Zant vs. Ghirahim

I honestly rank them equal with most things. I suppose the only factor I could compare them with would be how much they creeped me out. With that said I would have to say Zant creeped me out far more than Girahim. Even the TP Trailers with Zant walking down the Hyrule castle throne room bit, That gave me the Creeps

Originally Posted by st3v13

Please can someone explain this love for Garahim - I think he/it is the worst - I cant even bring my self to call him a villain. Is it just because he has an effeminate side parting that looks like every emo kid that loves him/it?

I'm guessing people only like the sod because he is effeminite and flamboyant -and fangirls looove this. I know I'm stereotyping, but it is seriously a crock of ♥♥♥♥e that such an unimaginitive and excessively exaggerated villain is considered a better villain than the one who acts as a competent antagonist and a far more imaginitve character because the other guy wooks pwetty.

If anyone can honestly give me an actual example of Ghirahim being a competent villain (the part here he goes back in time doesn't count, that can be attributed to the protagonists' incompetence) to the point where he exceeds the impressiveness of Zant, who almost takes over the entirity of Hyrule within the first hour or so of the game.A "well characterised" villain is nothing if he has nothing new to bring (JRPGs have a bad habit with this) , next to one who is actually interesting and more original. Everything about Ghirahim is boring, his design, his personality, his goals. His image as the flamboyant girlish villain is a front for his unoriginal design- that's all he really has in his personality. There seems to be people trying to assert that Debbie has more to him than that, as if he has some sort of deep character to him.

Case in point

Originally Posted by DL-Ghirahim

Demon Lord Ghirahim is the second-in-command of the Surface, as in, the prince of the entire world. He is also the Lt. General of Demon King Demise’s hellish army. Throughout the entire game, Ghirahim is portrayed as a being loyal to his wishes, even though he wanted to resurrect his Master, but that was because he knew his leader would ensure to him what he desired the most; eternal bloodshed. He comprehended that an antagonistic deity such as Demise could ensure that to him. His relationship with Link was something simple; he’d served as a sort of obstacle on various occasions. Ghirahim wanted Zelda, the protagonist’s best friend (and alluded love), so that he could revive the evil warlord.

He did everything he could to stop the main character from getting her, first evidenced when the sadistic character took his time to try and stall Link before he could get to her in the Skyview Temple. My second and last example is when he summons Molgera on Link, to buy him time so that Ghirahim could try and get to Zelda. In few moments, the demon lord has showcased irritation towards unexpected fiddles in his plan. For example, when an agent of the Goddess (Impa), rescues Zelda from the clutches of his lackies. Another trait of Ghirahim’s is that he views himself above anyone. He treats people as if they were below him, but enjoys playing with them, teasing his pray like a cannibal inside a cage with another person. But what makes him relatively unique is his sadistic persona. The way he licks his bloodstained sword suggests he’s crazed for combat, more specifically, bloody duels. A character such as him deserves my attention and admiration because I like his type of personality. In a The Legend of Zelda games, he’s something fresh; different from all the basic villains we get..

-hellish in that they are obsenely easy to kill and look like characters from a child's storybook -in eithe case, this is a trait almost every Zelda villain has
-like every Khorne worshipper ever
-again, this is the goal of every villain the Legend of Zelda series
-in that he follows Zelda around but then gives up on catching her when he finds her until she is practically handed to him on a platter.
-he decided to stay behind in order to annoy Link a little in order to give Zelda time to run off, is what you meant.
-the narcacist, most villains in any fantasy setting
-I don't think Ghirahim is a cannibal, and in any case, playing with his prey doesn't make him a good villain, it makes him an idiot. He's giving his target a chance to escape his clutches and his enemy a chance to fight back.
-again, every Khorne-esque villain ever
-In that he's exactly like the other villains but more girlishly narcasistic and slightly less Khornese?

Go back and play the game again, then tell me with a straight face that he is a good villan. You're making the character out to be more complex than he is -it's Nintendo for heaven's sake.

Originally Posted by Awesomecake

I find that Ghirahim was introduced way better, and he had more of a character, whereas Zant was just sort of vaguely menacing.

The idea behind Zant is that he was initially suppsoed to be introduced as a cold, myteriously powerful character. He is menacing in that he marches into the castle after his legions kill the castle soldiers and immediately takes over the entire kingdom. He is the dark ruler from another world. You're not supposed to know much about him, why does he just appear at such random points? Why does he continue to postpone Link's defeat? (sounds familiar?)

Originally Posted by Awesomecake

He was built on later, but then he turned out to be pretty pathetic. Ghirahim had a great character throughout and was a constant thorn in Link's side.

-Zant is indeed a pathetic character, he is only as powerful as he is because of the powerful false deity Ganondorf, who gives him the power to appear as the imposing, "vaguely menacing" when in actuality, his unstable mind forces him to disregard the more logical approach. He is a betetr villain in this regard in that he acts as the puppet to the Big bad and he takes it all into his stride.
-Ghirahim is a constant thorn in link's side? In that he shows up momentarily to get his ass kicked by Link or to get slapped on the wrist? See "Team Rocket"

I would list my reasons why I find Ghirahim a much better, effective, and threatening villain than Zant, but all the haters are going to rip me to shreds and claim I only like Ghirahim for superficial reasons, so I'll just leave this here:



Seriously guys, it's okay to dislike a character, but could you, I don't know, tone down the fanboy rage a little? It's intimidating.

Zant for me. His crazy badassery knows no bounds! Although Ghrahim's apparent sadism still holds a place in my heart.



Also, Durgey, Y U H8 KHORNE?!?!?!?


TZEENTCH WORSHIPPER! KILL IT!

Zant's character was more interesting than the chiche sadist villain.

The insane ones are the cool ones.

My vote goes for Ghirahim, I love his bizzare personality and his attitude.. I just love it! lol
Besides... I didn't quite liked Zant... I mean.. he's cool and stuff but ...just no.

I loved zant as he started off as a mysterious relaxed character and reveals to be a quite insane, mad person.

Originally Posted by MKBreeg

I didn't quite liked Zant... I mean.. he's cool and stuff but ...just no.

care to elaborate?

They're about the same. Zant's laugh creeped me out , and Ghirahim wore diamond earrings.

Originally Posted by Durgey

care to elaborate?

Sometimes characters just don't 'click' for people, and other times you like them illogically.
Like Byrne in ST. Normally I hate baddies who suddenly go " nah, I'll be good", but I just like Byrne for some reason. Or Fi, who I have a totally illogical hatred for.


Filthy Tzeentchian...

I'm not gonna lie, I hated Zant.

Sure, you could argue that he is cold and calculating and he was able to catch the Hylian army surprised (along with killing Rutela and other cruel deeds) But everything comes crashing down when you realize how silly and ridiculous his fight actually is (I just replayed it yesterday) For a "Cold" and "calculating" villain he sure does pull a Majora when it comes to fighting, I never felt intimidated every time he launches his multi ball beam attacking while screaming AGAGAGAGAGA, or how everything he does is played for in a comically matter (like hitting him with the ball n chain causes him to shrink down and grab his foot, or hitting him with a boomerang has him jumping silly on the water or his sword slashing attack or the spin ability which causes him to slow down or when he jumps like a little kid on the magnetic platform) I mean come on Nintendo, what happened to Mr. Cold Zant who was basically used the Spirit of Light to essentially almost kill Midna? You could argue that he is supposed to be crazy, but why did they make him out to be Rutheless and Rational in the beginning? I'll even DARE admit that Chancellor Cole and Majora were much better villains than Zant!

This is why I have to vote for Ghirahim because not only did he stay in character throughout the whole game, but he becomes much more threatening and sinister each time you fight him.

Originally Posted by SirXblade

I mean come on Nintendo, what happened to Mr. Cold Zant who was basically used the Spirit of Light to essentially almost kill Midna? You could argue that he is supposed to be crazy, but why did they make him out to be Rutheless and Rational in the beginning?

I think you've missed the point of the character. Zant is a pathetic character -he is weak and simply very ambitious, and completely crazy to boot. He's initally supposed to appear threatening because of the influence of Ganondorf -who gave him his powers-. Zant is intentionally supposed to be unthreatening by the end -he's not the real enemy, he's just some madman with too much power in his hands -power he doesn't know how to use properly. He is an effective villain in that he feels like a danger to the character intially but the danger is almost entirely false -Ganondorf is revealed to be the big bad and he is the one calling the shots and putting you through hell. Zant is a character of deceit.

Originally Posted by SirXblade

This is why I have to vote for Ghirahim because not only did he stay in character throughout the whole game, but he becomes much more threatening and sinister each time you fight him.

I don't understand people that are intimdiated by Debbie, if anything he becomes less and less threatening every time you fight him (a la Zant)
-with the first 2 fights, he is his flamboyant self with barely and difference in difficulty or strategy; hell he is just a recycled "first boss" -generally the easiest of all bosses-.
You say Ghirahim "stayed-in character" -through that, I think you mean that you didn't notice any character development and that makes him a good character -you are wrong on both accounts. Even comparitively to Zant, he is still a bad villain.
He begins the game as a cocky, overconfident servant that pops up momentarily to hidner Link's progress -both times Link trounces him and he retreats following the battle -claiming Link is still weaker than him. Excuse me if I have a little trouble believing him when he is clearly battered and wheezing for air. By the final encounter, Ghirahim only manages to capture the princess through the protagonists' pure stupidity. Ghirahim retreats and starts the ritual, wherein he finally confronts the hero in his true form. If Ghirahim would have seen Link as an actual threat, he'd have done so from the beginning; he did not recognise this as a proper threat -in ALL the instances he confronts Link.
The transformation is invoked Ghirahim's admittance that Link is an important threat and even then he claims he's a superior fighter- if only to distract him from Zelda. Ghirahim is weak -and he knows it

but then again the final boss against Debbie was one of the few parts of the game that was done well and I'm inclined to give him a bonus point for that, considering Zant's fight is also mostly recycling until the more creative part at the end. I'm not sure what to say about their performances there...

This entire discussion is rather odd in that both are essentially very similar characters in relation to story and their role, just with different initial concepts. The preference of one over another need be explained but within the context of the games themselves the effectiveness of the villain varies. From my personal experience, I find Ghirahim is a lot weaker as an antagonist through his recurring appearances, annoying and lazy character design, but also due to the story's writing.

I believe Ganondorf has a response


---------- Post added at 07:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:16 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Anithene

I would list my reasons why I find Ghirahim a much better, effective, and threatening villain than Zant, but all the haters are going to rip me to shreds and claim I only like Ghirahim for superficial reasons

Well provided they haven't already been mentioned and are valid reasonings and interpretations of character compared to the other, they are perfectly fine to say. You give good reasoning, then you've easily proven your interest in a character is not rabbid fanboyism (fangirlism?)
I don't know about you but I'm not even a huge fan of Zant -he's not exactly the greatest villain ever but I have to say he's a great deal better than Ghirahim; who has garnered far more fans than he really deserves.

Originally Posted by Durgey

I think you've missed the point of the character. Zant is a pathetic character -he is weak and simply very ambitious, and completely crazy to boot. He's initally supposed to appear threatening because of the influence of Ganondorf -who gave him his powers-. Zant is intentionally supposed to be unthreatening by the end -he's not the real enemy, he's just some madman with too much power in his hands -power he doesn't know how to use properly. He is an effective villain in that he feels like a danger to the character intially but the danger is almost entirely false -Ganondorf is revealed to be the big bad and he is the one calling the shots and putting you through hell. Zant is a character of deceit.

Except how was he able to stand up to a Spirit of Light whom not only helped seal away the Dark Interlopers and yet barely was able to even fight against Link, one is a God (although not all powerful), the other a hylian swordsman? And quite honestly the whole "him appearing strong but is actually weak character" is just a bad concept in general, I mean most of Ganon's Dragons(secondary antagonists)(Onox, Veran, Agahnim,Twinrova ,Vaati in Four Swords Adventue) at least have a backbone and are able to be almost as threatening as Ganon. Zant not being able to hold out on his own doesn't make sense because why on earth would Ganondorf choose someone so weak to be his general? wouldn't that undermine Ganondorf if he choose someone so weak that a pathetic hero and imp could easily destroy him?

I don't understand people that are intimdiated by Debbie, if anything he becomes less and less threatening every time you fight him (a la Zant)
-with the first 2 fights, he is his flamboyant self with barely and difference in difficulty or strategy; hell he is just a recycled "first boss" -generally the easiest of all bosses-.
You say Ghirahim "stayed-in character" -through that, I think you mean that you didn't notice any character development and that makes him a good character -you are wrong on both accounts. Even comparitively to Zant, he is still a bad villain.
He begins the game as a cocky, overconfident servant that pops up momentarily to hidner Link's progress -both times Link trounces him and he retreats following the battle -claiming Link is still weaker than him. Excuse me if I have a little trouble believing him when he is clearly battered and wheezing for air. By the final encounter, Ghirahim only manages to capture the princess through the protagonists' pure stupidity. Ghirahim retreats and starts the ritual, wherein he finally confronts the hero in his true form. If Ghirahim would have seen Link as an actual threat, he'd have done so from the beginning; he did not recognise this as a proper threat -in ALL the instances he confronts Link.

I find it a little amusing that you claim I missed the point of Zant's character and yet your missing the point of Ghirahim's character. He is supposed to be Arrogant, cocky and flamboyant, he represents everything that SS Link stands against. Also he represents the polar opposite of Fi (Extreme emotional behavior contrasts to logical extreme) He is supposed to be an evil weapon who's only goal in life is constant bloodshed, thats why he is trying to resurrect his master. (Evil Weapon = kill everything in sight vs Good = Logical approach)Thats why he is intimidating, a literal living weapon of mass destruction. He doesn't see Link as a threat because what harm could Link do to a weapon? Link is a bag of flesh to him. It would be like ant vs a spider. He doesn't give his all in the first fight with Link because he has no idea what skills Link could possibly have at the moment. Would you prefer if he bows in respect toward Link and call him his Master instead? or would it suit you more if he had no idea how to use a sword and essentially fight in a erratic way like Zant? and yet have it all reveal to us that the only way Ghirahim was even able to capture Zelda (and possibly defeat Impa) was because Demise waved his scaly fingers and Ghirahim put on a magic mask that allowed him to become cold and calculating?


The ONLY similarities I can see between him and Zant are their loyalties toward their masters.

The transformation is invoked Ghirahim's admittance that Link is an important threat and even then he claims he's a superior fighter- if only to distract him from Zelda. Ghirahim is weak -and he knows it

All villains have flaws, thats kind of the point of a villain. Because Ghirahim is a living weapon, he admits that Link is a worthy foe because he doesn't have a high opinion of other living beings.

but then again the final boss against Debbie was one of the few parts of the game that was done well and I'm inclined to give him a bonus point for that, considering Zant's fight is also mostly recycling until the more creative part at the end. I'm not sure what to say about their performances there...

The Final battle against him is really what makes the point of why he is a successful villain, Not only does he succeed at resurrecting his Master, but his revelation that he is a living weapon makes him more intimidating because its a force to be reckoned with.

This entire discussion is rather odd in that both are essentially very similar characters in relation to story and their role, just with different initial concepts. The preference of one over another need be explained but within the context of the games themselves the effectiveness of the villain varies. From my personal experience, I find Ghirahim is a lot weaker as an antagonist through his recurring appearances, annoying and lazy character design, but also due to the story's writing.

thats pretty subjective, I could argue that same thing about Zant's concept and design and execution as a character.

I believe Ganondorf has a response


---------- Post added at 07:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:16 PM ----------

I really don't see the point of this video other than just another attempt at unsuccessful mockery due to your subjective stance on Zant. which really just makes your point even more unclear.

Zant killed Ganondorf by turning his head to the side a little...so...yeah.

Originally Posted by SirXblade

Except how was he able to stand up to a Spirit of Light whom not only helped seal away the Dark Interlopers and yet barely was able to even fight against Link, one is a God (although not all powerful), the other a hylian swordsman? And quite honestly the whole "him appearing strong but is actually weak character" is just a bad concept in general, I mean most of Ganon's Dragons(secondary antagonists)(Onox, Veran, Agahnim,Twinrova ,Vaati in Four Swords Adventue) at least have a backbone and are able to be almost as threatening as Ganon. Zant not being able to hold out on his own doesn't make sense because why on earth would Ganondorf choose someone so weak to be his general? wouldn't that undermine Ganondorf if he choose someone so weak that a pathetic hero and imp could easily destroy him?

Zant was used by Ganondorf to escape the Twilight Realm and be brought back into Hyrule to take the throne. In return, Zant destroys his own kingdom, usurps the Twilight throne, and covers Hyrule in Twilight. Since the number of possible recruits in the Twilight Realm were probably not very high, Ganondorf entrusted Zant, as Zant was a broken man that Ganondorf could easily take advantage of and manipulate. Zant actually proved himself to be a very capable ruler, as things were finally going his way until Link and Midna ruin it all for him. All of the stress building up inside of him eventually released in his manic final battle.

And that isn't weak, it's human. One of the main points the game was trying to get across was that there are another species out there called the Twili, and they aren't too different from us. Some can be good (such as Midna) and others can be corrupted (like Zant).

Furthermore, Link and Midna didn't just come in and kick his ass. The majority of their adventure is them trying to find a way to destroy the seemingly-unbeatable Usurper King.

Originally Posted by SirXblade

I find it a little amusing that you claim I missed the point of Zant's character and yet your missing the point of Ghirahim's character. He is supposed to be Arrogant, cocky and flamboyant, he represents everything that SS Link stands against. Also he represents the polar opposite of Fi (Extreme emotional behavior contrasts to logical extreme) He is supposed to be an evil weapon who's only goal in life is constant bloodshed, thats why he is trying to resurrect his master. (Evil Weapon = kill everything in sight vs Good = Logical approach)Thats why he is intimidating, a literal living weapon of mass destruction. He doesn't see Link as a threat because what harm could Link do to a weapon? Link is a bag of flesh to him. It would be like ant vs a spider. He doesn't give his all in the first fight with Link because he has no idea what skills Link could possibly have at the moment. Would you prefer if he bows in respect toward Link and call him his Master instead? or would it suit you more if he had no idea how to use a sword and essentially fight in a erratic way like Zant? and yet have it all reveal to us that the only way Ghirahim was even able to capture Zelda (and possibly defeat Impa) was because Demise waved his scaly fingers and Ghirahim put on a magic mask that allowed him to become cold and calculating?

I do enjoy Ghirahim's sword-like nature as well -- he's flashy, bloodthirsty, and, to an extent, somewhat honorable. He is a really cool villain. However, the reason why I enjoy Zant more is because, while Ghirahim is very cool, he is not very relatable.

Most of us have had hard times in our lives that were miserable to experience and hard to remember. Most of us have had a point in our lives where something we've wanted was not given to us, and that made us angry/bitter. Zant is a miserable and bitter villain who was torn away from what he wanted and, instead of getting a chance to recover from the emotional wounds he was facing, his misery and bitterness was festered and furthered by Ganondorf's evil.

This, I believe, makes Zant a more personable character and makes his actions seem more scary. It gives a conflict: if someone in this state of mind that we all go through is given power, is (s)he above committing atrocities with it?

Furthermore, Zant's entire story is rather sad. He was brought down, used. and thrown to the side, dead, because he was dragged into some eternal and holy war of the Triforce, and he had absolutely no idea what he was signing up for when Ganondorf gave him his power. Sincerely, had Ganondorf not been involved, Zant possibly could have just moved on and lived for more years to come. Instead, his depression, along with Ganondorf's influence, turns him into a sociopath and he winds up living long enough to see his ploy fail before being painfully killed by...exploding.

It's a bit more tragic and thought-provoking, in my opinion, and so that's another reason why my vote goes to Zant.

Originally Posted by SirXblade

All villains have flaws, thats kind of the point of a villain. Because Ghirahim is a living weapon, he admits that Link is a worthy foe because he doesn't have a high opinion of other living beings.

That's not necessarily a flaw, per se. It would be a flaw if his overconfidence led him to believe that Link was NOT a worthy foe.

Originally Posted by SirXblade

The Final battle against him is really what makes the point of why he is a successful villain, Not only does he succeed at resurrecting his Master, but his revelation that he is a living weapon makes him more intimidating because its a force to be reckoned with.

Ehh, the same can be said for Zant. Zant successfully brought back HIS master, and his revelation that he's a grief-stricken lunatic makes him more intimidating because he's an unpredictable force of power that makes one hesitant to oppose.

---------- Post added at 08:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:14 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Demon King Demise

Zant killed Ganondorf by turning his head to the side a little...so...yeah.

Ehh, I think that was more symbolic than anything else. I think Zant was dead as a doornail by the time Ganondorf himself was struck dead.