The Romance Thread IV: The Debate Continues

Originally Posted by Blackfire667

I think we've already covered TP. There are not many likely match-ups: everyone HATES Ilia, Midna's gone, and Zelda seems to think she's better than Link or something like that... .

Pretty much. My gut feeling is that Link will end up with Ilia if anyone, merely for lack of a better choice. He didn't seem to have any romantic association with Zelda whatsoever ( other than what I'd call "awe" because she's gorgeous ) and she was very business-like. Midna is gone. So in my eyes, he's either single or leaves Ilia at home 99% of the time while he goes off to do his thing. Not much of a love life. I'd like to speculate about Zelda, but again, nothing real to use as evidence.

Another game we don't seem to talk much about is the other somewhat sequel to OoT. By which I mean WW. It could be because there's little romantic competition, and they are kids. I thought it was very obvious that Link likes Tetra ( over say, Medli ) and things would happen when they grew up. Thoughts?

Personally I'd rather have Link choose Fado over Illia but thats just me. To me TP Link would be better off living in and around Hyrule Castle serving on Zeldas court as a high ranking knight who only answers to Zelda and not some wussy Hyrule general. But its still uncomfirmed bachelor for me as I felt that final scene with Illia holding her heart as it was breaking as final evidence that Link formally ended his childhood romance with her as he rode away. At best she is a beloved little sister to Link IMO.

In WW, the only alternatives I can think of is Medi and the Jar girl from Outset island. I have even read someone posting that the teacher at Windfall is a possible alternate love interest. At least until WW Link finally grows up.

Originally Posted by Ganonslayer2000

But its still uncomfirmed bachelor for me as I felt that final scene with Illia holding her heart as it was breaking as final evidence that Link formally ended his childhood romance with her as he rode away. At best she is a beloved little sister to Link IMO.

I'm not so sure: that holding her heart can mean, " I believe in my heart that you will return" like with Zelda in MM. But the emphasis seemed to be on "He's gone" though, as shown by his empty window and him riding away from Ordon. It's very hard to tell.

As for the sisterly thing ( and I'm trying not to repeat myself ) I can't agree with that. When he found her in Castletown and especially when her memory returned, all the markers of romance where there. But if it did fail in the end, I think it would be more of a "not meant to be" thing rather than him outright not loving her. ( Like Saria ) He'd still love her, just he wouldn't pursue a romantic relationship. ( She may still chase him though )

Originally Posted by Ganonslayer2000

In WW, the only alternatives I can think of is Medli and the Jar girl from Outset island. I have even read someone posting that the teacher at Windfall is a possible alternate love interest. At least until WW Link finally grows up.

I think Medli is the best alternative honestly. She's very open and honest with Link, and he actually spent a good amount of time with her. And that "falling into Link's arms" right in time for Komali to see seems to be classic "misunderstanding" territory for Komali. Ultimately though, I think the game ( and fate ) led Link right to Zelda/Tetra though. They left together in the end of the game, kind of eliminating Medli. PH is totally Link x Zelda too, it's painfully obvious Link likes Tetra.
The jar girl? She's got to be +8-10 years from him at least. And Ms Marie? She's like 50! Maybe a little kid like him would have a crush on them, but nothing would ever come of it.

LOL!! Yeah..I'm not to crazy about the Ms.Marie hookup myself. I just like the jar girl for the simple fact that you can break her jars with various items. Then you can talk to her and hear her sob saying "how could you??" or something like that. For me that can never get old. But yeah...I agree with you in that Medi can be a really cute and cuddly match for Link. Yet its more overwhelming for a LinkxTetra.

You bring up a good point on how TP Link was still emotionally attached to Illia and he seemed very disappointed that Illia did not remember him at Telmas bar. For me that was a turning point in my own personal attachment to Illia as a love interest. And then there was the pretensiously and predictably touching cutscene of Illia finally acknowledging Links existence and thanking him for his help in going on the escort mission. I don't remember what Illia said, but after that cutscene I lost total empathy for her and I felt like Link was more attracted to Telma after she flirted with him and made him smile and sigh. So by the time I revived Illia's memory I was like WHOOPTEE DOO and I felt more gravitated to Ashei as a love interest for Link than Illia.

Originally Posted by Ganonslayer2000

You bring up a good point on how TP Link was still emotionally attached to Illia and he seemed very disappointed that Illia did not remember him at Telmas bar. For me that was a turning point in my own personal attachment to Illia as a love interest. And then there was the pretensiously and predictably touching cutscene of Illia finally acknowledging Links existence and thanking him for his help in going on the escort mission. I don't remember what Illia said, but after that cutscene I lost total empathy for her and I felt like Link was more attracted to Telma after she flirted with him and made him smile and sigh. So by the time I revived Illia's memory I was like WHOOPTEE DOO and I felt more gravitated to Ashei as a love interest for Link than Illia.

Ilia is somewhat immature in a way and her personality is somewhat still child like. However, she is a woman that Link sees as a love opportunity, but I think he cares for her as much as a sister than anything else. It might have developed stronger when Ilia's memory was lost, but I think the amount of pressure and the world's existence on Link's shoulders was probably enough to not see Ilia as much as a deep love interest.

Telma did somewhat flirt with Link, but I don't think he understands body language in a sexual manner any doubt. I don't think that Link has experienced anything that is related to love, apart from his own inner emotional feelings. The way Telma winked at him and blew him a kiss, Link smiled back which meant that he probably percieved it as a friendly gesture as he is not familiar with it. If he did know what Telma was giving him, I would suspect another reaction of some sort. I think Link is either shy or has little knowledge of love and sexual themes.

I think Ashei is more interested in the Yeti's existence than Link's. Just pointing that out... She just seems, not Link's type and there is definately no interest with each other whatsoever.

True...Ashei is just my own personal preference thats all. I'm totally aware of lack of game evidence but the same can be said for Zelda as well. And besides, butchy amazon warrior women need some loving too.

But I agree on your point on TP Links lack of social and sexual experience as evidenced by his sometimes cartoonishly shy and gentle nature. As for Telma flirting with him I'm sure Link was more like "Gee whiz this lady seems more interesting than that misshapen melon headed Illia". But I still see Telma as the really cool older sister that Link can always visit and talk to. And IMO I find her less annoying than Illia anyway.

Originally Posted by Ganonslayer2000

True...Ashei is just my own personal preference thats all. I'm totally aware of lack of game evidence but the same can be said for Zelda as well. And besides, butchy amazon warrior women need some loving too.

But I agree on your point on TP Links lack of social and sexual experience as evidenced by his sometimes cartoonishly shy and gentle nature. As for Telma flirting with him I'm sure Link was more like "Gee whiz this lady seems more interesting than that misshapen melon headed Illia". But I still see Telma as the really cool older sister that Link can always visit and talk to. And IMO I find her less annoying than Illia anyway.

Telma is more advanced and mature with her identity and emotions than Ilia, clearly because she is much older. Ilia might still have the female teenager trantrums that girls normally get, but definately she will grow out of them and into a fine, young mature woman of her own.
Link might have developed some sort of bond with Telma, but I don't think it is something that relates to love. Perhaps a deep friendship or as your have said, an older sister that he can look up to. You also have to consider the fact that she did support him through turmoil and hard times throughout his adventure.
Also, Colin's father is one of the members of the secret team that lurks in Telma's bar as you progress through the game.

Apart from Link, I think a lot of other people like Telma as well.

Originally Posted by Eternal Legend

Ilia is somewhat immature in a way and her personality is somewhat still child like. However, she is a woman that Link sees as a love opportunity, but I think he cares for her as much as a sister than anything else. It might have developed stronger when Ilia's memory was lost, but I think the amount of pressure and the world's existence on Link's shoulders was probably enough to not see Ilia as much as a deep love interest.

I think there's two perspectives in that relationship: Ilia's and Link's.

When I look at Ilia, I see an immature girl who was forced by circumstance to "let go" of him ( as she had no memory to cause her worry ) and when she did regain her memory of Link, he had already proven himself to her. She's now in the mindset to truly release him and her feelings have probably never been stronger.

When I look at Link, I saw great pain and hurt when she couldn't remember but I think it was done on purpose. Ilia being inaccessible to him essentially resulted in him having less attachment to Kakariko and her, and instead Telma redirected him to saving Hyrule. In this he learned to think about others, and it gave the Link x Midna relationship time to grow. By the time Ilia's memory returned, I think he was changed quite a bit. I will always feel that scene was out of place because of that. But the change in Link and later adventures with Midna may have eventually led to him and Ilia's relationship becoming more one-sided. Did anyone else get the feeling nothing in Ordon had really changed in the end, except for Link?

Yes I did. By the end of TP I felt Link had grown and matured to the point that he needed to move on to bigger and better things outside of life in Ordon. I felt that maybe Link could better protect and benefit the people he cares about in Ordon by serving in Zeldas court as the new resident hero of Hyrule, instead of going back to the way things were and continue to live a life in Ordon that would never change.

The reason Link and Ilia are so immature or naive is that they have lived very shelter lives on the border of Hyrule, far from the main HUB: Castletown. Ilia is kidnapped and dumped somewhere strange and un-familiar, likely the stress caused the memory loss(But she's still a somewhat petulant child at heart). Link, meanwhile, is forced into his destiny as a Hero chosen by the Gods and must save his friends and all of Hyrule from an Evil Dark lord! This causes him to mature very quickly to fill the 'big shoes' left behind by the last hero. Meanwhile: Ilia is confused and lost, not maturing in the least bit until Link restores her memory. So: Link has pretty much become a man, ready for life in 'the real world' and Ilia is still just a child with some trauma....

Originally Posted by Blackfire667

The reason Link and Ilia are so immature or naive is that they have lived very shelter lives on the border of Hyrule, far from the main HUB: Castletown. Ilia is kidnapped and dumped somewhere strange and un-familiar, likely the stress caused the memory loss(But she's still a somewhat petulant child at heart). Link, meanwhile, is forced into his destiny as a Hero chosen by the Gods and must save his friends and all of Hyrule from an Evil Dark lord! This causes him to mature very quickly to fill the 'big shoes' left behind by the last hero. Meanwhile: Ilia is confused and lost, not maturing in the least bit until Link restores her memory. So: Link has pretty much become a man, ready for life in 'the real world' and Ilia is still just a child with some trauma....

Agreed. See, I run into alot of confusion with her. I felt the game really pushed for her and Link to be seen as "the couple", yet they shot themselves in the foot twice: her tantrum ( making the average player dislike her ) and then giving her amnesia. ( Short-circuiting any character development ) Despite this, it seems we are supposed to believe she's really a sweet-hearted girl ( as the game claims based on her actions with Ralis ) who's got Link's heart taken. ( The reunion scene )

Overall, I'd call this a mark of really bad story-telling...or mixed messages. Possibly stemming from a badly done attempt to appeal to everyone.

Continuing: Midna on the other hand..she's built up from also being nasty into someone worth loving based on merit and her new heart, not just an assumption we'll like her because we are told to. ( Ilia ) But then they break the mirror, leaving us with nothing. I can honestly say I dislike TP as a game and this is a good part of it.

WW on the other hand I thought was essentially Link x a Midna( Tetra ) done right. A Love-hate relationship that blossoms into more, yet they don't kill the relationship at the end. And the sisterly character ( Aryll ) was far more likable than Ilia.

As you pointed out TP had its flaws in its storyline. Especially with Illia who goes from being a main character to almost completely irrelevant after the escort mission. The whole Midna thing was like the game makers were going for an unrequited love type theme with the mirror being shattered. But I like the concept that the vagueness of Links love life at the end of TP is simply just left up to the players imagination. Will Link end up with a random Hyrule town girl or maybe focus on trying to impress Zelda with his heroic deeds to finally get her to notice him?? Who knows. But I like to speculate that Link could end up with Zelda, but it would seem that it would be harder for Link to woo TP Zelda as she seems more to be this untouchable and unattainable goddess. Where as OOT Zelda had more of an approachable and attainable quality about her to make a LinkxZelda more possible. But for now TP Link can only be an admirer from afar who can only dream that one day Zelda may notice him as a romantic interest and not just as the hero of Hyrule under her royal command.

TP's plot being full of holes is right. Why did Ilia and the other gets kidnapped? Why did Zant not just have Zelda, Link, and Midna killed instead of locking Zelda in a tower and transforming Link and Midna?

As for the Link/Midna bit...I don't think their "relationship" has much to stand on. They really don't have that much in common except a desire to stop Zant, and once he's gone there's no common ground between them. She lives in another realm, is responsible for another people, and belongs to another culture. Hell, it's amazing she and Link even speak the same language.

Originally Posted by Månegarm

As for the Link/Midna bit...I don't think their "relationship" has much to stand on. They really don't have that much in common except a desire to stop Zant, and once he's gone there's no common ground between them. She lives in another realm, is responsible for another people, and belongs to another culture. Hell, it's amazing she and Link even speak the same language.

But does that change the fact they have chemistry? ( in this player's opinion, not everyone will agree on that ) I would just guess it means that the relationship won't go anywhere. It was pretty much doomed to fail from the beginning based on what you listed. Unrequited love definately sucks. I'd rather see a relationship formed between two people where it actually can work ( eg, Link and Zelda ) or merely done properly. ( Link and Ilia )

Originally Posted by ganonslayer

But I like the concept that the vagueness of Links love life at the end of TP is simply just left up to the players imagination.

I actually don't consider much to be vague at all in the end. My only question is, did he dump Ilia or not? This whole "being Link" thing was damaged IMO by the amount of emotion they gave him in the game, he definately had his preferences. For them to suddenly hand us the controller and say, "The game's over: you decide" feels a bit awkward.

In facial expressions maybe TP Link had more emotion. But I figured that was a result of the makers wanting to give Link more expressions with using modern techology in order to improve upon the standard OOT/MM Link with that same ridiculous looking frozen wide eyed blank stare. But IMO I thought TP Link stayed true to the beloved personality of the unassertive but sweet gentle natured and soft spoken Link from OOT. I only meant vague as to who he ends up with romantically in TP. In the end it was obvious Link chose to leave Ordon. As to how long who knows, and though I hate Illia and I would like to think that Link left her heartbroken, I admit that maybe he gave her hope to believe that he would soon return to her one day and settle down. Still...I would hope that Link would try to pursue Zelda instead of Illia for sure.

Originally Posted by Ganonslayer2000

In facial expressions maybe TP Link had more emotion. But I figured that was a result of the makers wanting to give Link more expressions with using modern techology in order to improve upon the standard OOT/MM Link with that same ridiculous looking frozen wide eyed blank stare. But IMO I thought TP Link stayed true to the beloved personality of the unassertive but sweet gentle natured and soft spoken Link from OOT. I only meant vague as to who he ends up with romantically in TP. In the end it was obvious Link chose to leave Ordon. As to how long who knows, and though I hate Illia and I would like to think that Link left her heartbroken, I admit that maybe he gave her hope to believe that he would soon return to her one day and settle down. Still...I would hope that Link would try to pursue Zelda instead of Illia for sure.

People change and Ilia would change into becoming a fine woman indeed. However, Link has already witnessed her child like tantrums when things don't agree with her. Perhaps the close bond that Link developed with Midna made him more mature to leave town to find someone else. Perhaps taking a holiday away from his everyday life in Ordon or maybe an ultimate fairwell.

I think Ilia does have a crush on Link to a degree that you can see her begging during the credits, but I am not sure if Link would want to consider going back to her. Who knows?

Maybe the battle that he endured together with Zelda realises to him that he is more than a goat herder of Ordon.

If they really wanted a true romantic connection between Link and anyone, they'd've continued on further with things like AoL's ending, Ilia's scenes in TP, or Midna's relation to Link. I've stopped taking such things for granted a long time ago. Even longer then, I've stopped caring about any of the rumors. Things like "They shoud've kissed!" "They're ******ing related!" "She was only in one game!" "She was a minor character in this game!". None of these implications are beyond one's instinctive bias. My "instinctive bias" is now to stop giving a ****, and only look at such things as what they are: less than implications. The onyl one that I think is a laughable excuse of an option is Zelink in TP. Everything else I stopped bothering to get involved in.

In all seriousness, I'm more the guy who thinks that they should eventually give all the girls the backseat in favor of not a sidekick, but a secondary protagonist. I think the "Bros before hoes" concept is the way to go now.

Besides, we all know where Link took a quick peek when talking with Telma >_> If there's anything that needs to be known there, it's that he's just an average hormonal teenager

Originally Posted by Lunar6

Besides, we all know where Link took a quick peek when talking with Telma >_> If there's anything that needs to be known there, it's that he's just an average hormonal teenager

I wonder why this hasn't applied with Link in OoT whenever Ruto was around him to see. He surely was a grown teenager with hormones raging, but he didn't even seem to 'stare' at Ruto or other woman in those areas. Maybe because he was straight away thrown into a grown body and didn't realise such 'urges' or that existed.

I don't think in TP that the stare was an indication that Link was 'interested' in the opposite gender parts. I think he was afraid in a way at their size or to the fact that it could all as well be an accident that he looked at that place. She did look as though she would fall on top on him.

...I was being sarcastic >_>

Originally Posted by Lunar6

In all seriousness, I'm more the guy who thinks that they should eventually give all the girls the backseat in favor of not a sidekick, but a secondary protagonist. I think the "Bros before hoes" concept is the way to go now.

What if Zelda was the secondary protagonist? If there's anyone in the entire game ( other than a completely new character to be created ) that could fill those shoes, I think it would be her. I've seen the playable Zelda threads and I love the idea, as I did also with the endings of WW and TP when they teamed up on Ganondorf. She's got an entirely different set of skills than Link has, they could team up for great effect. ( Like Paper Mario with Peach )

In terms of romance, if Link and Zelda were to be working together over the period of an adventure, that's a classic set up for romance. I think they were trying this with Midna, but felt the need to "balance it out", once again to give the plethora of love interests each a chance. And they watered down what they had for that.