smiled or looked ready to cry when she didn't remember him.

Like it or not, Link's character is finally beginning to solidify into something other than the "Random Hero #46" that Fable played off of.

I think in a way, fans have feared the idea of Link's character becoming solidified somehow. Partly, I think this is the combined result of a certain 80's TV series and a couple of horribly made CD-i games.

In a way, it's been happening all along. But by keeping the whole "knights line" thing of Link to the Past, a legendary set of lines that allow for the multiple Links and Zeldas we've been seeing for years, I don't think we ever have to worry about Link's character becoming "too" solid. However, in every game, he is a human who thinks, acts, smiles, sweats, cries, screams in pain, jumps for joy, etc. He's just played by you, the player.

If random Jedi #20 that I create for myself and play in KOTOR can have lines, Phoenix Wright can allow the player to speak for him, and a set character in Hotel Dusk can have a notepad, I think a game character who is a cultural icon can have lines. It's not the end of the world.

The big conclusion

Zelda is changing. There is no doubt. And I believe Phantom Hourglass may be just the tip of the iceberg. I've given some speculations as to how Zelda may be handled in the future, but I will admit, they're probably wrong, and I may be way off.

If I am off, then I am certain that it's because there are more surprises in store. Maybe an even *more* intuitive control scheme? Or maybe Zelda will go the way of Prey and give us the entire game from a first person perspective.

I do wish you would have spoiler tagged that spoiler.

The rest of the thread would have been fine and still made sense without that part.

Oh well...I really don't care about spoilers and that's a pretty minor one.

Also, good thread. I myself think PH is great but not as great as others.

Links character has changed. But I feel that much of it has been because of the transition from two dimensional to three dimensional graphics. What must be noted is that Link's character in recent games isnt particularly individual or spontaneous, but typical of a duty bound hero.

In the earlier portion of your post, you seemed to indicate that you believed that perhaps the next Wii Zelda would be top down view, with a control scheme similair to Phantom Hourglass. Is that being realistic? and would it really be a step foward?

I think in a way, fans have feared the idea of Link's character becoming solidified somehow. Partly, I think this is the combined result of a certain 80's TV series and a couple of horribly made CD-i games.

I am one of the people who believes that Links mute quality is part of a great mix that defines Zelda, I do want him to show some emotion and character, but I dont want Link to become too individual or have too much personality. In my opinion, representing the player should be the main Goal of Link when interacting with his enviroment. One of the reasons I loved Zelda when I first played it (Ocarina Of Time) was the amount of control that I felt I had over Link. I openly feel that Link having a moderate lack of character makes the game far more immersive. Out of all of the games, I feel that Link from Twilight Princess has had the perfect balance of character.

Well, link is you. You are controlling link. therefore, if in the game link was some tough sounding burly dude, that woudl mean you are too? or vice versa, if links voice sounded girly and pathetic and he was weak and such, that would mean you are too. So, by keeping link silent and not revealing much about him, it helps you feel like your are him. Like your not just playing as link, You ARE that hero in green.

I doubt zelda will change as much as you claim. I do like the mixture of 2D and 3D, however, I doubt a new wii zelda will have such a graphic scheme. I mean, PH had some nice visuals, but it could never stand up to the amount of detail that can be put in a 3D enviroment. When I played PH, I definatly felt like I was playing a videogame. But when I play Oot and TP I feel like I'm no longer playing a game, and I'm actually in that world. Don't get me wrong, PH was great, but without Fully 3D graphics, it kind of lacks that feeling that your in a real world, not a digital world.

Besides, IF nintendo only did PH style graphics, that wouldn't be using the wii to its full potential. I do like the customazation factor that was in PH. I think it would be REALLY cool if in future zelda they had lots of weapons. For instance, in Final Fantasy, everytime you visit another area or town you have the ability to get a new weapon. If this was applied to zelda that would be very cool. For instance, Link could get a variety of weapons, swords, daggers, axes, etc. The daggers could be quick but deal little damage, the axe could be very slow but deal massive damage, and swords could be inbetween. well anyway, I don't think zelda will change tooo much. Its stayed mostly the same for the past few decades. IF it ain't broken, don't fix it!

Originally Posted by Curiosity

In the earlier portion of your post, you seemed to indicate that you believed that perhaps the next Wii Zelda would be top down view, with a control scheme similair to Phantom Hourglass. Is that being realistic? and would it really be a step foward?

Yes. However, having a transition to Wii would require a lot of retooling of the system. As I said, the game, the gameplay, and the level design would have to be significantly rethought to "make sense" in the Wii's graphical realm. It's been done with 3D games before, so it wouldn't be impossible.

Even so, Ocaina of Time, and the later Zelda gameplay we came to know, is a 3D transition of the "top down" Zelda as it is. But what I think we may have seen the last of is the "hold that button to lock on and strafe" and such.

Realistically, it might end up playing like Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets on the PC. The view was behind the head, rather than top-down, and the control set was the usual WASD. So it controls like an FPS, which if you think about it, is very "point and click", but being in third person, it's a different experience.

Originally Posted by zeldask8r0990

Well, link is you. You are controlling link. therefore, if in the game link was some tough sounding burly dude, that woudl mean you are too?

And why do you think I listed characters such as Master Chief and Lara Croft? Should I add the Arbiter from Halo? That was pretty fun...

See, no matter what the game, if I enjoy it, I find myself getting into character, assuming the role of whoever is running around the screen. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. In acting, you will often play characters who are *nothing* like you. Actors will often sit and ponder the person they're playing so that they can do their role correctly on stage or on screen. However, in a game, it's a bit more natural for some reason.

I should note this, but I need to do a second playthrough to be sure. There were times where I genuinely was confused as to whether Ciela or Link was speaking during the game, and I had to remind myself that it was Ciela. Though after the ending, I'm not quite sure...

As for spoilers... NT, I *did* warn ya, and gave you plenty of time to turn back by leaving it at the bottom. Unless you have a really really really tall and thin screen.

I enjoyed PH because it was quite different but still kept the 'Zelda-esque' feel.

There are a few moments in PH which shows the developers poking fun at the habits that Link has attained over the many years. This could possibly mean that they are realising it's okay to switch a few things around as long as they keep the same mystical feel. It's alright to have a bit of humour, romance and seriousness now and then.

A comedic example: When Link receives an item he throws his hand up in the air with the camera zoomed in on the item. In Phantom Hourglass, Link was handing over the Phantom Sword in the same manner. But in a quick change of style, the Ocean King snatched it out of Link's hands, leaving Link with a disappointed look. This literally made me laugh out loud and I don't think I've ever done that with a Zelda game.

Also as an example: love. Although they never really admitted this in the game. I think Lineback and Jolene had a lil' something for each other. I don't recall any other Zelda game having this kind of love-hate relationship. It shows how Nintendo are relating with a newer generation.

Those are the biggest changes in my opinion.

Heh. Actually, you're right. The game did have a lot of self referential humor. Not like Zelda hasn't before, but there was definitely more of it.

Like the "Hero's New Clothes". I was all "What the hey...?" I mean, it's quite obvious it refers to the second playthrough of Wind Waker, but I couldn't help but wonder what that was all about. Also, as annoying as it is to lose money, the Rupoors were pretty funny.

Originally Posted by Polychrome

2. Out with the obsolete, In with the useful!
They finally got rid of the freakin' compass...

They also got rid of Link searching for the dungeon map, which I found a little weird...unless the sea charts also hold the dungeon maps, then I suppose that's ok.


One more thing I wanted to add is comedy. Yes it's been in a few games, but not as much as it was shown in this one. There were two moments that I actually found myself laughing (I'll put them in spoiler format)

Spoiler (Highlight to read):

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1. When they rescued Tetra's body from the Ghost ship, just Linebeck's reaction from accidentally dropping her.

2. When Oshus asked Link to hand over the Phantom Hourglass (to merge with the Phantom Sword) Link did his usual twirling around, and before he could finish his dazzling presentation, Oshus snatched it from Link's grasp, leaving Link with a memorable expression of shock on his face.

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Hmmm. A very long and good thread.

Thankyou. ^_^

It's weird. You guys are pointing out something freakishly obvious, but I guess for some reason it never hit me. The game really was quite funny!

I would really like to see Link solidified as a character, I'm making him talk in a fangame I'm making, for some reason always when someone says something about Link talking everyone goes NO!!! REMEMBER CD-I THAT HAPPENS WHEN LINK TALKS!!well, is not that that is the ONLY way of speaking, that was a retarded game with retarded characters made by retarded people, if normal people make games and make characters to talk the character will talk normally unless is wanted to talk weirdly, I saw some kind of test wich tell you wich character you are more like, they described Link as someone really protective to other persons and puts everyone before himself, and exept in battles against normal enemies, he really thinks a lot before he act, and he likes to get all objects as possible in the places he goes.

yeah i think its time for the LOZ series to get a major facelift.and one thing that always pissed me off about the series is that no voicework at all in the games.i mean thay couldve gotten barney and friends to do the voiceovers at least.and time to stop the alternate timelines set up by OoT,put an end to it and have a continuous story line of successful sequels.

Originally Posted by Polychrome

Spoiler (Highlight to read):

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Here I am, watching the ending after the credits... Link turns and walks toward the handrail, his jaw slowly drops as all the pirates are arguing amongst themselves, distracted.

"It's not there anymore!"

I did a double take, eyes scanning all the pirates, who are all now in the process of turning their heads where Link is looking. No other characters in the scene could have said the line.

Link has officially spoken... in a game developed by Nintendo.

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Spoiler (Highlight to read):

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NO HE HAS NOT. I indeed did that same double take, but when I rewached the ending, I noticed that the bigger pirate (forgot his name) looks up for a second before that line is said. Besides, he never spoke before that. In ANY Zelda game. Why would they suddenly do it at the end of PH? Seems reeealy random to me...

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Oh, and have any of you noticed that you name your own character in Zelda games? You don't have to name him Link. So, how yould voice acted civilians talk to you if they don't know how to pronounce your name? Hm?

Originally Posted by HelmarocKing

Oh, and have any of you noticed that you name your own character in Zelda games? You don't have to name him Link. So, how yould voice acted civilians talk to you if they don't know how to pronounce your name? Hm?

I've thought about that, and there are a few options:
1. Not have the voice actors speak out your name (sure, it may seem unnatural at times, but it was done in Baten Kaitos where the player took the role of a spirit who aided the hero).

2. Have the name "Link" by default. They did it in FSA, why not in another one?

3. Combination of #1 and #2: The voice actors only say your name if it's Link.

4. The voice actors will have a small list of common names which could be chosen when you're starting up your file. For example, when they ask for your name there will be a list:
Link, Terry, Alex, etc...(mostly names that can be both male and female). And the voice actors would have gone through their roles with every single name option (but it may seem unnatural compared to having them say the original script with just "Link").


Plus, I say, we all know the player isn't the real hero, so why label him/her with the title? Give Link the credit.