The Romance Thread IV: The Debate Continues

And like I said way back somewhere, I don't think Nintendo will ever show Link having a definite involvement with any woman, because it would take the choice out of the player's hands. The player is Link, and therefore he chooses the woman he wants Link to have.

As a side note, it's interesting to compare Zelda and Peach. Peach is feminine to the extreme, to the point of being a stereotype of a helpless, ditzy woman who needs her man to save her all the time. In fact, the later games seem to portray almost as being mentally retarded. Zelda, on the other hand, possesses more masculine characteristics (exemplified by Sheik) and generally takes on a more active role in battle, to the point where Link needs her to defeat Ganon. Mario never needed Peach to stop Bowser.

Originally Posted by gliderpilotgirl

Just something I've noted in both yours and Sirius's posts that I wanted to address: who says that not being physically compatible makes a relationship invalid? The way I see it, when you truly love someone, their appearance is irrelevant. Sure physical attraction is important, but I feel it should always take a backseat to the connection between two hearts. Look at fairy tales like Beauty and the Beast...she fell in love with him regardless of his looks. If Link did really love Midna, ( and I'm iffy, but I think they were on their way ) than he loved her regardless of her physical appearance. She mentioned in a flashback that she hadn't always looked like that either.

On a side note, I've seen this same statement used to invalidate any connection between Sheik and Link, regardless that Sheik was actually the disguised Zelda. There were many scenes IMO that had a discernable tension between the two...where we were left with merely Link and Sheik looking each other, and way more was going on. Link may have been clueless, but I do believe he developed a definate connection to Sheik...just it didn't burst into romantic love until Zelda revealed herself and he realized it had been her all along.



Have you played PH yet?

It's actually funny that you should say holding hands is racy because they nearly do that. Linebeck has dropped Link to the floor, and Link's merely staring at the newly revived Tetra. Tetra reaches down to Link with a tender look in her eye, and the two are like seconds from holding hands....and tentacles appear out of nowhere to snatch her away. I didn't think there was anything racy about it, it was two kids displaying puppy love. I definately think more will develop between the two when they grow up.

That's kind of funny. I've never thought of a grown up toon Link and Tetra/Zelda. I think that that could be a very important part of the series.

Anyone know of any fan art of a 16 year old toon Link? That I'd like to see.

Originally Posted by Ganonslayer2000

I have not played PH nor OOA/OOS, LA, Minish Cap as well but in one of the handhelds I keep hearing about Marin as a Malon counterpart. Like how?? Does she like horses too? BTW who is the love of Link in FSA? Have not played that one either.

Well Marin was the girl who found you when you washed up on the beach. She takes you in to her house, and lets you stay there with her and her father (Tarin).

They're both (Marin and Malon) very similar in their physical apperance, and they both have a slight tomboyish nature.

On a side note, both of their fathers are mushroom addicts....

I hope the next Zelda game shows true romance between LINK and ZELDA

Originally Posted by Sirius B

As a side note, it's interesting to compare Zelda and Peach. Peach is feminine to the extreme, to the point of being a stereotype of a helpless, ditzy woman who needs her man to save her all the time. In fact, the later games seem to portray almost as being mentally retarded. Zelda, on the other hand, possesses more masculine characteristics (exemplified by Sheik) and generally takes on a more active role in battle, to the point where Link needs her to defeat Ganon. Mario never needed Peach to stop Bowser.

I agree that Peach and Zelda are very different. But maybe because Zelda tends to fall more away from the traditional damsel in distress route the opinion pops up that she is less a romantic interest than a strictly platonic partner. I've definately seen this in the view that while Link may continue on a heroic path dealing with Zelda, he would choose to pursue his romance elsewhere.

This business vs romance mode I thought TP seemed to exemplify unfortunately. Zelda was beautiful and feminine but kept in "business mode" whereas the helpless Ilia seemed to be groomed for romance and little else. I personally disliked that immensely: I feel a woman who can fight by a man's side is MORE suited to be his romantic partner rather than less. Like how WW demonstrated Tetra/Zelda in the end fighting beside Link, yet the game seemed to support romance as well. I don't think realistically that Link would keep his romantic interests ( his heart ) so clearly outside of "work" either. His focus is on his heroic duty, and any woman would have to fall in line with that.

Link seems to be one of those loner heroes to me...where he'd be too afraid of his loved one getting hurt while he was away or something to get involved with anyone.

Originally Posted by Sirius B

And like I said way back somewhere, I don't think Nintendo will ever show Link having a definite involvement with any woman, because it would take the choice out of the player's hands. The player is Link, and therefore he chooses the woman he wants Link to have.

As a side note, it's interesting to compare Zelda and Peach. Peach is feminine to the extreme, to the point of being a stereotype of a helpless, ditzy woman who needs her man to save her all the time. In fact, the later games seem to portray almost as being mentally retarded. Zelda, on the other hand, possesses more masculine characteristics (exemplified by Sheik) and generally takes on a more active role in battle, to the point where Link needs her to defeat Ganon. Mario never needed Peach to stop Bowser.

I´m afraid I have to disagree with you there. First off, let´s forget about those all retro games and look what we have today and what Peach are today. She´s neither a helpless princess or mentally retarded. Ever seen her driving go-karts or throw a perfect Mario Party? I doubt that. And forget about that Strikers everybody is blabbering about, it was just a football game no more, even tough it was good and fun still, forget it. It was meant to be aggresive. Next is that Mario and Luigi actually needed Peach once. Heard of Super Princess Peach? Peach saves Mario and Luigi from Bowser darnit! Sure I know she´s been kidnapped much by Bowser. But do you think you would make it better If there was a gigantic koopa king standing there before you, ready to kidnap you? Also, Peach has a whole kingdom to look after and of course she couldn´t run away. No, she stays for her people and unluckily ends up kidnapped. And also Bowser is damn stubborn also he never leaves her alone,I´m sure we all know why. And also, Melee and Brawl also proves her real strange and what a heorien she really are. Peach may not be Zelda or Daisy but whatever u do, never underestimate her.

As for Zelda it was told that she is a tomboy and that´s really true. You don´t need to wear masculine clothes to be a tomboy, no. Sheik was a fictional character by Zelda and a emergency thing to hide from Ganondorf in Oot. Zelda can fight much better without Sheik. In Brawl/TP it was told that her magic was damn powerful, it also was in Oot/Melee.
Zelda is actually a tomboy, calm but even wild.
I´d say don´t compare Zelda,Peach and also Daisy. They posses different talents and powers and are equally good.

Originally Posted by JC Farrell

I hope the next Zelda game shows true romance between LINK and ZELDA

Soo agree on that. What´s taking Nintendo so long? Everybody like knows they fit togheter!

Originally Posted by gliderpilotgirl

I agree that Peach and Zelda are very different. But maybe because Zelda tends to fall more away from the traditional damsel in distress route the opinion pops up that she is less a romantic interest than a strictly platonic partner. I've definately seen this in the view that while Link may continue on a heroic path dealing with Zelda, he would choose to pursue his romance elsewhere.

This business vs romance mode I thought TP seemed to exemplify unfortunately. Zelda was beautiful and feminine but kept in "business mode" whereas the helpless Ilia seemed to be groomed for romance and little else. I personally disliked that immensely: I feel a woman who can fight by a man's side is MORE suited to be his romantic partner rather than less. Like how WW demonstrated Tetra/Zelda in the end fighting beside Link, yet the game seemed to support romance as well. I don't think realistically that Link would keep his romantic interests ( his heart ) so clearly outside of "work" either. His focus is on his heroic duty, and any woman would have to fall in line with that.

I've heard this argument before...strangely I think it was on a Wikipedia discussion page about Zelda's relationship to Link. It basically went that, since Zelda is slowly becoming less and less a Distressed Damsel and more like Link's "partner in arms," the possibility of a romantic relationship between them becomes less. I don't really buy this argument, because I've never felt that merely rescuing someone is a precursor to romantic involvement, and if she's elevated to Link's partner as opposed to a Distressed Damsel there's a GREATER chance of a relationship forming between them, especially since they now have a common, overriding purpose in life (protect the kingdom) as opposed to "oh, now I have to go rescue some woman I don't even know."

That's what I dislike about her portrayal in TP...for the most part she's reduced back to a Distressed Damsel until the end whereas in OoT and WW she had a more active role throughout. What I'm guessing happened was that Nintendo had a wealth of new characters that needed developing (Ilia, Midna, all of Link's friends in Ordon, etc.) and Zelda sort of got shunted off to the side, and they probably felt that players were familiar enough already that she didn't need any more development. The game's title alone, "Twilight Princess" should be a hint...it's Midna who's got the character focus.

And I still doubt that there will ever be a "true romance" between Link and Zelda shown, simply because it would take Link out of the player's hands. What if a player absolutely cannot stand the thought of them together, and yet it happens in the end? He's going to feel as if he's no longer in control of the main character. Link has no One True Pairing, and I don't think that's going to change.

I think they should give Zelda a bit more personality next time, like Tetra.

But I dont realy blame OoT Zelda for that, she was going around as a Ninja for about 7 years, so I guess that effects your personality a tad bit.

Good thing she diddnt end up acting like Solid snake or some other form of twisted personality.

Originally Posted by Sirius B

I've heard this argument before...strangely I think it was on a Wikipedia discussion page about Zelda's relationship to Link. It basically went that, since Zelda is slowly becoming less and less a Distressed Damsel and more like Link's "partner in arms," the possibility of a romantic relationship between them becomes less. I don't really buy this argument, because I've never felt that merely rescuing someone is a precursor to romantic involvement, and if she's elevated to Link's partner as opposed to a Distressed Damsel there's a GREATER chance of a relationship forming between them, especially since they now have a common, overriding purpose in life (protect the kingdom) as opposed to "oh, now I have to go rescue some woman I don't even know."

That's what I dislike about her portrayal in TP...for the most part she's reduced back to a Distressed Damsel until the end whereas in OoT and WW she had a more active role throughout. What I'm guessing happened was that Nintendo had a wealth of new characters that needed developing (Ilia, Midna, all of Link's friends in Ordon, etc.) and Zelda sort of got shunted off to the side, and they probably felt that players were familiar enough already that she didn't need any more development. The game's title alone, "Twilight Princess" should be a hint...it's Midna who's got the character focus.

And I still doubt that there will ever be a "true romance" between Link and Zelda shown, simply because it would take Link out of the player's hands. What if a player absolutely cannot stand the thought of them together, and yet it happens in the end? He's going to feel as if he's no longer in control of the main character. Link has no One True Pairing, and I don't think that's going to change.

I'm pretty sure I saw that same argument and I still disagree with it. I feel the stronger the connection they form, the higher the chance of romance. When we have a solid intimate friendship between them ( OoT/MM, WW, MC, etc ) it makes far less sense for Link to look for his loving elsewhere. He's got a girl who already truly knows and understands him and will unconditionally support him in his true calling. And most of all? She believes in him.

Agreed on TP. That's part of the reason I feel that while TP may be a good game, it's not a good Zelda game: throwing Zelda off onto the side in favour of an Ilia or Midna strikes me as wrong.

Originally Posted by gliderpilotgirl

I'm pretty sure I saw that same argument and I still disagree with it. I feel the stronger the connection they form, the higher the chance of romance. When we have a solid intimate friendship between them ( OoT/MM, WW, MC, etc ) it makes far less sense for Link to look for his loving elsewhere. He's got a girl who already truly knows and understands him and will unconditionally support him in his true calling. And most of all? She believes in him.

Agreed on TP. That's part of the reason I feel that while TP may be a good game, it's not a good Zelda game: throwing Zelda off onto the side in favour of an Ilia or Midna strikes me as wrong.

Well it certainly worked out well enough for Nintendo, as Midna is a very popular character, and she and Ilia seem to be the most popular characters to pair Link with if the crapsack stories on ff.net are any indication.

Originally Posted by Sirius B

Well it certainly worked out well enough for Nintendo, as Midna is a very popular character, and she and Ilia seem to be the most popular characters to pair Link with if the crapsack stories on ff.net are any indication.

That strikes me as amusing becase Midna herself really isn't much different than a "dark sarcastic Zelda" in essence. She fights for the same things that Zelda does, her own realm, her people etc...yet because she's a Twili we're deprived of the possibility of them following any relationship up in the future. I wish they had stuck with a more fully developed Zelda in lieu of her.

For fan-fic, I think Ilia and Midna were the only two real developed possibilities, hence the stories.

I was reading a thread similar to this and they were talking about how the reason link dosen't fall in love in the games themslvels is that the producers want the player to choose how link goes with. which lead to and idea.

in the next game add in a Harvest Moon aspect where you choose which girl you go with. although it probobly wouldn't work because all the games take place during the adventure and link has no time to be flirting while destroying ultimte evil.
But it's just an idea...

Originally Posted by 1upmushroom

I was reading a thread similar to this and they were talking about how the reason link dosen't fall in love in the games themslvels is that the producers want the player to choose how link goes with. which lead to and idea.

in the next game add in a Harvest Moon aspect where you choose which girl you go with. although it probobly wouldn't work because all the games take place during the adventure and link has no time to be flirting while destroying ultimte evil.
But it's just an idea...

I wondered when someone would bring up Harvest Moon. I don't know if you've played all the Harvest Moon games but their have been at least 1 maybe 2 that are RPG's as well as having the same stuff as a regular Harvest Moon game. Harvest Moon games are made so you can control the outcome of your entire life and it gives you in some games the option of being a boy or girl so you can decide on several people who to marry and their are sometimes hidden ones too. The game is all about farming and starting a family. Personally next to Zelda, Harvest Moon is my favorite game.

Funny that it should be mentioned; I was just thinking what it might be like if Nintendo took things a step further and allowed the player to choose the woman Link ended up with (if any). However, there's the argument that the Zelda games are adventure games and not dating sims. In addition, there's no way of accommodating everyone's wishes. What if they want to pair Link with the Cucco Lady or the Poe Collector? (Yes, it HAS been done)

Originally Posted by Sirius B

Funny that it should be mentioned; I was just thinking what it might be like if Nintendo took things a step further and allowed the player to choose the woman Link ended up with (if any). However, there's the argument that the Zelda games are adventure games and not dating sims. In addition, there's no way of accommodating everyone's wishes. What if they want to pair Link with the Cucco Lady or the Poe Collector? (Yes, it HAS been done)

So I guess I can write a fan fic with Link hooking up with Ashei huh? Ha JK I can understand many fan fics pertaining to Link getting involved with Midna but Illia?? I found her to be quite annoying and yeah I know that cutscene where Link sees a whole bunch of upside down Illias falling to indicate a desire for her, but I still felt more attracted to a random Hyrule town girl than the nauseously super sugary sweet Illia. SPOILER ALERT: PERTAINING TO TP END CREDITS

In the end credits in TP I like to think that I enjoyed seeing Illia stand there looking heartbroken as Link did not return her feelings and rode away to be with Zelda or Telma maybe??

Originally Posted by Ganonslayer2000

So I guess I can write a fan fic with Link hooking up with Ashei huh? Ha JK I can understand many fan fics pertaining to Link getting involved with Midna but Illia?? I found her to be quite annoying and yeah I know that cutscene where Link sees a whole bunch of upside down Illias falling to indicate a desire for her, but I still felt more attracted to a random Hyrule town girl than the nauseously super sugary sweet Illia. SPOILER ALERT: PERTAINING TO TP END CREDITS

In the end credits in TP I like to think that I enjoyed seeing Illia stand there looking heartbroken as Link did not return her feelings and rode away to be with Zelda or Telma maybe??

And I'll say it again: Ilia, like many others in Ordon, has a misshapen head. Now, I'm not saying the people with misshapen heads cannot be totally awesome badasses, but...she's got a misshapen head!

Being serious, I don't think the people in that cutscene were supposed to "be" Link and Ilia, exactly, but just figures familiar to Link used to explain the backstory.

Forget about that alternative endings and all the girls or whatever. It´s hinted in every game that Zelda and Link belong togheter. Why is it called Legend of ZELDA then?
Cause it´s about both Link and Zelda. They´re destined to get togheter no matter what. I just wish Nintendo will show it one day but I guess that´s wishing for the impossible as it seems now.

in TP,illia,in oot though clearly saria.because one kokiri even says in adult timeline,she had a crush on link.And when link first leaves the forest he feels embarresed/sad cause he has a crush on her.they just never admitted it to eachother

Originally Posted by UnderworldKing

I wondered when someone would bring up Harvest Moon. I don't know if you've played all the Harvest Moon games but their have been at least 1 maybe 2 that are RPG's as well as having the same stuff as a regular Harvest Moon game. Harvest Moon games are made so you can control the outcome of your entire life and it gives you in some games the option of being a boy or girl so you can decide on several people who to marry and their are sometimes hidden ones too. The game is all about farming and starting a family. Personally next to Zelda, Harvest Moon is my favorite game.

I personally love the Harvest Moon games, but aren't they in essence the exact opposite of what a Zelda game is about? Where a Zelda game is about getting uprooted and thrown into a heroic destiny that takes you away from your roots, Harvest Moon is about settling down and making those roots. I love the dating aspect of HM, but it's about finding who's right for you, where LoZ is about a life bigger than yourself. So in essence, in Zelda you are NOT free to choose your own life path vs that of Harvest Moon.

I feel that a girl like Malon or Ilia would be the perfect Harvest Moon bride, but in the Zelda world, they stand for the opposite of what Link does. Peaceful, carefree and idyllic lives vs world-changing, difficult and full of hardship in his case. Zelda on the other hand would be a terrible HM bride: she could never leave her life to join you on the farm, but she's perfect to be the heroine of the Zelda series.