The Romance Thread IV: The Debate Continues

Responding to this from "The Case for Kingship" ( an old thread revived and now locked )

Originally Posted by KrytenKoro

This certainly seems to be the case in TLoz/TAoL, TMC, and TWW/PH - though in the Great Sea pair, Tetra doesn't actually seem to be the ruler of anything but a boat.

However, in many of them he and Zelda are not much more than allies.

In TP, he clearly has feelings for Ilia, and he doesn't have that much of an outsider feeling to him - while he has gone on an adventure, it is implied that Bo has as well - he settled down. While he may not have saved Hyrule...but in any case, Zelda is almost a non-character in the game. I'll admit Midna would be a better match, but that ends up being impossible, and his romance with Ilia drives a meaningful bit of plot.

TP is probably the only one I will agree on Link having slim to no chance of marrying Zelda, mainly because he did not interact with her at all. But regardless of Bo's ( and likely Rusl too ) adventurous past, Link is a special case: he's a chosen hero, not a mere adventurer like them. His calling is likely for life, though it depends on what you believe in that regard. He carries the Triforce of Courage, and effectively takes up the mantle of the kingdom's new defender. That was the feeling I took away from the Hero's Spirit passing his knowledge on to the next Hero. Romantically? I have no doubt he loved Ilia..but she's small potatoes compared to the life he's now faced with, IMO. Link also seemed to grow romantically attached to Midna in this player's view..and that should shake some serious doubt in terms of his fidelity to Ilia.
I just don't think it would work after the adventure.

Originally Posted by KrytenKoro

In ALttP/LA, OoA/OoS, and FS/FSA, he doesn't really have any more interaction with Zelda than with the other Shrine Maidens/Oracles/etc. Meanwhile, in LA he has VERY strong interaction with Marin (and if the good ending is interpreted the way some see it, a continued relationship is possible), and in OoA/OoS he has a strong relationship with Din (made even more clear in the manga). While Marin may be impossible - maybe she's not truly human anymore, and instead lives with the Wind Fish, who knows - him being with Din would closely parallel Ralph and Nayru - he wouldn't be king, but he still would able to help a lot of people, and he does a lot for Din in that game, whereas Zelda shows up...and just gets rescued. She does give him a kiss, but...it's not really that romantic of one, anyway.

FS/FSA I would strongly disagree on...it's about the feeling, and he definately had something more with Zelda. I've never played the Oracles or LA, so I can't comment that well on them. I do know Zelda was represented in Link's dream as Marin..and he fell in love with her. What happens next is a who knows.

Originally Posted by KrytenKoro

OoT/MM, odd case.

Though Link and Zelda clearly have a bond, that only exists in the "Adult Timeline" - and unless there is some way for the split timeline to be interpreted where the events of the Adult still happen - they have no connection. Maybe he stays in Termina for a while, and marries Romani? Or he returns, and marries Malon (or Ruto, since he did promise to...)? Or he remains a bachelor, and it it up to other descendants of TMC Link to continue the line of heroes. In either case, so long as time itself is truly split (which, by varying definitions of timeline, it may not be - timelines can be personal, after all...), Link was nothing more than a particularly dedicated Hylian Knight.

Not true at all. See the scene where Zelda gives him the Ocarina in the beginning of MM, which is within the Child Timeline. We know from the game info: ( Games : Legend of Zelda, The: Majora's Mask) that MM is three months after the end of OoT. And look what she says..

Originally Posted by Zelda

You are already leaving this land
of Hyrule, aren't you?

Even though it was only a short
time, I feel like I've known you
forever.

I'll never forget the days we
spent together in Hyrule...

And I believe in my heart that a
day will come when I shall meet
you again...

Until that day comes, please...
Take this..."

This whole scene was deep and definately implied a deep and strong bond between them. The Song of Time is even called a song that reminds them of each other...and this is after the adventure of OoT when they are kids again.
We don't know what happened to them, and his fate seems to be fairly open, but I strongly feel he returned to her, if only because his relationship with her seemed the deepest.
I think Link was more than a knight, if only because there mysteriously happens to be a suit of Royal Armor, that seems perfectly made for the next Hero. There's only one person in Hyrule who would wear that who pre-existed TP Link. The previous Hero, aka MM Link.

I posted this on the other thread, but it was locked, so...

This certainly seems to be the case in TLoz/TAoL, TMC, and TWW/PH - though in the Great Sea pair, Tetra doesn't actually seem to be the ruler of anything but a boat.

However, in many of them he and Zelda are not much more than allies.

In TP, he clearly has feelings for Ilia, and he doesn't have that much of an outsider feeling to him - while he has gone on an adventure, it is implied that Bo has as well - he settled down. While he may not have saved Hyrule...but in any case, Zelda is almost a non-character in the game. I'll admit Midna would be a better match, but that ends up being impossible, and his romance with Ilia drives a meaningful bit of plot.

In ALttP/LA, OoA/OoS, and FS/FSA, he doesn't really have any more interaction with Zelda than with the other Shrine Maidens/Oracles/etc. Meanwhile, in LA he has VERY strong interaction with Marin (and if the good ending is interpreted the way some see it, a continued relationship is possible), and in OoA/OoS he has a strong relationship with Din (made even more clear in the manga). While Marin may be impossible - maybe she's not truly human anymore, and instead lives with the Wind Fish, who knows - him being with Din would closely parallel Ralph and Nayru - he wouldn't be king, but he still would able to help a lot of people, and he does a lot for Din in that game, whereas Zelda shows up...and just gets rescued. She does give him a kiss, but...it's not really that romantic of one, anyway.

OoT/MM, odd case.

Though Link and Zelda clearly have a bond, that only exists in the "Adult Timeline" - and unless there is some way for the split timeline to be interpreted where the events of the Adult still happen - they have no connection. Maybe he stays in Termina for a while, and marries Romani? Or he returns, and marries Malon (or Ruto, since he did promise to...)? Or he remains a bachelor, and it it up to other descendants of TMC Link to continue the line of heroes. In either case, so long as time itself is truly split (which, by varying definitions of timeline, it may not be - timelines can be personal, after all...), Link was nothing more than a particularly dedicated Hylian Knight.

I guess there might be some more feeling in OoT, but I honestly didn't see any in the child half, and I guess I'm just not seeing what everyone else saw in the adult half. In any case, unless time itself does not split, Link and Zelda really have nothing but the meeting in the courtyard - he is a knight errant for her, but nothing more - hardly anymore than Zelda's equivalent to how Malon sees him "A Knight in Shining Armor".

Honestly, I didn't see to much romance in that game - he seems to get the attentions of every girl in that game, but only gives marginal attention if any to them (besides Saria).

As for their duties as sages - do those duties truly continue? Ruto only says that they would have to wait - maybe all she is saying is that there are more important things going on. Saria is a bad choice merely because, well, biological incompatibility (and that Kokiris are implied to be spirits as much as fairies are). Ruto seems to share the most actual interaction with him, likes him for him, and certainly grows out of her brattiness eventually. Besides, Zelda is as much a sage as Ruto is.

Honestly, Zelda and Link in OoT seem to me to be little more than childhood allies, not even friends as they are in TMC, while Ruto and him actually seem to build a friendship (and lets not forget, in TP the Zoras still like the Hero a fair bit, and have royally made armor for him...)

Link also seemed to grow romantically attached to Midna in this player's view..and that should shake some serious doubt in terms of his fidelity to Ilia.

...I can see concern among close allies building, but any love seemed to be one-sided. It seemed more like concern for a younger sibling to me, especially since, from Link's view, well, she's an imp. She may have recognized him as appropriate, and that is certainly shown, but she gives up on it anyway. The seen at the end...well, I would have been shocked even if I didn't know her well.

FS/FSA I would strongly disagree on...it's about the feeling, and he definately had something more with Zelda.

You're right, I forgot that the openings implied that they already knew each other well. Then again, it implies he knows all the shrine maidens well, so he honestly may be just the greatest knight, as much of the manga shows him.

Not true at all. See the scene where Zelda gives him the Ocarina in the beginning of MM, which is within the Child Timeline. We know from the game info that MM is three months after the end of OoT. And look what she says..

I'll never forget the days we
spent together in Hyrule...

And I believe in my heart that a
day will come when I shall meet
you again...

Well, who wouldn't forget those days? They saved the world! They fought an evil king! That's pretty heady stuff.

I guess I'm not one for recognizing romance, but the "I will see you again" seems pretty standard for good friends or even just allies.

The Song of Time is even called a song that reminds them of each other...and this is after the adventure of OoT when they are kids again.

This melody, lingering on the edges
of your mind, is a song of
memories of Princess Zelda.

But would it really be so far on the edges of his mind, if she was so centrally important to him? Besides, the Ocarina of Time and Song of Time are pretty much <i>about</i> Princess Zelda and the quest he undertook for her. I guess that itself could say something, and she does seem overly concerned about his well-being, but I honestly can't see enough for him to forsake his promise to Ruto. He could still help the land as the Zora King (especially now that he has the Zora mask...or if Zoras can just interbreed with Hylians?), and it wouldn't look to good for the King to have abandoned a promised marriage just to hook up with someone who probably already has an arranged marriage set up. You've got to remember, even know, that marriages based on love alone aren't that old of an idea, especially in Japan. Add that to royalty, and in a medieval setting, and its kind of far-fetched.

We don't know what happened to them, and his fate seems to be fairly open, but I strongly feel he returned to her, if only because his relationship with her seemed the deepest.

I see him as spending more time with Ruto, both as a child and adult (and he has a somewhat romantic moment with her Terminan counterpart), and Zelda being unwilling to reveal herself until the end...that can't bode that well.

Originally Posted by KrytenKoro

I posted this on the other thread, but it was locked, so...

Threads over a month old are not allowed be revived, that's why I closed it.

Originally Posted by KrytenKoro

I guess there might be some more feeling in OoT, but I honestly didn't see any in the child half, and I guess I'm just not seeing what everyone else saw in the adult half. In any case, unless time itself does not split, Link and Zelda really have nothing but the meeting in the courtyard - he is a knight errant for her, but nothing more - hardly anymore than Zelda's equivalent to how Malon sees him "A Knight in Shining Armor".

It's a matter of perception, and I do know that. The little things...the way she phrases things: " when you hold this Ocarina in your hand, I won't be around anymore.." there's an emotional emphasis there that Malon, and Ruto and all the other girls but Saria lacked. MM as a game was a master of evoking emotion, and I saw that in OoT as well. I stand by my belief that the intended girl is the one who gets the "emotional focus" of the game. In LA, it was Marin, in TP Ilia and Midna shared it. In OoT..I saw Saria, then Zelda.
Something about the adult half: Shiek was Zelda..and many of her scenes had more than meets the eye going on. "Power of the heart", "Young love becomes deep affection" with the cinematics...that leads me to conclude more was going on between them than meets the eye.

Originally Posted by KrytenKoro

Honestly, I didn't see to much romance in that game - he seems to get the attentions of every girl in that game, but only gives marginal attention if any to them (besides Saria).

As for their duties as sages - do those duties truly continue? Ruto only says that they would have to wait - maybe all she is saying is that there are more important things going on. Saria is a bad choice merely because, well, biological incompatibility (and that Kokiris are implied to be spirits as much as fairies are). Ruto seems to share the most actual interaction with him, likes him for him, and certainly grows out of her brattiness eventually. Besides, Zelda is as much a sage as Ruto is.

Did you read the OoT Manga?

Well, the sages in TP don't appear to be the Sages of OoT, so whether the OoT 7 are still sages in the Child Timeline is a good question. I'd say Zelda is a special case as well..in that she did not exist in a spirit form at the end of OoT like the others, and no seventh Sage is shown in TP though it's likely the current Zelda. I don't think the same rules bind her. She has to be able to marry in order for the kingdom to have heirs.

Originally Posted by KrytenKoro

Honestly, Zelda and Link in OoT seem to me to be little more than childhood allies, not even friends as they are in TMC, while Ruto and him actually seem to build a friendship (and lets not forget, in TP the Zoras still like the Hero a fair bit, and have royally made armor for him...)

The beginning of MM implies they are friends to me. More than friends in fact.
Why else would Link depart on a secret and personal journey, yet not leave without saying goodbye to her? Given the emotion she displays, and the emphasis on it....I saw more than just a mere knight reporting in to his Princess.

Originally Posted by KrytenKoro

...I can see concern among close allies building, but any love seemed to be one-sided. It seemed more like concern for a younger sibling to me, especially since, from Link's view, well, she's an imp. She may have recognized him as appropriate, and that is certainly shown, but she gives up on it anyway. The seen at the end...well, I would have been shocked even if I didn't know her well.

meh...it's in the details..the way he reacted when she broke the mirror, and his smile at her true form: not to mention when she mentioned about seeing him again..he had the same smile that he did for Ilia at the beginning of the game.

Originally Posted by KrytenKoro

You're right, I forgot that the openings implied that they already knew each other well. Then again, it implies he knows all the shrine maidens well, so he honestly may be just the greatest knight, as much of the manga shows him.

Did we read the same manga? At the end Link and Zelda walk off holding hands...and it's Zelda, and Zelda alone who is able to break through Shadow Link's evil heart and make him go good. It definately implied more than friends/knight and Princess

Originally Posted by KrytenKoro

Well, who wouldn't forget those days? They saved the world! They fought an evil king! That's pretty heady stuff.

Exactly...and a Hero and Heroine saving the world in most fictional situations leads to romantic involvement as they share the experience together. The recent interview with Aonuma says that in the Child Timeline, Link and Zelda left Ganondorf be...and he did something outrageous and it was decided to execute him...Link and Zelda likely were behind that..and continuing to share this responsibility. Why would Link want to stop helping out his kingdom and her? If anything his future would keep him in close promixity to her..and therefore allow for romantic developments.

Originally Posted by KrytenKoro

I guess I'm not one for recognizing romance, but the "I will see you again" seems pretty standard for good friends or even just allies.

But would it really be so far on the edges of his mind, if she was so centrally important to him? Besides, the Ocarina of Time and Song of Time are pretty much <i>about</i> Princess Zelda and the quest he undertook for her. I guess that itself could say something, and she does seem overly concerned about his well-being,

"Lingering on the edges of your mind" can also imply something that someone doesn't want to let go...and it's constantly with them. If Zelda was precious to him ( as the Ocarina is said to be ), she'd be constantly on his mind like it said. Her mere memory was enough to send him into a flashback in the face of his impending death. Every time he played the Song of Time after, he was likely constantly reminded of her.

Exactly. While Link is a hero and relatively selfless, I believe Zelda herself was a great motivation for him. The manga flat out says it. In game and manga, he was pointed out to be personally searching for her, as well as to save Hyrule. When all was said and done and he was given the chance to live his childhood again, he chose to return to her.

Originally Posted by KrytenKoro

but I honestly can't see enough for him to forsake his promise to Ruto. He could still help the land as the Zora King (especially now that he has the Zora mask...or if Zoras can just interbreed with Hylians?), and it wouldn't look to good for the King to have abandoned a promised marriage just to hook up with someone who probably already has an arranged marriage set up. You've got to remember, even know, that marriages based on love alone aren't that old of an idea, especially in Japan. Add that to royalty, and in a medieval setting, and its kind of far-fetched.

Does the promise still stand though? We don't know to what point Link was sent back to, and frankly, I don't think Link had any intention of following through with it. Ruto seemed to be the one who wanted him, and when she realized he was searching for Zelda ( after a conversation conveniently about love ) she released him.

The entire Legend of Zelda series has fairy-tale undercurrents...in fact the second game, featuring the original Link has him awake a Princess in a "Sleeping Beauty" fashion...the prologue even hints he's the "Great King" to come. So I can't see this fantasy setting regarding our reality as the deciding factor.

Originally Posted by KrytenKoro

I see him as spending more time with Ruto, both as a child and adult (and he has a somewhat romantic moment with her Terminan counterpart), and Zelda being unwilling to reveal herself until the end...that can't bode that well.

Mikau was the one with the implied romance with Lulu, not Link. Link was masquerading as him. If you wanted to stretch it, you could claim Link was able to feel Mikau's feelings, as Darmani remarks on the mask containing his "undying feelings". But that's not Link, it's Mikau.

Zelda couldn't reveal herself in OoT because if she did, she'd be doing three things. Essentially giving Ganondorf the Triforce of Wisdom, depriving Link of her guidance and help and putting Link in a tougher situation, by having Ganondorf holding her life in his terrible hands. If you watch the scene after the Water Temple, look at the way Sheik looks at Link. She obviously seems to want to stay and is conflicted. Zelda in the end even apologizes to Link for hiding herself, but she had to and they both knew it.

Did you read the OoT Manga?

Yes. Are the manga traditionally canon, or fanfics?

The beginning of MM implies they are friends to me. More than friends in fact.
Why else would Link depart on a secret and personal journey, yet not leave without saying goodbye to her? Given the emotion she displays, and the emphasis on it....I saw more than just a mere knight reporting in to his Princess.

Maybe because he needs the Ocarina? Or because he has been staying at the castle?
Possibly, he said goodbye to all the friends he had made - after all, he met nearly all of them before meeting Zelda, so if he's friends with her he'd have to know them as well. It could just be a secret journey because the populace didn't know that he was leaving, while all his friends did. And that Zelda is really only used to learn the Song of Time, instead of having constant references like other games do...

Does the promise still stand though? We don't know to what point Link was sent back to, and frankly, I don't think Link had any intention of following through with it. Ruto seemed to be the one who wanted him, and when she realized he was searching for Zelda ( after a conversation conveniently about love ) she released him.

The entire Legend of Zelda series has fairy-tale undercurrents...in fact the second game, featuring the original Link has him awake a Princess in a "Sleeping Beauty" fashion...the prologue even hints he's the "Great King" to come. So I can't see this fantasy setting regarding our reality as the deciding factor.

And yet, not very many fairy tales actually hinge on love as the deciding factor - just as many, if not more, hinge on adhering to your promises in marriage. Trisold and ...damn, I think I spelled that wrong.

Ruto seemed to be the one who wanted him, and when she realized he was searching for Zelda ( after a conversation conveniently about love ) she released him.

He still spent way more time with her, and more intimate time at that. She may have been somewhat bratty then, but the promise would still stand through, and he's seen how good she can be.

Though, rereading the line, I do see how it can be interpreted that way. I keep seeing it as merely "we both have more important duties", but it could be read that way. I just don't like the concept of Link abandoning a promise like that.

Zelda couldn't reveal herself in OoT because if she did, she'd be doing three things. Essentially giving Ganondorf the Triforce of Wisdom, depriving Link of her guidance and help and putting Link in a tougher situation, by having Ganondorf holding her life in his terrible hands. If you watch the scene after the Water Temple, look at the way Sheik looks at Link. She obviously seems to want to stay and is conflicted. Zelda in the end even apologizes to Link for hiding herself, but she had to and they both knew it.

Oh, I know there is a good reason for it...I wasn't arguing that. But that would still do a good deal of harm to trust, to have such an important secret kept for so long, and to have fooled all the sages that way as well. Besides, Ganondorf wouldn't have been able to do much without Link there anyway.

And she could have just told them. While activating the Triforce that close to the tower would clearly set Ganondorf's alarms off...there's no way Ganondorf has audio surveillance, if she's able to help Link so much. In all the poetry she spent time reciting, she could have said once "I am Zelda"....but didn't out of fears for her safety, or some such.

At what time he was sent back - it would depend if the Sapphire is seen in the Temple. I can't remember.

Originally Posted by KrytenKoro

Yes. Are the manga traditionally canon, or fanfics?

They are considered by a great amount of the fanbase to be non-canon in the strict definition, however it should be noted Aonuma has supervised them and played a role in their development. That right there says to me it's not fan fiction: the developer has played a role/approved it.

Originally Posted by KrytenKoro

Maybe because he needs the Ocarina? Or because he has been staying at the castle?
Possibly, he said goodbye to all the friends he had made - after all, he met nearly all of them before meeting Zelda, so if he's friends with her he'd have to know them as well. It could just be a secret journey because the populace didn't know that he was leaving, while all his friends did. And that Zelda is really only used to learn the Song of Time, instead of having constant references like other games do...

He doesn't need the Ocarina...Zelda, in her wisdom feels he does though. But the feeling is sentimental, and the instrument to them means more than strict function.

I have no doubt he came to know all the inhabitants of Hyrule again, as all the various groups have connections to the previous Hero in TP. This is obviously OoT/MM Link. But the game wanted us to know he saw Zelda before he left...and he does have a constant reference: The Ocarina of Time represents her to him..as well as the Song of Time. Both are integral to MM..and the info screen in MM says this about the Ocarina: " This instrument is filled with memories of Princess Zelda". She was there "in spirit" with him the whole time.

Originally Posted by KrytenKoro

And yet, not very many fairy tales actually hinge on love as the deciding factor - just as many, if not more, hinge on adhering to your promises in marriage. Trisold and ...damn, I think I spelled that wrong.

Okay..many popular fairy tales do. Tristan and Isolde I think is the one you mean. But how many people know about this one? The Legend of Zelda started out on a romantic footing, and everything else supports it. The Mangas and comics, the cartoon. Even the Ocarina of Time book..it outright says Link loved Zelda. And Ruto's a good person..do you think she would force Link to marry her if he didn't want to? She not only released him as an adult, but reassured him about Zelda's safety because he must have needed it. ( Impa does too )

Originally Posted by KrytenKoro

He still spent way more time with her, and more intimate time at that. She may have been somewhat bratty then, but the promise would still stand through, and he's seen how good she can be.

Though, rereading the line, I do see how it can be interpreted that way. I keep seeing it as merely "we both have more important duties", but it could be read that way. I just don't like the concept of Link abandoning a promise like that.

That's again a matter of perception..to me, it seemed very one-sided, with a Hero who had been captivated by his beautiful and trusting Princess. About Link abandoning a promise..he's not that type at all. But again, Ruto is not the person as an adult who would hold him to it in selfishness.

Originally Posted by KrytenKoro

Oh, I know there is a good reason for it...I wasn't arguing that. But that would still do a good deal of harm to trust, to have such an important secret kept for so long, and to have fooled all the sages that way as well. Besides, Ganondorf wouldn't have been able to do much without Link there anyway.

And she could have just told them. While activating the Triforce that close to the tower would clearly set Ganondorf's alarms off...there's no way Ganondorf has audio surveillance, if she's able to help Link so much. In all the poetry she spent time reciting, she could have said once "I am Zelda"....but didn't out of fears for her safety, or some such.

At what time he was sent back - it would depend if the Sapphire is seen in the Temple. I can't remember.

I can see that..but it had to be done. Link is a smart guy and he could see it..I'd think he'd be pleased at her gall and courage in risking her life to help him.

I suspect Ganondorf had a running surveilance on Link, as Link was causing him a great deal of trouble. Sheik telling Link would have invariably led to Ganondorf knowing. Ganondorf even says that he knew if Link ran around, Zelda would come out of hiding, and that's what he wanted.

Zelda/Sheik clearly cared little for her own safety, as she stood between Link and the Shadow Spirit. I think she was more worried about her Triforce, after all the whole point of the quest was to keep it out of Ganondorf's hands.

I would suspect the Sapphire is there as the Door of Time is open.

The Ocarina of Time represents her to him..as well as the Song of Time.

Still...who else could it possibly have memories of?

Okay..many popular fairy tales do.

Beauty and the Beast?

About Link abandoning a promise..he's not that type at all. But again, Ruto is not the person as an adult who would hold him to it in selfishness.

If it was a case for kingship kind of thing, it really doesn't matter whether she would release him or not, it matters whether the populace would fault him for it.

Originally Posted by KrytenKoro

Still...who else could it possibly have memories of?

The Ocarina? I'd say some songs could remind him of people ( Saria's Song, Epona's Song ) but the Ocarina itself, who else but Zelda? The info screen flat out says it. Touching the Ocarina puts him into a flashback of Zelda...it was the instrument that made the previous game possible, and the reason Ganondorf was after her initially. Zelda as Sheik had many duets with Link with it..it's likely full of memories of them.

Originally Posted by KrytenKoro

Beauty and the Beast?

But love IS the deciding factor there, in fact the point of the whole tale. She was bound by promise at one point, but that was a mere plot point to keep her interacting with him. Didn't he release her later from it?

Originally Posted by KrytenKoro

If it was a case for kingship kind of thing, it really doesn't matter whether she would release him or not, it matters whether the populace would fault him for it.

I doubt the Zora populace, or the Hylian one would fault him. Never mind the fact they are likely biologically incompatible ( see MM and the Zora Eggs ) which would make heirs impossible, Zoras and Humans have drastically different cultures and lifestyles. And Link is the kingdom's Hero..in MM it is stated he took his place among legends, inferring his deeds were known. He probably could do no wrong in this case.

I know why a lot of fans want to think about who our hero is going to go home to but I feel like that one of the major points of the story is being missed in this discussion.
Link is the hero of courage and thus he must be brave upon himself. I know from my own experience that it makes a big difference in ones own sense of bravery when there is someone waiting for you.
Plus Zelda is a strong woman and she, I would guess would let nothing get in the way of her sense of duty to her people. She would have to marry a noble born and our hero is common born and an Orphan to boot.
I am curious to what other think about this.

Originally Posted by MyrmidonJas

I know why a lot of fans want to think about who our hero is going to go home to but I feel like that one of the major points of the story is being missed in this discussion.
Link is the hero of courage and thus he must be brave upon himself. I know from my own experience that it makes a big difference in ones own sense of bravery when there is someone waiting for you.
Plus Zelda is a strong woman and she, I would guess would let nothing get in the way of her sense of duty to her people. She would have to marry a noble born and our hero is common born and an Orphan to boot.
I am curious to what other think about this.

By someone waiting for him, who are we talking about? Malon, Saria etc...?

If it's one of those, Saria was eliminated, and Malon works great in theory, but Link paid no noticeable attention to her and that matters. I'd call Ilia more likely than the two of them, but Link actually seemed to return it in her case, and didn't even know Zelda.
I agree both of them are bound by duty..but their duties both involve the same common goal..the betterment of Hyrule. Put them together and you'd have a King and Queen who truly love their nation and would sacrifice anything for it...them NOT being together seems the less beneficial solution, IMO.

In terms of Zelda being nobility? In most of the games, that matters nothing. It's fantasy...not reality. If Link can be engaged to the Zora Princess, I think he'd be able to marry Zelda too.

Originally Posted by gliderpilotgirl

By someone waiting for him, who are we talking about? Malon, Saria etc...?

If it's one of those, Saria was eliminated, and Malon works great in theory, but Link paid no noticeable attention to her and that matters. I'd call Ilia more likely than the two of them, but Link actually seemed to return it in her case, and didn't even know Zelda.
I agree both of them are bound by duty..but their duties both involve the same common goal..the betterment of Hyrule. Put them together and you'd have a King and Queen who truly love their nation and would sacrifice anything for it...them NOT being together seems the less beneficial solution, IMO.

In terms of Zelda being nobility? In most of the games, that matters nothing. It's fantasy...not reality. If Link can be engaged to the Zora Princess, I think he'd be able to marry Zelda too.

What I meant was Link probably would not end up with anyone. At least not in any story. Maybe it's a "nice guys finish last sort of thing." What ever it is Link needs to be alone to be the hero. I would guess that is why he is always an orphan too.
Of course I think he would also be attracted to someone here and there but in the end he has to be alone. That is why it is only suggested once that Link gets to kiss Zelda (AoL.)
Of course there is the other side of Link. Colin's mom is pregnant with Link's Child in TP

Originally Posted by MyrmidonJas

What I meant was Link probably would not end up with anyone. At least not in any story. Maybe it's a "nice guys finish last sort of thing." What ever it is Link needs to be alone to be the hero. I would guess that is why he is always an orphan too.
Of course I think he would also be attracted to someone here and there but in the end he has to be alone. That is why it is only suggested once that Link gets to kiss Zelda (AoL.)
Of course there is the other side of Link. Colin's mom is pregnant with Link's Child in TP

Yeah..I can agree with his duty keeping him out of a normal relationship, he has a calling few to none will truly understand. That's why I advocate Zelda for him..she's the only one who can remotely understand what it's like to live that seperated, lonely lifestyle. She's above them as their ruler, and sees their lives from the outside, like Link. Not being able to be close to anyone as a leader is a terribly lonely life.

Zelda also kisses Link in the linked ending of the Oracles, and PH Spoilers!! they are reaching out to each other, about to hold hands when she gets taken by the final boss..it's quite romantic. They may not kiss in most games...but it's suggested in plenty of them that they like each other.

I really don't see where people get the idea that Link and Zelda have anything going on. Nowhere in any of the games is it implied. People assume that just because Link saves Zelda, just like in every fairy tale, they'll end up getting married. Of all the girlfriends Link has, his relationship with Ilia is th most serious.

"Romantically? I have no doubt he loved Ilia..but she's small potatoes compared to the life he's now faced with, IMO. Link also seemed to grow romantically attached to Midna in this player's view..and that should shake some serious doubt in terms of his fidelity to Ilia."


Personally I strongly doubt that link is romantically attached to midna. They were close friends but didn't seem to have feelings for each other. Midna is just a companion of adventure for link not an interest of love.

Originally Posted by Majoraman

I really don't see where people get the idea that Link and Zelda have anything going on. Nowhere in any of the games is it implied. People assume that just because Link saves Zelda, just like in every fairy tale, they'll end up getting married. Of all the girlfriends Link has, his relationship with Ilia is th most serious.

Little hints within game...cinematics, romantic language and Link's recurring close relationship with her, a beautiful girl that he risks everything to save. And you said it yourself...fairy tales. The Legend of Zelda has much in common with fairy tales, in fact it's very structure IS a fairy tale. Not to mention all the other Zelda related material overwhelmingly supports it. Manga, comics, cartoons, the OoT book. So that's why!
I even recall hearing of an interview somewhere where Miyamoto actually said after AoL that Link and Zelda would marry and rule Hyrule together.

I'd say Ilia is the only real time he's had a deep relationship with a girl other than Zelda. Before anyone jumps on me for Marin, I'm counting her as the dream's representation of Zelda to Link.

lloydsymphonia: Midna seemed like a combination to me of both Navi and the Sheik side of Zelda. And the love-hate relationship is a classic romantic plot device...it was the little hints again that got my attention. "Link....I..." then how heartbroken he looked at her permanent departure and such. I think Ilia wins by default of being the only serious one left..but doubt is there.

Originally Posted by Majoraman

I really don't see where people get the idea that Link and Zelda have anything going on. Nowhere in any of the games is it implied. People assume that just because Link saves Zelda, just like in every fairy tale, they'll end up getting married. Of all the girlfriends Link has, his relationship with Ilia is th most serious.

As we were just discussing there is a few times that Link and Zelda get a single moment in the games and they flirt or even kiss. I am also not an advocate of the Z+L romance but I mean there is evidence.

I would have to say that Saria in OoT would have probably been the most obvious close bond in all of the Zelda games, however being that she is a Kokiri meant that she'd never grow up, therefore Link would have been a kokiri pedophile . But still, lame jokes aside, Link and Saria would have been a great couple. And technically, in Majora's Mask, Link could have possibly been in the woods looking for Saria (although it may have also been Navi). So there may have been a happy ending for the two. Maybe some little half-hylian half-kokiri kiddies running around .

"Midna seemed like a combination to me of both Navi and the Sheik side of Zelda. And the love-hate relationship is a classic romantic plot device...it was the little hints again that got my attention. "Link....I..." then how heartbroken he looked at her permanent departure and such. I think Ilia wins by default of being the only serious one left..but doubt is there."

Personally I think midna was just successor of navi. I didn't find that midna look likes sheik side of Zelda. All the love-hate relationhsip don't finish forcing in true love. They can lead to friendship. link was sad to lose a friend. It is a natural reaction. He would have act in the same way for another person. But his behavior didn't indicate that he was destroyed to lose a true love. He sad to lose a friend not a love.
The sentence of midna : Link, I... doesn't mean "link I love you" but more "link I am sorry " by what I will do. midna is sad but she must broke the only bond between the two worlds but she makes it to protect her people and doesn't know how to announce this news to link. she had promised to him that they could see again whereas she already knew that they couldn't see again. she wanted certainly apologise near to link because she was going to break the mirror.
Yes it's for this reason i believe there is no love between link and midna in tp.
For me it's obvious there is a big friendship between them but not a love.

But love IS the deciding factor there, in fact the point of the whole tale. She was bound by promise at one point, but that was a mere plot point to keep her interacting with him. Didn't he release her later from it?

In the Disney telling, yes.
Still, marriage by promise was still an important theme.

I doubt the Zora populace, or the Hylian one would fault him. Never mind the fact they are likely biologically incompatible ( see MM and the Zora Eggs ) which would make heirs impossible, Zoras and Humans have drastically different cultures and lifestyles. And Link is the kingdom's Hero..in MM it is stated he took his place among legends, inferring his deeds were known. He probably could do no wrong in this case.

...no. The games have shown that bad deeds can extremely tarnish a hero's reputation (especially if its a renowned hero - hell, LA proves this humorously).

Biologically incompatible - see Zora -> Rito, or hell, Zora -> Hylian (per ALttP)

In terms of Zelda being nobility? In most of the games, that matters nothing. It's fantasy...not reality.

Actually, the games and manga seem to show that this concern is appropriate - the OoT manga shows it clearly with Ruto, and Ralph's line in OoA is also appropriate.

Zelda also kisses Link in the linked ending of the Oracles

ON THE CHEEK. C'mon, he has near no relationship with her in that game, and much more of one with Din. Maple, even.

a beautiful girl that he risks everything to save.

In most of the games, this is because saving her is directly tied to saving the world. TMC and PH are pretty much the only ones where saving the world is secondary.

Before anyone jumps on me for Marin, I'm counting her as the dream's representation of Zelda to Link.

I'm going to jump on that one anyway since he only thought it was Zelda when he couldn't see straight and was delirious.

lloydsymphonia: Midna seemed like a combination to me of both Navi and the Sheik side of Zelda. And the love-hate relationship is a classic romantic plot device...it was the little hints again that got my attention. "Link....I..." then how heartbroken he looked at her permanent departure and such. I think Ilia wins by default of being the only serious one left..but doubt is there.

Okay, seriously - there's no way that in that short period of time he suddenly forsook Ilia and grew romantic attractions for Midna. His relationship with her grew as a close friendship, possibly brother/sister - changing this into romantic attraction takes a LOT more than "OMG, I'm suddenly humanoid!".

I agree that Saria is a moot point - as a Kokiri, it's not a matter of biological incompatibility, as much as it that she simply isn't biological.

Malon - I can see your reasoning here, but that kind of view was/is actually pretty popular in Japan. Especially in history or fairy tales. And it really would be more class-appropriate; just being a hero does not a king make - going at something with a sword has little to do with governing, as Ralph himself shows. The "Link as king" makes more sense in games in which he was raised as a noble or pseudo-noble, like in TMC or FS.

Something interesting I saw - while I can understand that the concern Link shows for Zelda in Adult OoT is apparently interpreted as romantic (though the manga gives MUCH better reasoning for this...) - there's something else, as well.

Mikau is one of the only main MM characters with no clear OoT counterpart, alongside Kafei. And yet, he is even a transformation of Link.

Could Mikau be a counterpart to Link taking Zora form when he returned to Hyrule? After all, he is never shown giving up his transformation masks...

KrytenKoro "Okay, seriously - there's no way that in that short period of time he suddenly forsook Ilia and grew romantic attractions for Midna. His relationship with her grew as a close friendship, possibly brother/sister - changing this into romantic attraction takes a LOT more than "OMG, I'm suddenly humanoid!"."

Okay frankly where did you see that link suddenly forsook Ilia and grew romantic attractions for Midna?
At no time of game link seems to be attracted by midna.
If you refer to the moment when link runs to join midna when she finds her true form he doesn't act by love. he wants just to make sure that his friend and guide is O.K.
this moment doesn't have anything a romantic scene.

And the moment when link doesn't say anything when he sees the true form of midna it is not because he is subjugated by her beauty it is just which he is surprised to see midna in life and didn't think that she was going to looks like that.

I'm sorry but i don't agree with you. The friendship between midna and link doesn't change into romantic attractions during the game. It is clear that between them it is just friendship.

The relationship between midna and link is identical to the relationship link and taya in Majora Mask. Taya and link were hated at the beginning of game and they start more has to be appreciated at the end of the game. But it was seen well that link liked by friendship taya and it is similar for midna. He likes midna like a friend and not like a love.

Originally Posted by KrytenKoro

In the Disney telling, yes.
Still, marriage by promise was still an important theme.

...no. The games have shown that bad deeds can extremely tarnish a hero's reputation (especially if its a renowned hero - hell, LA proves this humorously).

Biologically incompatible - see Zora -> Rito, or hell, Zora -> Hylian (per ALttP)

I have really nothing more to say to that..but I can't see him being forced to keep it.

Zora -> Hylian in ALTTP I would suspect is more a retcon that anything else...and Zora -> Rito an adaptation to new conditions.

Originally Posted by KrytenKoro

Actually, the games and manga seem to show that this concern is appropriate - the OoT manga shows it clearly with Ruto, and Ralph's line in OoA is also appropriate.

But it's a concern..not the deciding factor. Love can still triumph..they never tell us it can't be because of class and such.

Originally Posted by KrytenKoro

In most of the games, this is because saving her is directly tied to saving the world. TMC and PH are pretty much the only ones where saving the world is secondary.

But it's more than that. In several of those ( ALTTP, OoT, WW ) When Zelda is taken..they make it personal. Sure Link needs her to save the world, but is that what's going through his head at the moment? I'd think he'd be terrified and angry to see her ( a girl who is his friend and maybe more ) carted off in front of him to possibly her death. I can't help thinking of TP and his lack of reaction when she died and later...and how different that was from OoT where it was hinted he had feelings.

Originally Posted by KrytenKoro

I'm going to jump on that one anyway since he only thought it was Zelda when he couldn't see straight and was delirious.

The point is that Link was associating Marin with Zelda..he likely wanted to see Zelda.

Originally Posted by KrytenKoro

Okay, seriously - there's no way that in that short period of time he suddenly forsook Ilia and grew romantic attractions for Midna. His relationship with her grew as a close friendship, possibly brother/sister - changing this into romantic attraction takes a LOT more than "OMG, I'm suddenly humanoid!".

At the beginning of the game, Ilia was "his childhood friend" and a love interest...but she definately seemed to like him more than the reverse. Frankly what I saw was two kids on the verge of moving into full-blown romantic love. "Young love becomes deep affection" and all...but he was changed by the quest...how could he not be? My question is whether Ilia still knows and loves the man he's become, not the one he was.
And there's also the possibility Link did like Midna..just less than Ilia if that makes sense.

Originally Posted by KrytenKoro

I agree that Saria is a moot point - as a Kokiri, it's not a matter of biological incompatibility, as much as it that she simply isn't biological.

Malon - I can see your reasoning here, but that kind of view was/is actually pretty popular in Japan. Especially in history or fairy tales. And it really would be more class-appropriate; just being a hero does not a king make - going at something with a sword has little to do with governing, as Ralph himself shows. The "Link as king" makes more sense in games in which he was raised as a noble or pseudo-noble, like in TMC or FS.

That's probably part of the reason why I dislike the Malon x Link thing so much personally. She's convenient and that's all. But love is not predictable or logical like that...as much as she may make sense, it matters nothing if Link doesn't like her back. And the game did not focus on his feelings for her. ( Unlike Zelda, Saria and even Ruto) MM with Cremia/Romani makes a better case IMO...but there's lots of holes in that one too.
And the manga cleanly torpedoes the Malon X Link thing.

Originally Posted by KrytenKoro

Something interesting I saw - while I can understand that the concern Link shows for Zelda in Adult OoT is apparently interpreted as romantic (though the manga gives MUCH better reasoning for this...) - there's something else, as well.

Mikau is one of the only main MM characters with no clear OoT counterpart, alongside Kafei. And yet, he is even a transformation of Link.

Could Mikau be a counterpart to Link taking Zora form when he returned to Hyrule? After all, he is never shown giving up his transformation masks...

The manga gives a more "realistic reasoning" IMO. Link is human..with expressed feelings and desires, not the nearly empty vessel he is in the game. A real human being is more likely to fight for love than just because it's right.

IMO, Kafei may actually be a parallel of Link as well. but anyways...it's on personal opinion again. I saw nothing in OoT to indicate Link returned any of Ruto's affections.