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Old 05-21-2009, 07:04 PM
Dogbert Dogbert is offline
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Why castles and cannon don't mix

Anyway, I was thinking about how Zelda had some futuristic items like cannons in a world that is based on a medieval theme.

It really doesn't make sense from a historical point. Here's why:

-Castles were major fortifications that allowed a ruler to control a large area of land and defend it against enemies.

-If someone wanted to forcefully take a castle, they had basically two choices-break down the walls and storm the inside, or starve the people out with a long siege. The former wasn't usually practical, because castles had extremely strong walls and ways of stopping siege engines. Direct attacks at the base could often be repulsed by arrows and boiling tar. A siege was also pretty hard, because it was usually expensive; if the siege was broken, most of the effort would come to nothing.

-Cannons changed a lot of that. Once it became easy to destroy walls with repeated projectile blasts, castles went out of style quickly. Forts, which were shorter and often had earthen walls and ramparts, replaced them.

So this is why I don't think it would be a good idea to have cannons and futuristic technology in Zelda.
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Old 05-21-2009, 07:14 PM
American Soldier United States American Soldier is offline
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Re: Why castles and cannon don't mix

You are aware that cannons did exist during the midieval times, right? The were the first weapon to make use of gun powder.
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Old 05-21-2009, 07:16 PM
La Zed La Zed is a male United States La Zed is offline
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Re: Why castles and cannon don't mix

There are cannons in Zelda, but they were just not used as much as other weapons... if not at all.
Last Edited by La Zed; 05-21-2009 at 07:17 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
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Old 05-21-2009, 08:39 PM
Ganontron3000 Ganontron3000 is a male United States Ganontron3000 is offline
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Re: Why castles and cannon don't mix

I think it's a video game; it doesn't matter if it makes sense or not. It's fun, and not meant to be taken too seriously.
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Old 05-21-2009, 09:01 PM
BEHIND THE MASK BEHIND THE MASK is a male United States BEHIND THE MASK is offline
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Re: Why castles and cannon don't mix

A long (long) time ago I posted some ideas concerning a futuristic like Zelda (not to far, late Medieval, possibly early Enlightenment) with gunpowder... What we must remember is that Hyrule is not, really, Europe...

But if one wanted to be practical then let us say the Hyrule Castle was upgraded as the years past, a castle seemed to become obselete but citadels still proved costly to take, and further more whose to say the castle couldn't be redesigned in the fashion of a Star Fort, with cannons on its own walls and the angle of its construction it is a great defense even in the age of gunpowder.

Cannons and projectile shooting machines are already present in Zelda games, the only thing missing though is another force to challenge Hyrule in this aspect... The Gorons are peaceful and melee based for the most part and the Zora's would have little luck with soggy gunpowder, perhaps the Gerudo's, perhaps as like some sort of raiders, but een then raiders are more for fast hits, not lugging around artillery peices for seiges so really any attack on Hyrule Castle would do little good.

Perhaps I should get back into writing my fan idea!
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Old 05-22-2009, 12:50 AM
Dogbert Dogbert is offline
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Re: Why castles and cannon don't mix

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Calibur View Post
You are aware that cannons did exist during the midieval times, right? The were the first weapon to make use of gun powder.
I know that cannons were used in Europe in the hundred-years war in the 14-15 centuries. They became much more efficient in later years, and helped bring an end to castles only a few centuries later.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BEHIND THE MASK View Post
A long (long) time ago I posted some ideas concerning a futuristic like Zelda (not to far, late Medieval, possibly early Enlightenment) with gunpowder... What we must remember is that Hyrule is not, really, Europe...

But if one wanted to be practical then let us say the Hyrule Castle was upgraded as the years past, a castle seemed to become obselete but citadels still proved costly to take, and further more whose to say the castle couldn't be redesigned in the fashion of a Star Fort, with cannons on its own walls and the angle of its construction it is a great defense even in the age of gunpowder.
If the castle was a star fort with cannons, and the soldiers used muskets and halberds, would it really be Zelda?
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Old 05-22-2009, 01:17 AM
BEHIND THE MASK BEHIND THE MASK is a male United States BEHIND THE MASK is offline
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Re: Why castles and cannon don't mix

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Originally Posted by Dogbert View Post
If the castle was a star fort with cannons, and the soldiers used muskets and halberds, would it really be Zelda?
I'm not saying the castle would completly be converted to a star fort, but the castle could have similar qualities... Really, it doesn't have to be an exact replicca of actual star forts, the whole quality wouldn't even have to be touched upon, it could just be there for visual and practical reference, things like that would add whole new depth to arcitectual looks and scenary... You could still have a drawbridge, a moat, blend the centuries, medieval and gunpowder... men didn't just abandon army and fight in lines with muskets overnight.

To an extent... Guns had an effect but early muskets and such weren't always decisive... the heavy lance weilding Polish Hussars dominated the field for awhile during the late 17th and early 18th Century, heavy armored knight like troops. The Halberd was a true Medieval weapon though! Used by the Swiss, the halberd was a pike and axe basically, long enough to form a pike wall, and the axe to deal armored infantry. But even so, these weapons wouldn't completly change Hyrule... So what if you saw a Hylian soldier standing guard leaning against a musket, what if Hyrule Castle had jagged walls and cannons, Ganon always seemed to take it over anyways... Hell, what if Link could have both a bow and a musket? Each would have their points. A Musket being close proximity, losing accuracy over distance but really being a crack against armor, but the arrow, with its ability to have magic applied and its superior distance...

I think Hyrule is compatable with a new age, but it would have to be right... I wouldn't want to just see massive lines of infantry popping up without good reason (Though, it is explained in my story ><) the medieval element would defiantly have to remain, and be a strong, strong influence.
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Old 05-22-2009, 02:02 AM
TheBattler TheBattler is a male United States TheBattler is offline
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Re: Why castles and cannon don't mix

We can take real life into consideration.

Or we can just say that the walls in the game are magic walls that are enchanted. Problem solved.
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Old 05-22-2009, 02:16 AM
BEHIND THE MASK BEHIND THE MASK is a male United States BEHIND THE MASK is offline
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Re: Why castles and cannon don't mix

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Originally Posted by TheBattler View Post
We can take real life into consideration.

Or we can just say that the walls in the game are magic walls that are enchanted. Problem solved.
For every simple answer there may be a much greater complication in understanding

I'm not saying Hyrule should take the course of Europe, I'm just saying that it isn't completely foolish to believe that Hyrule, a land with quite a few intellectuals, would have some innovations all its own.

Rather it be with projectiles (Such as the numerous cannons already in the Franchise) Marine Biology (Though, thats arguably more apparant in MM) or even medicine (Those potions may have a magical qualities, but one may be able to assume the end result of the potion took many different formulas and tests to get to its current point)

Yet, at the same time all these rants of mine may only be a product of my inability to stop thinking ><
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Old 05-22-2009, 02:52 AM
GKANG GKANG is a male United Kingdom GKANG is offline
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Re: Why castles and cannon don't mix

Or they put a cannon in it because they wanted to because it's a game because they make games because it makes them money?
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Old 05-22-2009, 04:04 AM
luca luca is offline
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Re: Why castles and cannon don't mix

Canons=cool game

cool game= more money
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Old 05-22-2009, 06:51 AM
TourianTourist TourianTourist is a male Germany TourianTourist is offline
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Re: Why castles and cannon don't mix

Oh nooooo..... my view about Zelda now entirely changed, what a flawed game. If you now tell me, that magic, floating cities in the sky, funny steam trains and huge dragon monsters didn't exist in medieval times, I'm going to stop playing Zelda right now. A fantasy game of course has to be correct from a historical point.
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Old 05-22-2009, 12:06 PM
American Soldier United States American Soldier is offline
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Re: Why castles and cannon don't mix

Quote:
Originally Posted by TourianTourist View Post
Oh nooooo..... my view about Zelda now entirely changed, what a flawed game. If you now tell me, that magic, floating cities in the sky, funny steam trains and huge dragon monsters didn't exist in medieval times, I'm going to stop playing Zelda right now. A fantasy game of course has to be correct from a historical point.
Quoted for sarcastic truth.
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Old 05-22-2009, 01:17 PM
Kel-bel Heroine Kel-bel Heroine is a female United States Kel-bel Heroine is offline
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Cool

I don't have a problem with the "modern" things because I am such a huge Zelda fan! I do agree with TourianTourist because there ARE a lot of fantasy concepts in Zelda, so why be completely accurate? I mean, really. Part of the reason I love Zelda so much is because it is so different from the rest of the real world!
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Old 05-22-2009, 01:28 PM
Avalanchemike Avalanchemike is a male The Byzantine Empire Avalanchemike is offline
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Re: Why castles and cannon don't mix

I want great bombards. I want sieges.
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Old 05-22-2009, 05:26 PM
Dogbert Dogbert is offline
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Re: Why castles and cannon don't mix

Quote:
Originally Posted by BEHIND THE MASK View Post
I'm not saying the castle would completly be converted to a star fort, but the castle could have similar qualities... You could still have a drawbridge, a moat, blend the centuries, medieval and gunpowder... men didn't just abandon army and fight in lines with muskets overnight.
I think it would be hard to do a castle/fort crossover that wasn't an abomination. Are you suggesting a fort with a keep? Wouldn't most people be confused by such an arrangement, especially since the average, non-history geek probably never heard of a star fort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BEHIND THE MASK View Post
The Halberd was a true Medieval weapon though! Used by the Swiss, the halberd was a pike and axe basically, long enough to form a pike wall, and the axe to deal armored infantry.
The halberd was used by a lot more than the Swiss-the age of knights started going downhill when people figured out that horses don't like to charge into a wall of sharp, pointy objects (it was much cheaper to get an army with pikes than guns). Eventually, the Spanish pioneered a system where halberdiers defended cannons and musketeers in the center of a tercio (square). Cavalry was forced to wear less armor and strike quickly. By Napoleonic times, a "heavy" gendarme would have been considered defenseless on a medieval battlefield!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BEHIND THE MASK View Post
... So what if you saw a Hylian soldier standing guard leaning against a musket, what if Hyrule Castle had jagged walls and cannons, Ganon always seemed to take it over anyways... Hell, what if Link could have both a bow and a musket? Each would have their points. A Musket being close proximity, losing accuracy over distance but really being a crack against armor, but the arrow, with its ability to have magic applied and its superior distance...
What I'm saying is that if this occurred, then it would not be the Zelda that I've known for over a decade.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BEHIND THE MASK View Post
I think Hyrule is compatable with a new age, but it would have to be right...
I'm pretty skeptical. I'm not saying its impossible,but I don't think it could be done well. Plus, how would nintendo make a game where muskets could be used against Link hundreds of times without him dying? Being hit multiple times with metal balls traveling at the speed of sound should kill link just like any other human.
Last Edited by Dogbert; 05-22-2009 at 05:27 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
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Old 05-22-2009, 05:51 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: Why castles and cannon don't mix

Why change your lifestyle in response to cannons when it worked just fine in the face of people with magical powers?
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Old 05-22-2009, 06:18 PM
Bill Bill is a male United States Bill is offline
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Re: Why castles and cannon don't mix

Thankfully, Zelda is not set in medieval times. It is not set in historical times at all. It is set in an alternate world that does not need to adhere to the principles that govern our own world.

Frankly, the Zelda Universe is far more appealing than our own, so let it be.
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Old 05-24-2009, 11:52 AM
BEHIND THE MASK BEHIND THE MASK is a male United States BEHIND THE MASK is offline
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Re: Why castles and cannon don't mix

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogbert View Post
I think it would be hard to do a castle/fort crossover that wasn't an abomination. Are you suggesting a fort with a keep? Wouldn't most people be confused by such an arrangement, especially since the average, non-history geek probably never heard of a star fort..
True dat, the idea I had though is that only one side of the castle would have the fortifications, the other would be on sloped terrain that would already be hard enough to scale. I suppose some people would be confused, like you said not everyone is a history geek like me () but like I said the whole star fort thing is only an idea... the problem with the whole concept in Hyrule is that really, the Kingdom of Hyrule is the only apex power that could utilize gunpowder to such an extent, so even at that point a castle may remain because there is little threat of an enemy seige, though I suppose Gerudo's could do a hell of a number with some bombards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogbert View Post
The halberd was used by a lot more than the Swiss-the age of knights started going downhill when people figured out that horses don't like to charge into a wall of sharp, pointy objects (it was much cheaper to get an army with pikes than guns). Eventually, the Spanish pioneered a system where halberdiers defended cannons and musketeers in the center of a tercio (square). Cavalry was forced to wear less armor and strike quickly. By Napoleonic times, a "heavy" gendarme would have been considered defenseless on a medieval battlefield!.
Again, true, but this idea has always applied, but like most things in history it is how things are utilized. The Halberd has the same weakness as the Pike, it only has an advantage in numbers and a frontal charge, it is weak against the flank. Thats why Sterling Bridge was so deadly for the English, the Scots forced English knights onto a bridge where they couldnt be flanked and thus the knights were cut down... I believe the thing you talked about was pike-and-shot, in theory it is good, but the used of cannons made dense, tight formations such as pike walls vunerable, those massed men being easy targets... Lots of medieval weapons were dying out, but the lance stayed in for a long time, used by the Polish Winged Hussars during the late 1600s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogbert View Post
What I'm saying is that if this occurred, then it would not be the Zelda that I've known for over a decade..
I can see what you're saying... But all the aspects can remain, even in a new era... The story is about a great hero, not even a knight, the invention of early gunpowder may change the rules but in a world of magic and mystery, gunpowder only holds a limited boom compared to our reality... I always thought it would be interesting to keep the Medieval mindset of chivalry and royalty and yet throw guns into the mix... Though, Crusaders with guns, history was violent enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogbert View Post
I'm pretty skeptical. I'm not saying its impossible,but I don't think it could be done well. Plus, how would nintendo make a game where muskets could be used against Link hundreds of times without him dying? Being hit multiple times with metal balls traveling at the speed of sound should kill link just like any other human.
I can understand that... I got hit by an Iron Knuckle, died and a fairy must have kept the two peices together The idea remains the same if it be with arrows or bullets, like I said muskets weren't the most accurate of weapons and the I don't think Link will be charging enemy lines. Plus, if knight armor could still over protection from gunpowder, I feel a Hylian Sheild will survive with a nice clank!
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Old 05-24-2009, 06:26 PM
Dafoid United States Dafoid is offline
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Re: Why castles and cannon don't mix

Of course. Such a magical world would have some discrepancies.
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