Am I the only one who thinks fan expectations have been crazy ever since Oot?

Very long TLDR; thread, brace yourselves.

The Legend of Zelda series has always been one of the best games ever made. It wasn't until Ocarina of Time it's popularity sky rocketed and the series became an even more important staple to Nintendo's name. Twilight Princess made me realize that the standards and hopes of gamers have spiraled out of control ever since Oot, they expect each game to be some kind of "Lord of the Rings epic" that ends up being the most ground breaking game of the year.

Let's rewind all the way back to the NES, the debut of the very first Zelda game. You were put in the middle of nowhere with no direction on where to go. You were given a sword and it was all up to you to figure out what exactly you would have to do to save the land. At it's time Zelda was considered a revolution in gaming, one of the most incredible games of that time to ever come out. Link to the Past built on top of this formula and made it more user friendly for the general audience, but the difficulty was considerably at the same level. To many, they consider this besides Oot, the pinnacle of all Zelda games, almost enough to call it "perfection."

Ocarina of Time was Nintendo's chance to bring Zelda into 3d, and they created a formula that harkened back to LTTP and expanded on it as well. With the power of the N64 Nintendo was able to present the story of the game in a much more impressive manner then before, but if you really take a good look underneath all it's bells and whistles, it was really LTTP in 3d brilliantly recreated. It was not the same game, but everything the formula had was rightfully retained and beautifully executed once again. This also however to me, signified a new era in the franchise's name. The expectations of fans and new gamers that were introduced to the series marked a new beginning for Nintendo. Majora's Mask was released soon after, and it tipped the scales on what everyone was expecting out of true sequel to Oot. It was a fantastic game and continues to be one to this day, so how do you top that? Nintendo however, chose a different route instead of giving us another sequel akin to Oot and MM, we got the Wind Waker.

It was at this point we should have realized how crazy the expectations of each Zelda game were to the fans. To many it was like Nintendo was pulling a horrible prank on it's entire fanbase, while another half of the fan base embraced the change of pace. It was at this time the entire Zelda audience was split in half. The Wind Waker eventually released and ended up being a phenomenal success despite the constant moaning and accusations of Nintendo "babying" it's own franchise. People weren't happy though, and soon after Nintendo promised to deliver with what everyone expected to be the best Zelda ever.

Twilight Princess's first teaser debuted at E3 of 2004. The announcement shook a large part of the industry and seemed to have put the franchise "back on top." After years of delays and being hyped up to heaven, TP finally released on the Gamecube and Nintendo Wii. What we got was nothing we expected, but one of the most sub par games in the franchise that reeked of one message, appealing to the fans. A good number still consider it a good game, but to many it's nothing we were expecting. Twilight Princess was nothing more but a love letter to Oot fans, and it lasted for a good time, but the bitter sweet taste of the game eventually caught on to us. You can argue as long as you want on why TP didn't deliver or if you disagree with me, but I feel that the main reason TP ended up not being as great as we had hoped was because it only existed for the fans that were drawn in after Oot.

I won't get into PHG, because I haven't played enough of it to give you my two cents on it. The point I'm trying to make quite simply, is that the fans need to tone down and rethink what Zelda truly is about. Ocarina of Time is definitely a fine game, and I also consider it one of the best games I've ever played, but people have forgotten what makes each Zelda game so wonderful.

The sensation I used to feel from the games has not been present for awhile now. I haven't felt that wonderful feeling that I was playing something truly amazing ever since the Wind Waker. It's that same feeling you get from playing a game you love you just can't put into words. The deeper the series falls into the general audience, the less "Zelda" the games will be. We need more games like the Wind Waker, a new Zelda that dares to be different and have it's own personality despite what the fans want. I have incredible faith that the new Zelda game being made that is supposedly a break from the norm will be able to do this. I believe that if Nintendo keeps appealing to the same generation from Oot that expect the games to be something more then they are, it will be like wringing a towel completely dry. That's what TP almost did.

EDIT: I should also mention I did enjoy Fourswords Adventures and Minish Cap.

End rant.



Also sup, haven't posted here in awhile.

Wow...

...Are you god? Seriously, you just posted my thoughts on the Series.
I was part of the OoT generation, but I like playing older games. So you can't really say that I am an OoT fanboy.

Originally Posted by ClusterShart

Wow...

...Are you god? Seriously, you just posted my thoughts on the Series.
I was part of the OoT generation, but I like playing older games. So you can't really say that I am an OoT fanboy.

Nah, I'm just a very dedicated fan, and likewise my friend. I enjoy the older games thoroughly and still to this day.

I don't think many fans expect Nintendo to continuously pump out Zelda games at or around the same level of quality as Ocarina of Time, because that simply isn't possible. Zelda is a series famed for consistantly hitting the nail on the head and producing stellar games, so Nintendo have set themselves some high standards, but we know they are more than capable of reaching them.

The problem isn't that the fans are demanding too much, the problem is that lately Nintendo hasn't been getting it right. Go back and watch the first trailer for Twilight Princess from E3 2004. Nintendo has never gotten a reaction like that before or since that trailer. The audience was going berserk.

The reason was because not only was it a call-back to the art style of Ocarina and Majora's, but because it looked like it would be a truly immense game. It looked like how a Zelda game would be if it were to be a Lord of the Rings epic. It looked as if this was how Nintendo would envision a Zelda if it were set a truly massive medieval world. It wasn't because it looked like a remake of Ocarina, it was because it looked like something new, something big, something huge.

When Twilight Princess came out, it was anything but. Sure, it was a long game, and the overworld was bigger than ever, but there was no soul to it. The overworld was big for the sake of being big, and the game used the same formula as Ocarina of Time. Fans were expecting a Zelda that looked and sounded familiar, but played out differently. Kind of a polar opposite to The Wind Waker, which looked and sounded different, but played out the same.

Then there was Phantom Hourglass. All that needs to be said about that game is that Nintendo was dumbing it down for the sake of the expanded audience, and the fans weren't happy. Nintendo needed to make up for the disappointment of Twilight Princess, and Phantom Hourglass was as big a step in the wrong direction as you could get. The fact that what is arguably one of the worst, if not the worst game in the series is getting a sequel which is totally destroying fans' image of Hyrule as a medieval fantasy world by including steam powered trains in it is only damaging the series reputation amongst fans even more.

Hope for the series future is riding on Zelda Wii. Nintendo needs to pull another The Wind Waker on us here if they want to make up for screwing up three times in a row. We need something that perfectly combines old and new, and most importantly, it needs to be designed with a Zelda fans' level of skill in mind. Screw the expanded audience, Zelda isn't meant for them. It's meant to be a target for them, something they work their way towards being good enough to play. Nintendo themselves said this, and they've completely gone back on their word, and it's high time they make it up to us.

I agree with a good portion of your post. The Twilight Princess we got was definitely not the Zelda we were teased about and saw in action. It looked like a true sequel to Oot at first until the Twilight Realm came into play, which I still see as a rather bland idea.

I think the new Zelda has to be completely new if the franchise is to be saved or at the very least retain what has made it so good for years. They need new ideas for practically everything. They've rehashed a good amount of elements from past games that need a good update in order to survive.

Also, god dammit yes. I'm glad I'm not the only one who agrees, Phantom Hourglass was just terrible.

I have wanted another game like OoT but i am very happy playing it over again every year!

Ahh another thread whining about the series. Am I alone in thinking its a waste of time to dwell on this? While I agree that PH was a pile of feces compared to the rest of the series, im not gonna really dwell on it. Maybe its because I wasnt exposed to the great hype of Twilight Princess but I found the game to be just fine. I didnt care for the Wii version mainly for gameplay reasons. Im gonna ignore any real hype surrounding the upcoming games. Its just better not to get all excited about any game really, not even Fire Emblem. Why should I? Especially when people are gonna whine about online! >_<
Im also NOT of the OoT generation. Maybe that has something to do with it! At any rate i think its just blowing hot air for the saking of doing so. No Offense to the OA, since that was a well written post.

Part of the problem is that gamers in general now have higher expectations than before.

But remember, Mario games have gotten similar levels of criticism to Zelda games on the same console.

Super Mario 64 influenced 3D gaming to come, while Ocarina of Time became the highest-rated game of all time and Majora's Mask became renowned for its departure from the Zelda normal.

Super Mario Sunshine was criticised for it's repetitive atmosphere, while the same was said of Wind Waker's sailing and Twilight Princess in general.

Super Mario Galaxy reinvigorated the Mario series, reinvigorated the Platforming genre in general, and reinvigorated the Wii's Library. Not to mention the fact that it became one of the highest-rated games of all time (3rd on Gamerankings). If the pattern continues, Zelda Wii could possibly be the greatest game of all time. This is why I have such high expectations for it. Nintendo is run by people, not robots, and as such they are able to learn from their past mistakes.

All of this criticism because they listened to their fanbase (TP)

Originally Posted by Double A

Part of the problem is that gamers in general now have higher expectations than before.

But remember, Mario games have gotten similar levels of criticism to Zelda games on the same console.

Super Mario 64 influenced 3D gaming to come, while Ocarina of Time became the highest-rated game of all time.

Super Mario Sunshine was criticised for it's repetitive atmosphere, while the same was said of Wind Waker's sailing and Twilight Princess in general.

Super Mario Galaxy reinvigorated the Mario series, reinvigorated the Platforming genre in general, and reinvigorated the Wii's Library. Not to mention the fact that it became one of the highest-rated games of all time (3rd on Gamerankings). If the pattern continues, Zelda Wii could possibly be the greatest game of all time. This is why I have such high expectations for it. Nintendo is run by people, not robots, and as such they are able to learn from their past mistakes.

All of this criticism because they listened to their fanbase (TP)

You have a really good point there! *Feels enlightened and happy*

Thank goodness. Someone who actually thinks.
I read through your "rant" and I agree with you, mostly. The fans will always have huge expectations. The way Zelda has gone looks a lot like how many other franchises have gone- not even limited to video games. Even movie franchises have made gone through similar times ( notably, Star Wars ).

I agree with you 100%. Fans are always expecting another OOT with every new Zelda. They also should have kept in mind that many things in TP were BETA.


Although I disagree with you saying that Zelda needs EVERYTHING to be different. Mario galaxy was different, but it was also in the realm of possibility for Mario. Trains AREN'T in the realm of possibility for Zelda. But there sure as hell are many other things that are.

I've been seeing a lot of these debates around lately, and I'm relieved to see that so many people are reaching this conclusion. I, too, was an OOT child, and became such a fanboy that I hunted down, played and beat every game in the series. The difference between the older games and the newer games is phenomenal.

The one thing that Nintendo seem to have forgotten is that Link is not an archaeologist or a tomb raider - he is a warrior. Say what you like about dungeons and puzzles - the sad truth there is that if you've played as much of the series as I have, chances are there isn't much else they can throw at you that'll challenge you for long. The enemies, however, are a very different story.

Above all else, the AI and overall difficulty posed by the enemies have plummeted, and the turning point was the year 2002. Just prior to this, the series had hit the pinnacle of overall difficulty in both dungeons and enemies, with Majora's Mask on the console and Oracle of Seasons/Ages on the handheld. Then the Wind Waker came out, and everything changed. The enemies in this game were pitiful, and the art style is much to blame for this. Now don't get me wrong, I loved the art style in Wind Waker - it was vibrant and lively and fantastic for story-telling. However, the enemies suffered. Moblins and Bokoboblins were reduced to comically idiotic goons - it's like the entire point of them was that they were ridiculously easy to outwit.

Even the most challenging (and I use that term lightly) common enemy, the Darknut, was severely dumbed down from its former position as the greatest common threat in the series - known as both Darknut and Iron Knuckle, but essentially the same enemy, it was one of the toughest foes you could find in LOZ, AOL, OOT and MM, but it, too, suffered the consequences of comic effect.

The bosses suffered too. Jalhalla was literally a joke, Puppet Ganon was Ganon's most pitiful incarnation yet, and the final showdown with Ganondorf, while visually pleasing, was reduced to a short series of quick time events.

Twilight Princess was a cut above Wind Waker, but not by much. Visually, it was stunning, and the dungeons were certainly more challenging than those of its predecessor, but the enemy AI once again suffered. There were two exceptions, however; The Darknut was restored to its former glory, was frankly the most badass it's ever been, and was incredibly tough to beat in groups, and TP finally brought the Ball and Chain Soldier of ALTTP to life in the form of Darkhammer, which in my own opinion was the toughest enemy in the game - some real thought and reflexes were necessary to beat him. This is proof that Nintendo are more than capable of making tough enemies - they're just not doing it all that much.

The giant flaw that became obvious in this game, however, was that that Nintendo had severely dumbed down the damage mechanics. ALTTP, for example, got progressively harder as the game went on, with enemies being able to deal 4 hearts worth of damage at a time, and bosses even more so. In order to survive the increasingly harsh dungeons and enemies, you had to pick up stronger swords and armour. The Iron Knuckles of OOT could hack off a massive 5 hearts with a single blow, more than any other enemy in the game. Now, however, you'd be surprised if you lost any more than 2 hearts after being swatted out of the air by Argorok's fire breath and falling twenty storeys.

Not only are Nintendo making it easier to kill enemies, they're also making it harder to die. Since the sudden explosion of the casual market, I very much doubt that's going to change any time soon.

Man. It's almost as if Ocarina of Time became the Final Fantasy VII of the series or something. Introducing a whole new generation of fans who now hold that game as the benchmark and all. I jumped into the series at A Link to the Past by the way.

I think that what OSM said is soemthing Nintendo knew would happen and that's why they made Wind Waker the way they did. Back when fans were mad at Nintendo for making WW cel shaded, Nintendo responded by saying that if they made a "traditional" Zelda on the Gamecube it would be just another OOT but prettier. Why? Because the Gamecube was basically an N64 with prettier graphics.

Each Zelda game, not unlike Mario, is indicative of the hardware it's on. That's the main thing that's kept the franchise fresh. ALttP was a refined version of the original Zelda - being made on what was essentially a more powerful NES, and OOT put things in 3D just like the N64 as a whole did. With WW on the Gamecube Nintendo needed to keep Zelda fresh with a design solution instead of a hardware one.

In my opinion, it might've been better if Nintendo had actually made TP (or something like TP) first in order to appease the fans and make them realize how unoriginal such an idea is. Then when the fans are actually asking for something new, Nintendo would be able to give them that with WW (or something like it).

Also, I loved Phantom Hourglass and I have a feeling that this is the direction that Zelda is heading in. Just like the other Zeldas, Phantom Hourglass felt completely fresh because of how Nintendo used the hardware to make it feel unlike any Zelda before it. I think that whatever new innovation Nintendo does for their new Wii Zelda, it will be related to making the interface more elegant and intuitive the way PH did it on the DS.

I'm very confident that the supposed new system that Nintendo is using in the next Zelda (the skip puzzle option) will be the answer many of us have been waiting for for awhile now. I'm fairly confident it is intended for the next Zelda and that it will truly be something different that we can look forward to. Shigeru Miyamoto said it himself that Twilight Princess would be the last Zelda game of it's kind, so we're about to mark the beginning of a new era for the franchise once again if he is true to his word.

Originally Posted by Seen

Although I disagree with you saying that Zelda needs EVERYTHING to be different. Mario galaxy was different, but it was also in the realm of possibility for Mario.

At this point the formula does need a good shake up in the usual formula. Twilight Princess was certainly a fine game, but the entire thing felt uninspired. I'm not asking for a game that's exactly like the Wind Waker, but I just want Zelda to feel like Zelda again. Like I said I can't put the emotion into words, it's just a feeling I have not experienced in a long time. The Wind Waker was the last game to do it for me.

Originally Posted by Seen

Trains AREN'T in the realm of possibility for Zelda. But there sure as hell are many other things that are.

If you ask me, I think Spirit Tracks is a mere practical joke from Nintendo to the audience who wanted to introduce Steam Punk elements into the franchise. All they're doing is just rehashing Phantom Hourglass with a new coat of paint. At first I was excited about the title but now I honestly don't see it as something to be excited over at all. The way Nintendo has been handling things lately have me in a very doubtful frame of mind of where they will head next, not just including the Zelda franchise.

I think that the Zelda fans don't know what they want in a Zelda game.
They claim to want another OOT, but yet they don't.
Another thing is that OOT was the first 3-D Zelda game, and nothing will ever recapture that feeling again.

On the Plus side TP showed that Nintendo can make a game with character development like Midna, Colin, and Ilia, who have more development then any of the characters in OOT.

But again the problem is that the fans don't know what they really want to see in a Zelda game.

What Nintendo should do is NOT LISTEN TO THEIR FANS!!!

TP was released to a group who wanted a darker, more realistic Zelda, and they still complained, and they even began to appreciate WW for what it was.

Mario Galaxy was not born out of the desires of Mario fans, but out of the ingenuity of Miyamoto (and a whole lotta other people). I have high expectations for Zelda Wii.

sounds to me like you have a very personal "grudge" that is quite unique compared to the general population of zelda fans who for the most part all hold the same views on where the next game should go. But before i go on my own rant i will say this, who do you think appeals to NINTENDO as a company, the much smaller percentage of fans who share simliar views to yours or the OoT fanboys and girls. the game has been number one on so many lists for the best games ever made and even people who aren't into the zelda series can most likely remember playing OoT if you grew up in the 90s.

i was there for NES days as well and i can say that while playing those games at the time truly amazed me, OoT blew me away and still does in my adult years. any one who was there for those days will remember how the zelda series skyrocketed after OoT, which i dont see as a bad thing at all. i made alot of friends that we all played OoT after school together.this is not for any other reason then that it was a great game, that was so beatuifully executed that it drew in and created zelda fans of people who would otherwise not be interested in the earlier games which by todays standards (a new young fan) is dull, boring and lifeless.

when i read the first post i was both impressed that a fan has finally put a decent argument into some rational thinking towards where the series is going but i was also quite confused as your views if taken by one such as myself who has nothing else to judge by but the information you have stated, seem to be peppered with hypocrisy.

you say the deeper that the series falls to its fans the less zelda feeling it is?
IMO how a zelda game "feels" is based ONLY on how the person who is playing it feels about it, and its quite obvious from reading this that TP mostly didnt meet your expectations.

i completely agree with you that fans expectations became WAY to high after OoT, but to a real fan, a good zelda game is a good zelda game regardless. i can personally remember expectations for Majoras mask being WAY higher then for TP because it was pretty much straight after OoT. commercials where on TV with images of the moon dropping down upon clocktown and people lost there freakin minds where im from! but maybe my views are biased since i didnt feel that TP dissapointed me in any way, and im from the NES days.

the subject just confuses me as you kind of branch off into other subjects somewhere in between the first few paragraphs and the last one about how TP left a sour taste in your mouth, so to speak. alot of your well made points in the beggining of your post seemed to contradict each other by the time i finished reading.

an interesting read anyway! thanks

Originally Posted by eaker

sounds to me like you have a very personal "grudge" that is quite unique compared to the general population of zelda fans who for the most part all hold the same views on where the next game should go. But before i go on my own rant i will say this, who do you think appeals to NINTENDO as a company, the much smaller percentage of fans who share simliar views to yours or the OoT fanboys and girls. the game has been number one on so many lists for the best games ever made and even people who aren't into the zelda series can most likely remember playing OoT if you grew up in the 90s.

i was there for NES days as well and i can say that while playing those games at the time truly amazed me, OoT blew me away and still does in my adult years. any one who was there for those days will remember how the zelda series skyrocketed after OoT, which i dont see as a bad thing at all. i made alot of friends that we all played OoT after school together.this is not for any other reason then that it was a great game, that was so beatuifully executed that it drew in and created zelda fans of people who would otherwise not be interested in the earlier games which by todays standards (a new young fan) is dull, boring and lifeless.

when i read the first post i was both impressed that a fan has finally put a decent argument into some rational thinking towards where the series is going but i was also quite confused as your views if taken by one such as myself who has nothing else to judge by but the information you have stated, seem to be peppered with hypocrisy.

you say the deeper that the series falls to its fans the less zelda feeling it is?
IMO how a zelda game "feels" is based ONLY on how the person who is playing it feels about it, and its quite obvious from reading this that TP mostly didnt meet your expectations.

i completely agree with you that fans expectations became WAY to high after OoT, but to a real fan, a good zelda game is a good zelda game regardless. i can personally remember expectations for Majoras mask being WAY higher then for TP because it was pretty much straight after OoT. commercials where on TV with images of the moon dropping down upon clocktown and people lost there freakin minds where im from! but maybe my views are biased since i didnt feel that TP dissapointed me in any way, and im from the NES days.

the subject just confuses me as you kind of branch off into other subjects somewhere in between the first few paragraphs and the last one about how TP left a sour taste in your mouth, so to speak. alot of your well made points in the beggining of your post seemed to contradict each other by the time i finished reading.

an interesting read anyway! thanks

You, young sir, hit the nail on the head! +1 to everything you said!

I would really appreciate another MM. Nothing as similar to MM as TP was to OoT, but something that explores a different place, with different issues. And something that's a little more sinister.

I didn't think of TP as sinister at all, by the way. Zant had creepy teeth, but that's the only thing that really came across as "dark" to me.

Anyway, I personally feel that a lot of video games now are just losing the feeling of "legendary" that they used to have. This is probably because companies can crank 'em out so fast now.

I don't think that Spirit Tracks looks like it will reintroduce that feeling to the Zelda games, so I just hope that the new Zelda for the Wii will be fresh enough to bring back the excitement.

OOT set the standards of a Zelda game extra high. So when a game does not live up to it's expiation we get disappointed, maybe not completely but with certain aspects of the game.