Twinrova.. same person or guardians of Ganondorf lineage?

This is something I was just wondering today, but with so much focus on the key characters it would seem one of the key secondary ones is left mainly ignored. The odd thing is this, Koume and Kotoke both died at the very beginning of all this. Yet we know that they did return later on, we know that Ganondorf was revived and then there is the fact that he was raised by these two woman rather than his own mother.

Given how only one male is born every 100 years and how the two of them were older than that it's possible that Twinrova is actually like a steward of the males who would become the King of Evil. This ties into the next WW game where I'm wondering if Twinrova will return to save Ganondorf. So could it be that someone revived her? Thats not possible when almost all of Ganondorf's minions were killed. There's a very firm chance that twinrova (koume and kotoke) are actually in the same situation as Impa where there is a lineage of Gerudo woman dedicated to service of the King of Evil.

What does everyone else think?

Um. Hrmm. Twinrova, and I do not remember this clearly, is descrinbed as the surrogate mother of Ganondorf. Therefore she is more likely nurse than a mother.

Its an interesting idea, but I don't think it really matters. Koume and Kotoke have that hilarious death scene in OOT where they are ascending to heaven (I guess hell is a bit heavy for Nintendo to talk about) and squabbling over who is older (they are twins of course....), and they are probably 500.

It is not far-fetched to see them as long lived if not immortal (although I do doubt they would be immortal).

So it all boils down to this, what device does nintendo use to return a character that we kill of perenially.

I think that Twinrova was killed by Link in the future, thus they are dead in WW and will stay dead.
I also think that this future was erased, therefore Twinrova was never killed in the future.
However, I believe that the Oracle games take place four or five years after the present OoT. Therefore they are still alive to sacrifice themselves to release Ganon from the Void of the Evil Realm.

Twinrova are about 500 years old. They date back to an era before OoT like many things in Zelda do. I believe they were part of the group of Enchanted Thieves that first broke into the Sacred Realm to steal the Triforce. This was the Imprisoning War.

So I think it is also possible for them to be the guardians and teachers of each Gerudo male.
L is real

"Surrogate mother".....

Which means that Twinrova isn't related to Ganondorf. Maybe "adoptee" would work for those who can't understand what surrogate means...

As for the two being the same person, they aren't. They are both seperate entities, known as Koume and Kotake. One controls the element of fire, one controls the element of ice.

The name for the two, when fused, is Twinrova. The name issue comes from the same name issue as Ganon. Twinrova is the name they are commonly referred to as.....

"I think that Twinrova was killed by Link in the future, thus they are dead in WW and will stay dead.
I also think that this future was erased, therefore Twinrova was never killed in the future."

The twin timeline theory has more holes in it than chedder cheese, you don't even have to look that deeply to see that it doesn't fit together very well. There is utterly no evidence that the future timeline is 'erased' anyway nor is that any reason why it would be since the two timelines have been seperated for all time. The games we have at the moment are set in that future timeline though of course, the past one was only explored with MM however since we have no idea what happened in the future timeline it's possible there is a young Link both in the past and the future (remember that people and objects existed on both sides of the timeline). If thats true then MM could have happened in either.

What timeline MM appeared in doesn't matter since it has utterly no connection to the Triforce legend.

"They date back to an era before OoT like many things in Zelda do. I believe they were part of the group of Enchanted Thieves that first broke into the Sacred Realm to steal the Triforce. This was the Imprisoning War."

The Nintendo developers said that OoT was part of the Imprisoning War themselves, you can't dispute that cause that is direct from the source. I don't know where to start with whats wrong with your ideas of what happened there, it simply so out of line with the facts.

"Which means that Twinrova isn't related to Ganondorf. Maybe "adoptee" would work for those who can't understand what surrogate means...

As for the two being the same person, they aren't. They are both seperate entities, known as Koume and Kotake. One controls the element of fire, one controls the element of ice."

You missed what I was talking about completely, i was referring to the fact they come back from the dead somehow without help from a higher power. There's a chance that like Impa that there is a lineage of Koume and Kotoke twins who take up the role as stewards of Ganondorf over the years.

You mean that they were both reincarnated as twin sisters AGAIN? Those are some very unlikely odds.

Nintendo has never said that OoT was the Imprisoning War. Miyamoto only said that it had a story that was similar to the IW.

And it's, "...more holes than Swiss cheese." Not cheddar.
L is real

"The quote is from character designer Satoru Takizawa.

This time, the story really wasn't an original. We were dealing with the "The Imprisoning War of the Seven Sages" from the SNES edition Zelda. To give that game a little "secret" recognition, I thought that keeping the "pigness" in Ganon would be the correct course. So we made him a beast "with the feeling of a pig."

OoT was part of the Imprisioning War saga mentioned in ALttP. So it didn't happen before OoT. As for TwinRova I'm saying since they return the two of them could have been reincarnated or another pair of Gurdero twins who survived the floods might have taken up the mantle of Twinrova. Thats my point, do people think it's the reincarnation options or a lineage like with Impa, Zelda ect..

Although most of that tends to be in direct contradiction with the sequences in OOT that talk of a huge war prior to the ascendence of the King to the throne. What was this war then?

Furthermore, what a game maker says is not necessarily canon. An artist or writer is obligated to express what he wants to express through his work, and not through explanations ex post facto. Unless nintendo "revises" the game to change it, then the game is the first and foremost source of canon on theory.

I can't quite remember, but what does Twinrova- by that I mean both of her separate entities- say when she/they are attempting to raise Ganon in the Oracle games. By using their knowledge as a barometer, we can determine age somewhat accurately.

Well in the oracles if you beat both and hook them up you get to fight Ganon and Twinrova. It says Ganon was ressurected so Twinrova probably was too. I hope this post isn't pointless and all this has been said in this thread which I am to lazy to read completely.

"Furthermore, what a game maker says is not necessarily canon."

I see, so one of the lead producers/designer for OoT isn't the authority on what the game and the story is about? So if the designers and creators aren't the people who know what is the truth then who is? Me? You? The spotty teenagers who sit behind the desks in your local games store working for minimum wage who put your games purchases through the checkout?

What was the war started by? How about the simple fact that all these race are different in many ways, thats a good enough reason for them to fight with one another.. always was and always will be. Either that or they were busy accusing one another of hiding weapons of mass destruction....

Very interesting, it makes sence and I can see it happening.

If the Twinrova in the OoA/OoS was different than the Twinrova in OoT I think it would have said so in the game, or at least hinted at it. Neither of which happened in the Oracle games.

Who the hell knows where Twinrova went when they died, but we do know that they are witches, posessing many great powers. Wherever they went to, they probably found a way to get back to Hyrule using magic.

Oh, and by the way, the definition for surrogate is a substitute. So it doesn't mean that Twinrova was actually artificially inseminated, it can also mean that Ganondorf's parents died, and Twinrova took him in an raised him as substitute parents.

"If the Twinrova in the OoA/OoS was different than the Twinrova in OoT I think it would have said so in the game, or at least hinted at it. Neither of which happened in the Oracle games."

It was never said that Impa wasn't the same person who was always looking after Zelda, some people just assume it's someone else because the Impa from OoT looks so drastically different from the ones seen later on.

And again with the serogate mother thing, I know it means substitute. The question is WHY wasn't it Ganondorf's birth mother who looked after him and raised him? Maybe some kind of tradition where the males are raised by Twinrova and trained in the blackarts in preperation for their role as the King of Evil? Or maybe like the Deku Tree they sense that Ganondorf was a child of destiny unlike other males born so they wanted to ensure he fullfilled his potential.

Then there's the simple fact that maybe his mother died during birth however that would imply adoption rather than where it refers to Twinrova as a serogate mother so I susspect Ganondorf's mother had her child taken from her to be raised by the witches as part of some kind of tradition.

Ganondorf's mother most likely died giving birth to him, or died sometime shortly after that. Twinrova could have adopted Ganondorf and still be his surrogate mothers, all surrogate means in this case is that they are substitutes for his mother, they took over the role of being his mother.

I don't understand why people think up such drastic things like this.

Tal-N: "The quote is from character designer Satoru Takizawa.

This time, the story really wasn't an original. We were dealing with the "The Imprisoning War of the Seven Sages" from the SNES edition Zelda. To give that game a little "secret" recognition, I thought that keeping the "pigness" in Ganon would be the correct course. So we made him a beast "with the feeling of a pig."

L64: And not one word says that he is the same Ganon or that OoT is the same war. Also, he is a character designer, not a storywriter, so his opinion doesn't mean anything anyway.

Tal-N: OoT was part of the Imprisioning War saga mentioned in ALttP. So it didn't happen before OoT.

L64: I have already provided substantial evidence that OoT is not the Imprisoning War.

Tal-N: As for TwinRova I'm saying since they return the two of them could have been reincarnated or another pair of Gurdero twins who survived the floods might have taken up the mantle of Twinrova. Thats my point, do people think it's the reincarnation options or a lineage like with Impa, Zelda ect..

L64: No. Average gamers think that it's the same person. Most people think there are different Impas though, but then again all three of them look different from each other.

Bobslob: Although most of that tends to be in direct contradiction with the sequences in OOT that talk of a huge war prior to the ascendence of the King to the throne. What was this war then?

L64: Correct, but this was still not the Imprisoning War. Rauru confirms this when he said that the Temple of Light was created ages before that era.
This was most likely only a war between the Hylian and the Gerudo. The Gorons and Zoras had seemed to have already made a pact with the Hylians, though it was still somewhat new and fragile. The Gerudo however did not have an alliance with anyone, which is why a full-fledged unity did not exist.

Bobslob: I can't quite remember, but what does Twinrova- by that I mean both of her separate entities- say when she/they are attempting to raise Ganon in the Oracle games. By using their knowledge as a barometer, we can determine age somewhat accurately.

Leo: Well in the oracles if you beat both and hook them up you get to fight Ganon and Twinrova. It says Ganon was ressurected so Twinrova probably was too. I hope this post isn't pointless and all this has been said in this thread which I am to lazy to read completely.

L64: The word "resurrected" can mean something other than being brought back to life. It can also mean released from a tomb or coffin. This is what the Void of the Evil Realm was to Ganondorf, so being resurrected is still an accurate term.

Tal-N: I see, so one of the lead producers/designer for OoT isn't the authority on what the game and the story is about? So if the designers and creators aren't the people who know what is the truth then who is?

L64: The information in the games themselves.

Tal-N: What was the war started by?

L64: Greed for the Triforce, as the LttP manual says.

The Real Link: If the Twinrova in the OoA/OoS was different than the Twinrova in OoT I think it would have said so in the game, or at least hinted at it. Neither of which happened in the Oracle games.

L64: If they were different witches then they would have no knowledge of Ganon or the Sacred Realm or the Sages' Seal.

The Real Link: Who the hell knows where Twinrova went when they died, but we do know that they are witches, posessing many great powers. Wherever they went to, they probably found a way to get back to Hyrule using magic.

L64: If Ganon could not do it, then how could they? I think the witches that released Ganon in the Oracles were the witches that were not killed in the past. The future was changed after all.

Tal-N: It was never said that Impa wasn't the same person who was always looking after Zelda, some people just assume it's someone else because the Impa from OoT looks so drastically different from the ones seen later on.

L64: Compared to Komue and Kotake who look exactly the same as the ones in OoT and strive for the same goal.
L is real

"Compared to Komue and Kotake who look exactly the same as the ones in OoT and strive for the same goal."
So does ganondorf, the only reason we know it's the same person is cause they said so.

"If they were different witches then they would have no knowledge of Ganon or the Sacred Realm or the Sages' Seal."
Yeah it's not as if they could have just heard it from legends and stories that anyone in Hyrule after ALttP would have known..... or from the sprirts of the original Twinrova.... Or the Goddess of Evil represented on the Spirit Temple.

"Greed for the Triforce, as the LttP manual says"
I'd like a quote of it saying the Fierce War started because of that please.

As for dismissing what one of the key people working on the game itself says, that is complete foolishness. Miyamoto didn't write the storyline for OoT either he was just a supervisor and a producer the person who wrote the script was someone called Toru Osawa and was assisted by Kensuke Tanabe. So by that definition anything Miyamoto says can also be dismissed.

The fact is that every person who worked on OoT had to intimately know the game, the character designers had to understand the history of Hyrule and the events in the game when designing clothes and the looks of characyers so that it looks authentic and had historic meaning in somecases. This isn't like it was a massive team of people who simply worked on a little corner of stuff with no understanding of the rest, the whole character design staff was only 4 people and two of which were also programmers.

So what they say is quite literally fact, it's as simple as that.

Tal-N: So does ganondorf, the only reason we know it's the same person is cause they said so.

L64: When did they say that in the Oracles, LoZ and LttP? They have not said it's the same Ganon just as they have not said that it is the same Link. But because they all look the same and act the same, we all just assume that they are all the same Ganon and Link or that they are all different.

Tal-N: Yeah it's not as if they could have just heard it from legends and stories that anyone in Hyrule after ALttP would have known..... or from the sprirts of the original Twinrova.... Or the Goddess of Evil represented on the Spirit Temple.

L64: I am just saying that the issue is another factor in the odds against them being different witches.

Tal-N: I'd like a quote of it saying the Fierce War started because of that please.

Many aggressively searched for the wish granting Triforce, but no one, not even the Hylian sages, was sure of its location; the knowledge had been lost over time. Some said the Triforce lay under the desert, others said that it was in the cemetary in the shadow of Death Mountain, but no one ever found it. That yearing for the Triforce soon turned to lust for power, which in turn led to the spilling of blood. Soon the only motive left among those searching for the Triforce was pure greed.

Tal-N: As for dismissing what one of the key people working on the game itself says, that is complete foolishness.

L64: That guy was not a key person to the project.

Tal-N: Miyamoto didn't write the storyline for OoT either he was just a supervisor and a producer the person who wrote the script was someone called Toru Osawa and was assisted by Kensuke Tanabe. So by that definition anything Miyamoto says can also be dismissed.

L64: He guides the direction of the storyline. If he approves what a writer wants to put in a game, then it becomes canon. What Miyamoto may think outside of the game however is a different story. If he approves a game with the direction of there being one Link yet personally believes that there are many Links all throught the storyline, then the story with one Link is canon and his opinion is not. That is until he impliments his opinion into a game AND it does not contradict what has already been established.
L is real

Tal-N: The fact is that every person who worked on OoT had to intimately know the game, the character designers had to understand the history of Hyrule and the events in the game when designing clothes and the looks of characyers so that it looks authentic and had historic meaning in somecases. This isn't like it was a massive team of people who simply worked on a little corner of stuff with no understanding of the rest, the whole character design staff was only 4 people and two of which were also programmers.

L64: Yeah, so? They had to know the story of the Imprisoning War in order to completely change the story of OoT so they would not be the same and they needed to know how to secretly suggest that the IW came before OoT. I don't see your point.

Tal-N: So what they say is quite literally fact, it's as simple as that.

L64: Not until it is implimented into a game.
L is real

"Many aggressively searched for the wish granting Triforce, but no one, not even the Hylian sages, was sure of its location; the knowledge had been lost over time. Some said the Triforce lay under the desert, others said that it was in the cemetary in the shadow of Death Mountain, but no one ever found it. That yearing for the Triforce soon turned to lust for power, which in turn led to the spilling of blood. Soon the only motive left among those searching for the Triforce was pure greed."

That doesn't say anything about the Fierce War being started by the Triforce. You need to learn the difference between your interpetation of a passage of text and what it actually says. You think it speaks of the Fierce Wars, I look at it and see it's speaking simply of a time when people searched for it. No mention of a war at all.

That guy was not a key person to the project
Everyone on a game has access to a copy of the design brief for the project, the artists especially need to understand what they were working on. You don't honestly think that someone on the team didn't have a clue about what the game was about do you?

Not until it is implimented into a game.
What kind of reasoning is that? That nothing they say is genuine until it's implemented into the game? In every interview they said that OoT was the first story in the line, yet your saying that until it actually says in the game it's the first story then it's not true? You're a lunatic if you won't accept what the developers say until it's repeated in a game!

Tal-N: That doesn't say anything about the Fierce War being started by the Triforce. You need to learn the difference between your interpetation of a passage of text and what it actually says. You think it speaks of the Fierce Wars, I look at it and see it's speaking simply of a time when people searched for it. No mention of a war at all.

L64: It talks about the spilling of blood, and because it happened long before OoT, the Shiekah were still around. They were a race mentioned in the race wars, though I don't recall where the quote of Goron against Zora or Sheikah against Gerudo came from.
Anyway, the intro to LttP depicts an army and many fallen soldiers. This suggests a war between nations or tribes.

Tal-N: Everyone on a game has access to a copy of the design brief for the project, the artists especially need to understand what they were working on. You don't honestly think that someone on the team didn't have a clue about what the game was about do you?

L64: A graphic artist gets his model and is told to paint it. He then works on the texture mapping and model adjustments. So no, artists do not need to read the storyline, they just need to be told what to make the character look like. This is done with sketches and stuff like that.

Tal-N: What kind of reasoning is that? That nothing they say is genuine until it's implemented into the game?

L64: Correct.

Tal-N: In every interview they said that OoT was the first story in the line, yet your saying that until it actually says in the game it's the first story then it's not true? You're a lunatic if you won't accept what the developers say until it's repeated in a game!

L64: At one time LoZ was the first game in the series and the writers said so themselves. Then years later OoT was created and it was said to be the first. Their opinoin changed, and the game did as well to fit the storyline.
OoT did prove itself to be the first by creating Link's history of growing up in Kokiri Forest. This is how I know that OoT was the first game in the series... to DATE that is.
L is real

"Anyway, the intro to LttP depicts an army and many fallen soldiers. This suggests a war between nations or tribes."
Or the Imprisioning War, or the Fierce War, or one of the raids Ganon makes on Hyrule.. or a re-enactment of Mcbeth gone terribly wrong. This another case in point where you need to realise the difference between what is evidence and what is conjecture. Anything visual like that isn't evidence since it's open to multiple interpretations due to the limited information on what is happening or has happened.

A graphic artist gets his model and is told to paint it. He then works on the texture mapping and model adjustments. So no, artists do not need to read the storyline, they just need to be told what to make the character look like. This is done with sketches and stuff like that.
More thought goes into how a character looks and what they wear than you realise, a character designer not only handled the models, textures and animations. They also handle the previsualisation stages which involves masses of drawing. Designing places like the Temple of Time, Zelda ect.. all require a knowledge of what is happening in the game and a history of Hyrule so that it's represented in the games environment. They don't just sit down and hammer out random designs for environments, bosses, enemies and characters.

They also animate the cut scenes remember so they'd need to know the story.

At one time LoZ was the first game in the series and the writers said so themselves. Then years later OoT was created and it was said to be the first. Their opinoin changed, and the game did as well to fit the storyline.

It's their story, they say what happens in it. We don't determine what happens in it therefore we rely on them to tell us what is happening. Yes it'll change over time, they will add new games but as it stands with current information there is a wealth of information from the existing games and from developer quotes that the IW didn't happen before OoT.

Like i said in the other topic, come back with solid evidence rather than assumptions if you want to keep this discussion going with me cause at the moment you're waffling on without reason nor rational points of view.