The Romance Thread IV: The Debate Continues

True Link is mature for his age, but he is not a man thats for sure. But whether we like it or not, he does and needs to follow orders to complete his objectives. Link is mature enough to have an understanding of right and wrong as any child his age would have, but he still needs to be guided like a child throughout the entire OOT quest. I know you wish Link was more like Leonidas from the movie 300 or Beowulf in being decisive without help but there is nothing in the games that indicate this at all. But I think the conclusion in MM indicates that Link does become mature enough to where he no longer needs a fairy to tell him what to do all the time. And so he is on his way to become this assertive macho manly man that you already wish him to be. So I agree OOT/MM Link is mature for his age but bottom line he still has the pure innocence of a child that needs to be told what to do whether we like it or not.

True Link is mature for his age, but he is not a man thats for sure. But whether we like it or not, he does and needs to follow orders to complete his objectives. Link is mature enough to have an understanding of right and wrong as any child his age would have,

I totally agree with you about this part.

So I agree OOT/MM Link is mature for his age but bottom line he still has the pure innocence of a child that needs to be told what to do whether we like it or not.

He doesn't nedd to be told what to do al the time, since he could make his own decision in the Epona scene without a problem. Sure, without Sheik he'd be in deep ****, but that's because he doesn't even know what he has to do to achhieve his goal and where the next temple is. Even assuming he could make the needed decisions, he doesn't have the information to make them. Besides, he already knows what to do all the time, since he gets told what to do to save Hyrule, and he can't make decisions how to get the stones, since the eople who have them tell him what they want him to do before giving them to him and there's not much room to make any decisions when it comes to free the sages, since he needs Sheik to get more information and after getting it, only needs to kill some monsters.

True but he still seemed to have the pure innocence of a forest child anyway. If Link was manly mature like Leonidas or Achilles, I doubt Zelda/Sheik would have been quoting simple nursery rhyme poetry to help him understand what he needed to do in the quest. Zelda/Sheik's dialogue seemed to indicate that even she knew that even as an adult that Link still had the heart & mind of a forest child.

I wouldn't call it "simple nursery rhyme poetry". But sure, Link was still a n innocent child - at least as innocent as you can be after all that he experienced and saw. But he's mature enough to make his own decisions, he just never has to/gets the chance to.

Personally I always wished OOT Link was somehow a mature minded enough adult to feel romantic desire. But the in game evidence of 7 years lost maturity and his character/demeanor always remaining the same throughout the entire quest is clear that Link did not have romantic feelings for anyone at anytime during the adventure. The only time Link actually shows romantic desire for anyone is the Cremia hug in MM which is pro LinkxMalon WOOHOO!!!

In OOT though, I would like to believe in the theory that he had adult feelings as an adult but he forgot them when he returned as a child at the end, but realistically that theory makes no sense at all. Not to mention the game never indicates his personality ever changes one bit. Link's actions in the scene in the sky fully supports this without a doubt. Too bad though because I genuinely really wanted him to express some type of adult romantic feelings for Zelda outside of just pure & innocent emotional attachment.

I agree that Link is mature enough to make decisions. But him making simple decisions based on right and wrong doesn't necessarily make him a leader. When it comes to big decisions/situations, he usually either responds shyly, requiring someone else to (often forcibly) point him in the right direction, or he responds really impulsively, in which he lets his emotions take over and does something crazy (that typically doesn't end too well). I mean, sure, he has courage (um, he holds the Triforce of Courage for a reason). He can stand up to enemies and be trusted to do the right thing, like any good courageous hero would. But that doesn't give him immaculate decision-making and people skills. It doesn't necessarily make him a leader. He may lead when it comes to fighting enemies and doing the right thing, but from what I've seen of how he acts around people, I don't think he does. And if we're talking about putting him in a real human relationships, then the way he acts around people pretty much determines whether he's a leader or follower. And he's a follower, in my opinion.

I agree with kaybee2 100%

@Ganonslayer

I agree with there. It would have been so awesome, if Link had been more like he was in the Manga.
But why would him responding to Cremia's hug indicate romantic feelings? Not only does MM go out of it's way to point out that he doesn't understand mature romantic feelings, I'd think it's only natural to feel good if someone actually thanks you in some way for helping out. Besides, it would be pro LinkxCremia, seing that Malon and Cremia aren't the same person.

@Kaybee
I don't think he'd be the typical leader, if he were one at all. People seem to look up at him naturally so he seems to be a charismatic, as evidenced by TP, but I agree, he'd never be the type of leader as the people Ganonslayer likes to mention.

Originally Posted by Yayu

Well, with Ruto and Midna I'd think they'd order him around a bit too much, because of their bossiness (maybe even Tetra), whhile I see Zelda - or, at the very least OoT/MM Zelda - treat him as nothing but her equal. I'd think she would let him help her making the decisions after laying down the facts, especially since he has far more experience than her after MM.

Sounds about right.

Originally Posted by Ganonslayer2000

This is debatable since WW is considered to be a continuation of the Adult Timeline.

You cut my quote though - what I said before the bit you quoted was "She wants, not to split the timeline (even if that was the apparent result), but to wipe out the "Adult Timeline" completely and replace it with something better." I know that the "Adult Timeline" continues at least to WW, since that explicitly spins out of the "Adult ending" of OoT, and on to PH.

My point was that everything that happened after Link drew the Master Sword was a direct result of the plan she concocted, which went "right" in terms of simple mechanics ("get the stones, get the Ocarina, draw the sword") and almost as wrong as could be in terms of the final result (the only way it could have gone worse would have been if Ganondorf had got the whole Triforce, rather than the ToW and ToC flying off to her and Link). She knows it, she says it, and she's incredibly guilty about it:

Originally Posted by Zelda, Scene in the Sky

All the tragedy that has befallen Hyrule was my doing... I was so young... I could not comprehend the consequences of trying to control the Sacred Realm.

I dragged you into it, too.

Now it is time for me to make up for my mistakes...

And then there's this curious bit:

Originally Posted by Zelda, Scene in the Sky

When peace returns to Hyrule...
It will be time for us to say good-bye...

And then, as he fades out, she says "Good-bye".

Now, nothing's changed in Hyrule between "when peace returns, it'll be time to say goodbye" and her saying "goodbye". The scene's far too short, and if she considers that it's already happened, her saying "When peace returns, it'll be time" in the first place is bizarre. The only way it makes sense is if her sending Link back is the trigger for peace to happen. And the only way that will change anything is if Link acts to stop her plan before it starts.

Originally Posted by Ganonslayer2000

Therefore Link could have stayed with Zelda if he wanted to. But since he chose to return to being a forest child physically, Zelda simply complied to his wishes. The in game scene in the sky did not indicate any over complicated moral & ethical dillemma of Link wanting to stay with her at all.

He hands that Ocarina over FAR too slowly to say that he wants to do it without reservation. He's apparently agreed - or perhaps "he's reconciled to the idea" is a more accurate phrase - that it's the right thing to do, but if he was doing it gladly, he would hand over the Ocarina a lot more readily.

Originally Posted by Ganonslayer2000

But IMO I think Zelda did want him to stay with her but with Link clearly having the heart and mind of a pure & innocent forest child throughout the entire quest, he didn't seem to have a clue on Zelda's mature adult romantic feelings for him at all. IMO Zelda's decision had more to do with Link actually wanting to return to the Child Timeline more than anything.

I think it's the other way around - Link DIDN'T want to return, but felt he had to. Zelda, on the other hand - while she didn't want to lose him - is driven by her guilt now "it's over". She needs the absolution of undoing the damage she did, including to Link's life ("I dragged you into it").

And after OoT, let alone MM, I don't think "innocent" is the word to be used to describe Link.

Where is the proof Link wanted to stay with Zelda in the Adult Timeline?? I wish it was true but he just stood there quietly with his signature blank and oblivious stare and did as he was told because it seemed that he wanted to return to being a forest child anyway. In game OOT Link is proven to be the polite and obedient eternal virgin with the heart & mind of a forest child period. Tell me when did Link ever get laid to lose his innocence Reboot??

He already explained why he thinks Link wanted to stay. It's because Link doesn't just hand over the ocarina readily, but because he does it slowly, as if he doesn't really want to. (And well, he does go back to child Zelda immediately, it seems.)

Him looking at the ocarina briefly only suggested a reflective moment on what the ocarina meant to him during the quest. So it makes sense that he did that. I reference one of the articles in this forum that better explains THE REALISTIC reason why he looked at the ocarina and I assure you it had nothing to do with Link being an adult male with sexual yearnings for Zelda thats for sure.

Again Reboot..where is your proof that contradicts the in game evidence of Link's 7 years of lost maturity? Though I really would like to believe that Link was an adult Romeo/Cassanova in the scene in the sky but evidence suggests that EVEN ZELDA knew Link was a mentally pure & innocent child that she could never have a romantic relationship with even if she wanted to. Remember the dialogue "Regain your lost time, WHERE you are supposed to be, THE WAY you are supposed to be" Thats proof enough that even Zelda knew that Link was not a mentally mature man at all in the scene in the sky. As for Link he just stood there with his creepy blank & oblivious stare and just seemed to be nothing more than a polite & obedient child entrusting Zelda as a more mature adult to restore his childhood again.

Can you link me to that article?
(And I always found his signature stare determined.)

Just go to the home page on this forum and click on the articles section. Determined huh?? As a child it seemed just blank & oblivious and as an adult it seemed oblivious as well as confused. Probably with all that going back and forth between times I guess. I know if I met someone with that same stare in real life and if they were generally quiet like Link, I would be totally creeped out.

I never really saw oblivousness or confusion there, to be honest. For me, it looks more like the look TP Link has when he rides after thode boar dudes who kidnapped Colin.
And it would be really creepy, if that guy had also blond hair and blue eyes and wore green clothes.

EDIT:
I've read the scene in the sky portion of the article now and to be honst, I don't agree with it at all. Why wuld the ocarina be any more important than any of the other items, especially the Master Sword, which he had seemingly no problem to give up? And wouldn't the fairy ocarina, which was a good-bye present of one of his best friends, be far more important to him than the ocarina he was only given to open the passage into the sacred realm?
I doubt the ocarina itself would be all that important to him. And reflecting about what happened... He had certainly more time to reflect during Ganon's sealing than when giving the ocarina back. And the parallel that was made between Bilbo not wanting to give up the ring and Link hesitating in giving back the ocarina is... lacking, to say the least. As far as we know, the ocarina doesn't take it's users will away and stops him from wanting to give it away, so there's not even a parallel there that could be made.

Well TP Link is different. He had time to grow normally.

Originally Posted by Yayu

I never really saw oblivousness or confusion there, to be honest. For me, it looks more like the look TP Link has when he rides after thode boar dudes who kidnapped Colin.
And it would be really creepy, if that guy had also blond hair and blue eyes and wore green clothes.

EDIT:
I've read the scene in the sky portion of the article now and to be honst, I don't agree with it at all. Why wuld the ocarina be any more important than any of the other items, especially the Master Sword, which he had seemingly no problem to give up? And wouldn't the fairy ocarina, which was a good-bye present of one of his best friends, be far more important to him than the ocarina he was only given to open the passage into the sacred realm?
I doubt the ocarina itself would be all that important to him. And reflecting about what happened... He had certainly more time to reflect during Ganon's sealing than when giving the ocarina back. And the parallel that was made between Bilbo not wanting to give up the ring and Link hesitating in giving back the ocarina is... lacking, to say the least. As far as we know, the ocarina doesn't take it's users will away and stops him from wanting to give it away, so there's not even a parallel there that could be made.

No, no....I don't think the ocarina was like the ring in LOTR. Its just there is no proof whatsoever that Link's pause with the ocarina meant that he was madly in love and horny for Zelda thats all. IMO Link's actions in the scene in the sky seemed to hint more that he preferred to return to being a forest child again instead of pursuing an adult romantic relationship with Zelda.

No, no....I don't think the ocarina was like the ring in LOTR.

Ah, but that parallel was made in the article. I'm glad that you don't agree with that, since you can't compare the ring to the ocarina at all.
Link being reluctant to give the ocarina back is of course no die hard proof, but it's still an interesting little fact. And I don't think he would be madly in love with her, since he'd be too young for that, but there's still the possibility of him having a crush on her or just being reluctant on leaving her after just meeting her again.

Without a doubt I think Link reflecting on what he had been through during his brief pause had Zelda in it. But IMO his supposed crush was more like child like emotional attachment if anything. My interpretation of the article was more that his brief pause with the ocarina was a reflection of what he had been through that involved the actual importance of the ocarina. And since the game is actually called OCARINA OF TIME, his brief pause with the ocarina makes sense to me.

Its just I never interpreted the brief pause meant that Link was madly in love with Zelda to want to stay and marry and have lots of babies with her as some people believe. Not to mention I still think Link had a choice to stay with Zelda if he wanted to or else why would Zelda be so sad on his decision to leave her? I do think that Zelda had a moral obligation to send him back since he was literally a forest child in a mans body and therefore she could not pursue a REALISTIC romantic relationship in his sexually innocent state of mind. But I also think Link did genuinely want his childhood back instead of wanting to stay with Zelda and marrying her in the Adult Timeline.

Your interpreatation makes more sense than the one in the article. At least, if I didn't misunderstand it.
I also don't think he was madly in love with Zelda or wanted to marry her, since he was far too young for that and even if we assume he somehow artifically matured, there was no time to think about romance with all that was happening. I, however, do think that he had some kind of emotional attachment to Zelda and I could see him wanting to stay with his friends. But even assuming Link wanted to stay, I don't see Zelda backing down from her decision easily ( even though him leaving obviously saddened her), since she had her own important reasons for making that decision in the first place (closing the portal, giving Link back the childhood she thought she stole and maybe even, like Reboot said, wanting him to stop her young self from setting her plan into motion- not anticipating that it would split off a new timeline, of course).