BtR: Is Nintendo Afraid of the Dark?

This thread is for discussion of Mirren's Behind the Rupees article, Is Nintendo Afraid of the dark.

The article was extremely thought provoking. The Zelda series has always been one to provoke our imaginations. Nothing is ever explained fully, we as gamers fill in the blanks with our individual perspectives on the Mr green's adventures. But how much explanation is too much, and how much is too little?
When it comes to horror, we generally fear the unknown. Mysterious creatures flitting from shadow to shadow, enclosing on our vulnerable selves. A feeling of being trapped, too far in to go back and afraid to go on. An aura of death, comrades falling inexplicably, a trail of blood that ends with no body, architecture from a twisted form of your own beliefs tortured into unknown and heretic forms.

But if Zelda did this, would we play it? The atmosphere would indeed be dark but it would cost us freedom, security, whimsy. Things that are the very core of the Zelda experience.

Besides, I feel as if the series is quite dark as it is. Under its saccharine sweet surface lies many unexplained horrors and numerous story arcs that are sparse enough to allow for dark interpretation. Any number of cheery hellos the npcs give you could have been said through clenched teeth. You cannot tell, so it is up to the player to interpret. It's a world which is only as dark or as cheery as the player is. Artificially injecting darkness into such a world could end up doing more harm than good. Players would be denied the right to view the world of Hyrule as they want it to be.

Good article Mirren,

I agree that Nintendo is lacking games that are dark and frightening but so are Microsoft and Sony. It seem that the "dark" games are far and in between.

Also if Nintendo want to make an attempt at a mature game I don't think that they should do it with Zelda because Zelda has never been a series that had to be dark to get the fans' attention they just had to keep the same sense of adventure and mystery that the series has always had. Even in Majora's Mask which is considered the darkest game I didn't really find it dark I actually found it more mysterious.

If Nintendo wanted to make a dark game a better choice of series would be Metroid or just make a new series all together.

^ I wouldn't even want Metroid to become M. That would make it seem like Nintendo's just taking the easy road and simply making it with all strong themes, rather than keep the adventurous, mysterious, and atmospheric feel of the games. Metroid isn't about brutality and disturbing auras, it's about the epic journies of a brave warrior to save worlds (Prince of Perisa SoT and WW can be used there as well).

But, I really hope that Nintendo ends up making sequels (or even small series) of Eternal Darkness and Geist. Those were two games where the dark feeling actually fit well, and didn't feel awkward. Plus, they were both awesome games.

I like the mystery of darkness more than the darkness itself. Nintendo should have more mystery, like it does, than just plain darkness and evil. Mystery is better for plot and more, well, mysterious.

Originally Posted by Mirren

^ I wouldn't even want Metroid to become M. That would make it seem like Nintendo's just taking the easy road and simply making it with all strong themes, rather than keep the adventurous, mysterious, and atmospheric feel of the games. Metroid isn't about brutality and disturbing auras, it's about the epic journies of a brave warrior to save worlds (Prince of Perisa SoT and WW can be used there as well).

I could live with a mature Metroid. Metroid is a series in need of evolution. Adding a horror element, placing a greater emphasis on story, and pushing the envelope as far as violence goes (to a reasonable degree) would go a long way in increasing the series' appeal. As of now, it is a franchise with no appeal to anyone but the most die hard of Nintendo fanboys.

But, I really hope that Nintendo ends up making sequels (or even small series) of Eternal Darkness and Geist. Those were two games where the dark feeling actually fit well, and didn't feel awkward. Plus, they were both awesome games.

Eternal Darkness won't happen. Silicon Knights is no longer a Nintendo second party. They're now developing games for Xbox 360/PS3 (Too Human). They do not follow Nintendo in their philosophy of small, lower budget games. Eternal Darkness sucked anyway. I never understood the hype.

I haven't played Geist. I've never heard it being described as awesome, though. Awesome concept, bad execution. Concept won't be as awesome the second time. Came from the developers of Mary Kate and Ashley Sweet 16. Wouldn't have even been recognized had it not been:

A.) Published by Nintendo
B.) Released on a system with no good FPSs.

How about after Metroid Prime 3, Nintendo assigns wholly owned Retro Studious to create a mature FPS? Retro Studios is a massively talented Texas based development studio composed of people who have worked on terrific FPSs (such as Half Life) in the past. They're Nintendo's best bet for creating a high calibur FPS franchise that could appeal in America. Another possibility is Ubi-Soft, who are supposedly underway with a Revolution FPS.

The Kakariko Well and Shadow Temple in Ocarina of Time would be the first attempt by Nintendo to put some real darkness into the Zelda series. This wasn’t just a bleak atmosphere that was physically dark; they were going for the look and feel that could creep us out, and make us disturbed by the gruesome and frightening surroundings. The easiest way to say it, though, is that it didn’t work.

Didn't work in what way? I don't think it was Nintendo's intention to freak out little children and induce nightmares. They have always maintained that all of their first party software can be enjoyed by anyone of any age. The Zelda series will never be about horror. What the atmosphere did achieve was a tense feeling. I felt the same way in the Forest Temple. Not horrified, but tense. Using the block as an umbrella to keep from being impaled by spikes felt tense to me. Evading guillotines and having to be aware of invisible enemies and traps also added to this feeling. In the Forest Temple, dodging Wall Masters is something that I never look forward to. None of the above are all that hard to overcome, but all of them incite a tense feeling for me. On another note, I love the Forest Temple, but am always glad to be done with the Bottom of the Well/Shadow Temple, and I think this has to do with being rid of this uneasy feeling.

Majora's Mask had its fair share of uneasy moments. Wind Waker only has one for me, and that is during you first trip to the Forsaken Fortress. I dislike stealth missions, and the sudden burst of sound that accompanies a Monblin noticing you often makes my heart jump.

Originally posted by Shiek 84
I could live with a mature Metroid. Metroid is a series in need of evolution. Adding a horror element, placing a greater emphasis on story, and pushing the envelope as far as violence goes (to a reasonable degree) would go a long way in increasing the series' appeal. As of now, it is a franchise with no appeal to anyone but the most die hard of Nintendo fanboys.

Eh, I would just feel like making Metroid M would be about adding something stupid like buttloads of swearing. If they wanted to make the action more violent and gory, I suppose that could be done, but I almost feel it'd be unnecessary.

Eternal Darkness won't happen. Silicon Knights is no longer a Nintendo second party.

Oh, I didn't know that.

Eternal Darkness sucked anyway. I never understood the hype.

To each is own, I guess.

I haven't played Geist. I've never heard it being described as awesome, though.

I thought it was awesome, that's why I said it. A few sites really liked it, also.

Concept won't be as awesome the second time.

Oh, there's plenty of room for add-ons and improvement with it. That, and there's a lot of potential for the overall game with Revolution (online multiplayer, Revo controller).

I was forced to leave the computer when about halfway through this post, resulting in the second half of this post being rushed. It has, since then, been heavily edited.

I think I need to say a few things here...

First off, I'm a huge Silent Hill fan. (Well, fan of the games at least. I'll give the movie a chance but some of the changes get to me...) Now, Silent Hill is considered a "survival horror" game (like Resident Evil), and is full of blood and gore. However, if you play this game, and it's sequels, you will notice that the game is VERY character focused. Also of note, is that while there's blood and guts to go around, what gets your attention isn't the zombie nurses running around, but the surreality of the atmosphere, the plot, the delving into the characters' pasts, and specific situations the game puts you in.

A point to make is that all the Silent Hill games have a habit of creating areas that are mixtures of places and people you've met before, as if the world itself is a jumble of your past memories. You find yourself wondering if this maze you've found your character in really exists, or whether it is in your character's mind. In the process, your character discovers things about themselves, and the player's decisions to act upon these revelations lead to an assortment of endings, either good, bad, or just plain silly. The true appeal to Silent Hill is not the shock appeal, but the psychological puzzle that makes up the characters, and the player controlling them.

Sound familiar? I have two words for you: Majora's Mask.

In this game, we find Link in an alternate reality, in which people he's met before are paralleled in surreal ways that allow us to piece together Link's previous journey in Ocarina of Time.

It's strongly implied that the situations Link was put through in Ocarina of Time didn't sit well with him when it was all over. He was put through a confusing physical change due to his time travel abilities. He made some very good friends, who helped him with the pressing need of sealing Ganondorf away, but at the same time, most were forced to leave him one by one. Once the war is over, the sages now lead lives that, well, don't really include Link. This might make him feel a bit used, and abandoned. Then, Navi leaves him.

Now, in Majora's Mask, we have what's left of the Hero of Time. He appears to be honored if nothing else, sporting a brand new, custom shield. He also appears to have maintained his friendship with Malon and Talon, as he is riding a still-young Epona. But what sticks out is the fact that he's obviously depressed as he rides through the darkness of the lost woods. His head is hanging, his overall posture indicating a person who has been defeated not by battle, but by life.

This is a kid, people. A kid has just fought a war almost single-handedly, and is trying, alone, to deal with the mental aftermath. This is dark, in a psychological way. Link's journey to Termina is necessary. Almost as a mirror to his experiences in Hyrule which apparently dragged him down, his experiences in Termina are a metaphor for healing. He ends up taking the forms of dead people who's lives, in ways, mirror his own. His is not able to save everyone, but at the same time, he is able to greatly improve the lives of many. It is even hinted that he has a bit of a realization about girls. (Tee hee!) When he goes to Termina's moon, he is put in a very surreal place that would fit right in with anything I've seen in Silent Hill. Despite the calm of the sunlit field, there is a sadness to the area, and the questions that the "children" ask Link. After the battle, we see a change in young Link as he continues his journey through the lost woods. He rides almost joyfully toward a sunlit clearing. We don't really know what happened after that, but we are given the idea that he's come to terms with his life.

This is a huge Silent Hill parallel. In these games, the characters usually have a past issue they're trying to understand. If you recieve the best endings, this means that with your guidance, the character has come to terms with their past and is now able to continue with their own life.

Now, Wind Waker is a little different. The seriousness found here isn't necessarily in the enemies, but in the theme of people unable to let go of the past. I don't know if I'd call it "dark", but it definitely isn't something that a young child will fully understand.

So here, we've got this kid who is the distant descendant of the Hero of Time. (Like it or not, he is, and I've given my reasons twenty million times. If you still need proof, see sig for short-answer.) He is dumped into a situation that drags him into a long-forgotten past that has evolved into little more than myth and legend. Hyrule should have been left under the sea, and for all intents and purposes, it is gone. However, both Ganondorf and the King have, in their own ways, trapped not only themselves, but Link and Tetra's bloodlines in the past. It is destiny that these children would fight Ganondorf, but only because they are dragged into it by people who will not let go of the past.

When Link sees the castle for the first time, we see a scene trapped in time by the master sword. This scene is very striking. The statue of the hero stands, ironically, over what seems to be a moblin victory. It is a blatant reminder that there was no Link to save the kingdom at this time. At the same time, it is a reminder that the story of what happened here is not over. The Link to save the day is the current one.

Although this Link is certainly more cheerful than the Hero of Time, there is still a sense of surreality in his journey. He and Tetra are haunted by mistakes in the past that have yet to be corrected. The castle is a foreboding and mysterious monument to these mistakes, especially when you return to see the Hero's statue smashed.

When you finally reach the last "dungeon", you're placed in a situation that relives your past battles, as if they were memories. This is metaphorical. Ganondorf and the King both live in the past, and everything about them is surrounded in memories that aren't necessarily your own, but are everything about you. If it wasn't for Ganondorf and the King, there would be no reason for you to be dragged into this past. There would be no reason for you to be required to be the hero.

When you defeat Ganondorf, you also help the King defeat himself, and the King finally defeats his own past. Hyrule and the triforce are no more, and the past can no longer haunt Link, Tetra, or their future contributions to the gene pool. Furthermore, the new sages are freed from their responsibilities. The world is a new, free one, of adventure to be discovered without the burdens of a past kingdom. There is no longer any need for a royal family or a knight to protect them.

The Wind Waker, in some ways, reminds me very much of the Alfred Hitchcock movie, Rebecca. I suggest seeing it. The movie's ending will speak for itself.

Now, Twilight Princess, what little we've seen of it, looks like it's being attacked by Tron. I expect this is definite proof that we'll get a good 'ol dose of surrealism in that game too. And yes, most likely serious themes. Anywho, I don't think you can safely say that Nintendo is "afraid" of dark or serious themes. I think they simply deal with a wide variety of issues and topics, and some of them just happen to look a bit more kiddie than others on the surface.

*looks up* Very good. I like that. Not many people put as much thought into the deeper meanings of the Legend of Zelda series, or any gaming series for that matter. Very good.

Now, in relation to the topic, I must say that Bongo Bongo was indeed an awesome boss. He was quite mysterious, and frightening. He was one of those bosses that are either REALLY easy, or REALLY hard, depending on how you fight. He beats on a drum surrounded by acid, and chanted deep, haunting words while fighting. He also had a nice history behind him. He seems to have a very dark and bloody past, which takes only the common sense of an older person to understand. Bongo Bongo is a demon of sorts, possibly a necromancer, that is ruthless, and shows no mercy. Kind of makes me wonder, did Ganondorf release him, or did Bongo Bongo force his way out on his own? I also wonder what Bongo Bongo was planning. He's alot more threatening than Volvagia, seeing as Bongo Bongo could just twist Volgy's head with two fingers, thus killing him. Anyways, Bongo Bongo has an odd appearance as well. He's human possibly, with disembodied hands, no head, and no legs. Could this be some horrid punishment he suffered as a mortal? Who knows. I guess Miyamoto is letting us use our imagintions.

Now, about Ganon and the pig thing. I couldn't be more pleased with the pig idea. That's Ganon. We wouldn't want to Change Bowser into a killer jellyfish or something, would we? It wouldn't be Bowser then. If they do anything with Ganon's pig form, they should make him larger, more frightening, and a new choice of clothing. Ganon is our big evil porker, and I wouldn't change that for a damned thing. The Legend of Zelda series is about moving forward, and keeping the old charms. Each game adds something, and keeps previous elements. We could keep the Pig Ganon, and add some powers. How about that? I wouldn't protest that in the least. Just keep the pig snout at least.

Polychrome, that was a great post. I thought what you said about Link in MM and the past bosses in TWW was very interesting.

Mirren, I really enjoyed your article. I don't think Nintendo is going to start making horror games because they just aren't very intersted in exploring that genre. I'm not going to really delve into that subject though, because I'm much more interested in the rest of the article.

I think that the heart of The Legend of Zelda is the theme of exploration and the unknown. It's fitting, considering how the series was inspired by Mr. Miyamoto's experience of venturing into a cave. And for me, the best part of any Zelda game is exploring the world for the first time. I vividly remember my first playthrough of Majora's Mask, when I could always see the ominous Stone Tower standing in the distance, and the foreboding I felt as I finally went into the land of Ikana.
The bizarre, otherworldly beings like Bongo Bongo tie into the theme of the unknown. When I encounter entities such as Bongo Bongo, the Four Giants, Eyegore, and especially Majora, I get the same awesome sense of Zelda Magic that I felt as I entered the Stone Tower for the first time; I'm sure Mr. Miyamoto must have gotten that same sense when he went into that cave. That Zelda Magic isn't only found in exploring new areas or encountering bizarre beings, it is found when you are immersed in the unknown.

I think Twilight Princess will do well in regards to unleashing that essence of Zelda. I have many doubts about the game, but as I look at the media that's been revealed, I'm getting the right vibe from it.

Originally Posted by Mirren

If anyone remembers my first article, I talked about those strange things that fell from the magical portal in the sky. These are probably the most unique Zelda enemies I’ve ever seen, purely in their design. I mentioned that they could be robots or cyborgs or something, and while I doubt that my first assumptions were correct, I still have no idea what to truly call them. They just drop from black hole, have stone heads, and explode into a storm of shards when they’re killed. What can you make of them?

I thing the design of those... things is amazing. They seem to come from another world entirely; perhaps they are the twisted creations of some god from the Zelda universe. Whatever they are, they are definetly mysterious, and kudos to the Nintendo employee who conceived them.
One thing I want to point out about their design is that on their stone "heads," the is an emblem shaped like a U that has been part of the design of many other things in TP and TWW. In TWW, you see that design on Bokoblin shields and the hilts of Ganondorf's swords. In TP, it seems to be everywhere from Midna's Crown to the horns of Colin's captor, the Bokoblin Chieftan. My guess is that Midna's Crown was (in the Zelda universe) the origin of that design, and that the crown will prove to be of tremendous significance.

But, you do need something that will get a reaction from the gamer, something that will get them enthralled with the storyline. That doesn’t mean that Zelda needs to become an adult series (and it better not), it simply means that Nintendo needs to put some emotion into the plot.

In my opinion Link's Awakening had the best story in the series, not because of some complex plot, but because there was so much emotion embedded in it. Which supports your point about the significance of emotional investment in a story. Twilight Princess seems to be headed in the right direction from what I've seen of it. I expect Ilia and Colin will be strong, genuine characters, like Marin, Daphnes and Ganondorf (in TWW). The Bokoblin Chieftan is a despicable villain, and Midna has great potential. I just hope TP doesn't go the route of having you collect X number of artifacts to save the world, though it probably will.

Then we have Ganondorf. What can I say about him? Well, first off, he needs a personality. He looked radical in Ocarina of Time, but he had no interesting character, unlike the Wind Waker’s version. He needs to be made different from every other villain who wants world domination. More importantly, he needs a new look, at least for the Ganon form. I’m really getting sick of the Pig-Ganon, I admit it. Not only am I growing bored of it, but I’m also losing my respect for Ganon as a daunting adversary. It doesn’t look particularly frightening, and it’s been done to the death now.

I don't think Ganondorf needs a new demonic design to be an effective villain, though it certainly could work. I think his personality will be what will make him effective. Here are my predictions:

Originally Posted by Myself

I think Twilight Princess will show a different side of Ganondorf from his OoT and TWW personalities. I'm expected Ganondorf to be at his absolute worst. He hasn't yet had his epiphany that he loved Hyrule and its destruction was his fault, so it's very unlikely he will be pensive and restrained, as he was in TWW.
Through most of OoT, we saw Ganondorf's purely greedy side. He always wanted more and more power; his greed could never be satisfied. When Link battles Ganondorf for the first time, that greedy Ganondorf dies and in its place is the embodiment of pure rage: Ganon. That monster was subdued and sealed away for years; when he returns his wrath will be greater than ever before.

I'm hoping this will be Ganondorf's final role in the Zelda series.

Nice article, Mirren. I completely agree with the main point of it.

Originally Posted by Hylian Dan

I'm hoping this will be Ganondorf's final role in the Zelda series.

Unless Twilight Princess is the last Zelda game made, I guarantee you that it won't be.

I never read a BtR article before(I always thought it was about the history of rupees),but I was bored,so I read this one. It was pretty good,and I'm considering reading more later.

Pretty much everyone beat me to what I wanted to say,but I had one question:When did we learn that TP was going to be rated Teen? Maybe I've been asleep under a rock for a few weeks,but I never remembered hearing that. It was in the article,if you're wondering.

I hope Zelda doen't go to the dark side of gaming. It would destory the Zelda way of style and I would not consider it a Zelda game. The lesson of Zelda is about how a kid was able to stop such a great evil becouse of his cuarge and hope. It is not how a grown adult. Even though thats cool in they games. But the kid like qulities are what the games are about and they should stay the way they are or not make the games.