The Romance Thread IV: The Debate Continues

The sentence? Ah, nevermind it.

I agree with you on the backgrounds, but I still try. :/

I agree with you on the backgrounds, but I still try. :/

Most of the times I try I get impatient and stop halfway through. But at the moment I'm more fixated in drawing better expressions anyway, so I don't really have to do any backgrounds.

Originally Posted by The Goron Moron

*Face palm* No. I just believe that TP Link has a lot of dominance but not a lot, and that would hold the same for OoT Link. And he didn't cower like a ninny, he was just startled.

Yes, I'm also an artist. As for FF..... good luck with it. I don't think there's too many LinkxGanondorf fics, but then again I could be wrong. There's around thirteen thousand fics there....

I've observed since before you guys even actively participated in the debate, which means back when me and Ganonslayer were debating with Gliderpilot and Blackfire, that Ganonslayer tends to hear what he wants to hear. It's kind of like how Turk describes women to be in Scrubs, when he does a terrible impression of Keith in order to get Keith in trouble with Elliot (who is a girl, in case you don't watch Scrubs) and Carla.

...So basically, I messed up.

Originally Posted by Yayu

Or they are just friendly people who like to help others. (And I'd be scared if I'd be scolded like that...)
I still they he isn't a follower, but just friendly and helpful.

Yeah I agree with you on Link being helpful. And follower really isn't something negative. Its just a personality type that matches Link's quiet and gentle in game character. Link is definitely not an assertive leader type like Zelda, so the follower personality best matches his IMO. But I don't see it as anything negative against Link and its more of something that makes him endearing if anything.

But why can't Link be quiet and gentle witout being a follower? I know it isn't meant as negative, but... I'd be somewhat of a follower for example and Link is nothing like me. I just can't see him as the type who follows all those orders because he's a follower and doesn't have a reason (achieving his goal) for it. I don't see him doing something what someone else says he should do when it isn't for helping someone or doesn't gain him something.

Originally Posted by Yayu

But why can't Link be quiet and gentle witout being a follower? I know it isn't meant as negative, but... I'd be somewhat of a follower for example and Link is nothing like me. I just can't see him as the type who follows all those orders because he's a follower and doesn't have a reason (achieving his goal) for it. I don't see him doing something what someone else says he should do when it isn't for helping someone or doesn't gain him something.

The thing is that he is a follower. The only time he's actually taken charge of a situation in OoT is when he stole Epona from Ingo and then got the ranch back to Talon, something that actually helped Malon...

But we never see him when he doesn't have to do things other people tell him to do because he needs to rescue Hyrule or wants to help someone. I see a mature, adult (hen he's around 20) version of Link somewhat like Raven from the OoA Manga. He follows orders too and is a very kind and gentle person, but he takes charge of the situation when he needs too (like Link with Ingo) and is anything but a follower.

Originally Posted by Yayu

But we never see him when he doesn't have to do things other people tell him to do because he needs to rescue Hyrule or wants to help someone. I see a mature, adult (hen he's around 20) version of Link somewhat like Raven from the OoA Manga. He follows orders too and is a very kind and gentle person, but he takes charge of the situation when he needs too (like Link with Ingo) and is anything but a follower.

I also emphasized his change of character in that situation to back up my support of a LinkxMalon relationship, since he's going out of his way and changing his character for something that isn't even all that important to his mission.

But... did he even know that Ingo would revert back to his normal self after that? I don't remember that scene all that good, since it's been a while since I played the game, but I think that you just go to Ingo, pay for riding a horse, have to beat in a race twice and then jump over the fence.
But even if it was about Malon, she was still a person who needed help. You could still be right though that it could mean she's special to him.

I guess if you go by the Manga's interpretation of Link's character you are right Yayu. In game character wise OOT Link whether as a child or as an adult and with the exception of him voluntarily helping Malon of course, Link just seemed to be politely following orders throughout the entire quest. From when the Deku Tree died to when he politely obeyed Zelda like a sweet & innocent child in giving her back the ocarina in the scene in the sky. So to answer your question, No..Link cannot be a leader of people like Zelda with this type of pure & innocent follower personality. I'm sure of it.

Most of the time he has to follow orders, so he can fullfill his goal. If he hadn't obeyed Rauru and gone to the temples, Hyrule would have been destroyed. If he hadn't obeyed Ruto, chances are that he wouldn't have got the last sacred stone and Hyrule would have been destroyed. If he hadn't followed what Sheik told him to, Hyrule would have been destroyed.
We don't know if Link normally follows orders because he never gets the choice not do.
Even in the scene with Zelda he didn't have it. Link isn't stupid, he'd understand that Zelda would know the best what to do and she also explained her reasons. The portal between past and future had to be closed. And again, Link had to do what he was told, again, he had no choice.
The scene with Malon is one of the few scenes in the game where he has that choice, since he didn't clearly know what would be the best thing to do. When he helps the cucco lady (which is also completely optional if I remember correctly, so Link doesn't have to do what she says, he wants to help her) he knows exactly what to do to help, getting her cuccos back. When the cursed family in Kakariko asks him for help, he is again told what he has to do if he wants to help them - but he doesn't have to. It's the players decision, there's nothing forcing Link to help them or the cucco lady but the player himself. He isn't told what to do when he is helping Malon though, so it's one of the few situations where he has to improvise - and he displays the ability to. He can decide what to do, if he gets the choice to decide what to do.

True..but my arguement is that OOT/MM Link is not stupid but just a sweet & simple minded child who has self esteem issues and needs to follow orders from other people to cope with his inherent loneliness as a kokiri social outcast. Thats why I say he is more of a follower than a leader like Zelda. Being a follower doesn't mean Link is stupid. Maybe simple minded but not stupid.

I didn't mean to imply that you meant he was stupid. I'm just opposed to the idea that he needs to follow orders. I think he's following them because he knows that the people giving him orders are right and know what has to be done or, as in the case of Ruto, it's making achieving his goal easier.
I also remember that the the Kokiris were always pretty friendly when I talked to them and only Mido was mean, so I don't think he'd have to react in such a way to his situation, especially after coming to Hyrule and finding friends pretty quickly. He isn't lonely anymore and he wouldn't follow orders just for the sake of following orders but because he knows it' the for the best. If Sheik had told him to do something incredibly stupid that couldn't be right, he wouldn't have done it.
I really can't see him as the extreme case of a follower as you portray him to be with the evidence given. If I could, I would support the idea, since I know it isn't negative - I'm not quite a leader myself. And I think his ability to do both - follow orders and decide himself when needed - fits better with the courage aspect of his personality. It takes courage to follow orders and it takes courage to go against them. In one case to find the courage in yourself to trust a person enough to follow his order in matters of the same importance as Link deals with and in the other case to be courageous enough to do what you think is right and be prepared to take the blame on yourself if you fail.

I generally agree with you in the way you phrased your post. True if Sheik told him to jump off a cliff he woudn't do it. All I'm saying is that Link is not a traditional MALE leader hero like say literary heroes like Achilles or Beowulf who are assertive, loud & boastful, but effective leaders of men. Link has their similar hero simple mindedness but not their leadership attributes in their personality. Hence personality wise in a realistic sense, Link is a bonafide follower without a doubt. But as I said before there is nothing negative about it and its more like AWWW how sweet, cute and adorably endearing Link is if anything. I figured being a fangirl you would prefer Link to be a follower right?? Especially in a romantic relationship with Zelda its clear that Zelda would be the leader and Link the follower without question according to in game hints and fanfics everywhere.

True if Sheik told him to jump off a cliff he woudn't do it.

I was actually considering using that as an example ^^"

Link has their similar hero simple mindedness but not their leadership attributes in their personality.

True. If your definition of a follower is as wide as you suggest, he could be seen as a follower. I just think that not having those traits doesn't automatically make him a follower. Again, just look at Raven. He's following orders when he thinks they're right, he doesn't if he thinks they aren't.

But its not nearly as negative as you are making it out to be.

I did? I'm sorry then, that was never my intention.

I figured being a fangirl you would prefer Link to be a follower right??

Who says I'm a Link fangirl? Besides, completely submissive man are not my type.

Especially in a romantic relationship with Zelda its clear that Zelda would be the leader and Link the follower without question according to in game hints and fanfics everywhere.

I think relationships need equality to work. Sure, I love hate-love relationships and power struggles, but those are disfunctional (and isn't that why they are so awesome to write/read about?). I think Link would question Zelda if he saw reason to. I don't see why he should just so he's more of a leader.

But as I said before there is nothing negative about it and its more like AWWW how sweet, cute and adorably endearing Link is if anything.

I edited that on my previous post. I understand you didn't think I was bashing Link for being a follower. I'm sure Link would question Zelda if he had to. But he would probably be more reluctant and soft spoken about it than say an Achilles or Beowulf who are not hesitant to express their opinions to a ruler, male or female.

But as I said before there is nothing negative about it and its more like AWWW how sweet, cute and adorably endearing Link is if anything

Not to me. *pout*

He doesn't need to say "Stupid woman, let me decide, because I'm such an awesome leader." But being quite and accepting orders doesn't automatically make him a follower, that's all I want to express.
I'd have no problem supporting Link as a follower if I saw the given evidence as sufficient, but I don't, since always either has a reason to follow orders or has to. However, with the Malon situation he did display the ability to improvise and quickly make a decision for himself.
So, what I'm trying to say is rhat he neither has to be a follower nor a leader; he could be the middle thing.

I don't think nicking Epona can be used to support OoT-Link/Malon, because you don't even have to see (let alone speak to) Malon as an adult before you get Epona (and only once as a kid, to learn Epona's Song). On the other hand, you DO have to listen to Ingo boasting about his ties to "the Great Ganondorf"...

As for Adult OoT-Link, I see him as matured in mind and body - otherwise, he still wouldn't be worthy of actually using the Master Sword and being called the Hero of Time. But it's an artificial maturation, and he loses it when he returns to being a kid - he retains his memories of the adult timeline, but he loses a certain understanding of adult affairs and emotions that he didn't learn for himself.

Originally Posted by Yayu

If he hadn't obeyed Ruto, chances are that he wouldn't have got the last sacred stone and Hyrule would have been destroyed.

That one's a bad example - Zelda was wrong to think it was a good idea to gather the Spiritual Stones, and she admits as much in the Scene In The Sky. Hyrule was destroyed BECAUSE Link gathered and used them, and the Ocarina of Time - even if the Deku Tree, Darunia and Ruto had all handed the stones, and Zelda the Ocarina & Song of Time, over to Ganondorf... he would have been ultimately snookered by the Master Sword.

We see what happened when OoT-Link & Zelda ultimately held back in Twilight Princess - Hyrule's clearly been through some tough times, especially with the great chasm where Hyrule Castle Town & the Temple of Time originally were, but it's in a hellavalot better shape than in the Adult OoT timeline.

Originally Posted by Yayu

Not to me. *pout*

He doesn't need to say "Stupid woman, let me decide, because I'm such an awesome leader." But being quite and accepting orders doesn't automatically make him a follower, that's all I want to express.
I'd have no problem supporting Link as a follower if I saw the given evidence as sufficient, but I don't, since always either has a reason to follow orders or has to. However, with the Malon situation he did display the ability to improvise and quickly make a decision for himself.
So, what I'm trying to say is rhat he neither has to be a follower nor a leader; he could be the middle thing.

O cmon you know Link's gentle & sweet obedience makes you want to squeel like all the other fangirls. Ha JK. But yeah I can see Link having a middle ground as a normally matured adult in the Child Timeline for sure. Its just the in game OOT Link as a child in a mans body never gave me that impression that he was that mature. He seemed to retain the heart & mind of a forest child throughout the entire quest, only he had an adult body that allowed him to do great things to save Hyrule. (Similar Example: Captain Marvel)

But back on the topic of romance: I never got the feeling that Link was a mature adult that would know what romance is or what it feels like in any way. OOT Link in the game seems to be the ideal embodiment of the polite & obedient eternal virgin forest child who doesn't have a clue what normal adult romantic feelings are or what they feel like. Take the scene in the sky for example: It seems clear that Link actually had a choice to stay with Zelda in the Adult Timeline if he wanted to.

And I never got the impression Zelda was forcing him to go back to being a child again as some people insist. But ultimately Link chose to return to being a cute and cuddly forest child anyway. Thats proof enough that Link was pure & innocent all along and was not this super mature manly man with adult romantic feelings at all as some people believe when there is no evidence that remotely suggests that in the slightest.