2D Metroid: The Most Ingenious Design Ever?

And Andross, if you honestly think Sonic, even if it was Sonic in his heyday, had better level design the Super Metroid, then you need immediate brain surgery. I loved Genesis Sonic, but even I can see Metroid is superior.

No, Super Metroid really isn't that great. The environments are dull and uninspired (As opposed to Sonic 3), the music isn't pleasant to listen to (As opposed to Sonic 3), the bosses are easily predictable (Which removes room for arguments based on the ease of Sonic 3's bosses), navigating the levels is tedious (As opposed to Sonic 3), the gameplay wasn't as smooth as Sonic 3's (This only applies to Sonic 3, as Sonic 1 and 2 had far more problems; Sonic 3 perfected the feel)...

Don't get me wrong. Super Metroid was a very good game, but Sonic 3 (& Knuckles) was infinitely more fun and enjoyable.

Originally Posted by Andross

No, Super Metroid really isn't that great. The environments are dull and uninspired (As opposed to Sonic 3)

Wait, what!?

the music isn't pleasant to listen to (As opposed to Sonic 3),

Wait, what!?

the bosses are easily predictable (Which removes room for arguments based on the ease of Sonic 3's bosses),

The majority, granted. Crocomire certainly wasn't though (ever tried Power Bombing him?), and if you figured out the trick of easily defeating Draygon on your first playthrough, you almost certainly used a guide.

navigating the levels is tedious (As opposed to Sonic 3),

Wait, what!?

the gameplay wasn't as smooth as Sonic 3's (This only applies to Sonic 3, as Sonic 1 and 2 had far more problems; Sonic 3 perfected the feel)...

Wait, what!?

Don't get me wrong. Super Metroid was a very good game, but Sonic 3 (& Knuckles) was infinitely more fun and enjoyable.

Andross, I literally did a double take at every single thing you just said. If I'd had a drink, I'd have choked to death. Super Metroid is far superior to Sonic 3 & Knuckles.

Originally Posted by Crab Helmet

Wait, what!?

Wait, what!?

Nope.

Nope.

Nope.

Sorry, but Sonic 3 has far more interesting, dynamic, and stylish environments and music.

Wait, what!?

Tedious as in having to spend long amounts of time traveling through already cleared areas in order to backtrack. Sure, I understand the need to preserve immersion, but they could have at least added in some "warp points" or whatever to make backtracking less of a pain.

However, the quicksand areas are unnecessarily frustrating (And there's a difference between being "challenging" and "frustrating;" one is a positive trait, whereas the other is negative).

Wait, what!?

The wall jump controls are unnecessarily frustrating to get the hang of. There's no point in posting a video of someone who's obviously played through the game before.

Again, this is another example of Super Metroid being hard not because it legitimately challenges the gamer's skills, but because of unnecessarily tedious or frustrating moments (Of course, admittedly, this may be because I played it on an emulator and with a keyboard, but that shouldn't be an issue).

There is a much more pleasant and natural feel when controlling Sonic in Sonic 3 than Samus in Super Metroid.

Andross, I literally did a double take at every single thing you just said. If I'd had a drink, I'd have choked to death. Super Metroid is far superior to Sonic 3 & Knuckles.

Sorry, but you really haven't shown how Super Metroid is more enjoyable than Sonic 3. Sonic 3 (& Knuckles) is far superior to Super Metroid.

Warp points. Hehehe. That was funny.

You're silly, Andross.

Andross:

That's nice, but hardly anyone would agree with you.

Originally Posted by Alex

Warp points. Hehehe. That was funny.

You're silly, Andross.

Funny only if you like tedious level design (Spending a large amount of time backtracking over already-traversed terrain without any way to lessen the amount of time).

You know I've brought up how Super Metroid wasn't very great with you before, Alex, yet you've never really given a good counter-argument. Give a real argument in favor of this aspect of the game.

Andross:

That's nice, but hardly anyone would agree with you.

Maybe not here, as Nintendo-centric as this site is.

Plenty of people agree that the old-school Sonic games were some of the finest examples of classic gaming. If you think there aren't many people who think that, then you obviously haven't seen very many gamers.

I sort of can't see why Super Metroid is being hailed as possibly the greatest SNES game ever, but I do have to say that it's fun despite its problems.
The backtracking thing isn't the biggest problem if you play the game in the "real" order, unless you miss something along the way. The map is there to help you (although I wish there was a way to tell the difference between powerups you've gotten and ones you haven't).

Originally Posted by Andross

Maybe not here, as Nintendo-centric as this site is.

Oh that is just about the stupidest thing you can do to try to back up your argument.

Originally Posted by Tonchiki

Oh that is just about the stupidest thing you can do to try to back up your argument.

A website for Zelda fans is going to have plenty of people who are also Nintendo fans. Make sense?

Originally Posted by Andross

Nope.

Nope.

Nope.

Wait, since when an ice mountain original? Or a castle? Or a water zone?

Sorry, but Sonic 3 has far more interesting, dynamic, and stylish environments and music.

The environments were dynamic, yes, but I'd hesitate at interesting. They always seemed fairly standard platforming fair to me. Also, as much as I loved it, I always thought Sonic 3 & Knuckles's music was the major flaw in the game - it's peppy, upbeat music the whole way through, and gets really irritating after a while. There's no variety to it, and it is rather simplistic.

Tedious as in having to spend long amounts of time traveling through already cleared areas in order to backtrack. Sure, I understand the need to preserve immersion, but they could have at least added in some "warp points" or whatever to make backtracking less of a pain.

That's just because you are bad at playing Super Metroid. A good player will never need to backtrack. Don't blame the game for your inadequate skills.

However, the quicksand areas are unnecessarily frustrating (And there's a difference between being "challenging" and "frustrating;" one is a positive trait, whereas the other is negative).

Again, don't blame the game for your mediocre skills. I found them challenging, but not frustrating. It was amazing, having to fend off Mochtroids while spinning via grappling hook over sinking sand, it added pressure and atmosphere without being ridiculous. Super Metroid was never, ever, frustrating for me.

The wall jump controls are unnecessarily frustrating to get the hang of. There's no point in posting a video of someone who's obviously played through the game before.

Again, don't blame the game for your mediocre skills. That's easily possible to do by your second run through, and ordinary wall jumping can be mastered on your first.

Again, this is another example of Super Metroid being hard not because it legitimately challenges the gamer's skills, but because of unnecessarily tedious or frustrating moments (Of course, admittedly, this may be because I played it on an emulator and with a keyboard, but that shouldn't be an issue).

Why? The beauty of Super Metroid is that none of these things are necessary. it's simply one of multiple ways to solve puzzles. And incidentally, it is a tad easier on the emulator because you can alternate between the arrow keys more quickly to flick from the wall. So yeah, you just aren't very good at the game.

There is a much more pleasant and natural feel when controlling Sonic in Sonic 3 than Samus in Super Metroid.

I'd disagree. Samus often felt like an extension of me. Super Metroid has incredibly tight controls. Meanwhile, Sonic in Sonic 3 always felt hugely exaggerated in every move he made (I view that as part of the charm, it's in his character to make susbtantial movement, but even so, I'd never call the controls pleasant or tight. Natural maybe, but even then, not as natural as Samus).

Sorry, but you really haven't shown how Super Metroid is more enjoyable than Sonic 3. Sonic 3 (& Knuckles) is far superior to Super Metroid.

I just did. What I see here, is someone who played the game maybe once, without paying attention to all the little tricks, got lost constantly because they couldn't figure out the maps, and sucked at grappling hook control, complaining.

EDIT: I'm somewhat amused you call me Nintendo-centric. I really did like Sonic 3 and Knuckles, it's a 90/100 game, and one of the best platformers, outshining most (if not quite all) Mario titles. But it just doesn't compare to Super Metroid.

Originally Posted by Andross

A website for Zelda fans is going to have plenty of people who are also Nintendo fans. Make sense?

You must know by now that most people in this section aren't limited to that category, and it's certainly not what they're basing their views on Metroid on.

Originally Posted by Crab Helmet

I'd disagree. Samus often felt like an extension of me. Super Metroid has incredibly tight controls. Meanwhile, Sonic in Sonic 3 always felt hugely exaggerated in every move he made (I view that as part of the charm, it's in his character to make susbtantial movement, but even so, I'd never call the controls pleasant or tight. Natural maybe, but even then, not as natural as Samus).

I'd actually say I wasn't too fond of the physics in the game as opposed to Fusion and Zero Mission. However, the controls were never bad for me, especially after I got used to them.

...Actually, okay, having to use the Select button to set up your weapons sucked, but besides that.

I didn't like the physics in Zero Mission and Fusion. I tolerated it in Fusion on story based grounds - if it is a human research facility, it's likely to have human style gravity, fairly fast. But part of SM's allure to me was that the gravity was not Earth-like. Zebes has its own gravity, that wasn't as powerful. I really didn't like the fact they removed that in Zero Mission.

EDIT: and yeah, the select button thing was one of about two bad things about Super Metroid. Still, I prefered it to ZM and FM, again. Letting your entire missile stock become your difussion missile stock in Fusion was stupid. You ended the game with the power to rape **** without even trying. At least in SM you occasionally had to conserve ammo, adding to the intensely alone feel. I can't really see a mid-point, though - something which would conserve separate ammo stocks, without having a fiddly button choice.

Originally Posted by Andross

Funny only if you like tedious level design (Spending a large amount of time backtracking over already-traversed terrain without any way to lessen the amount of time).

You know I've brought up how Super Metroid wasn't very great with you before, Alex, yet you've never really given a good counter-argument. Give a real argument in favor of this aspect of the game.

Wait, wait, didn't you love Metroid Prime? Where the best part of the game involved backtracking across the entire game?

There is no backtracking in Super Metroid. Everything is new every time you go anywhere. Try "backtracking" in Super Metroid with new abilities. I guarantee you discover several new missile expansions, or a couple health tanks. Ever try shinesparking in the very first room, with your ship?

Back tracking obviously isn't the problem, because you claim to love Metroid Prime, where there are no warp points, and the world is even larger and more tedious to travel across than Super Metroid's, due to space pirates and chozo ghosts constantly spawning.

Traveling across the planet in Super Metroid is fast and easy, because movement is so fast exploration is so satisfying.

The wall jump controls are unnecessarily frustrating to get the hang of. There's no point in posting a video of someone who's obviously played through the game before.

Again, this is another example of Super Metroid being hard not because it legitimately challenges the gamer's skills, but because of unnecessarily tedious or frustrating moments (Of course, admittedly, this may be because I played it on an emulator and with a keyboard, but that shouldn't be an issue).

I really hate to pull the "you suck" card, but dude... it sounds like you're just horrible at Super Metroid. There's really no other way to explain it.

My friend Andy came over after not playing Super Metroid for 10 years, and he was wall jumping within an hour.

Edit: And bad controls can't be an issue, because you can customize them.

You can travel from the depths of Tourian to the top Crateria in less than 5 minutes. That's from the two furthest away points of the map to the other.

In fact, you actually have to in order to complete the game.

Originally Posted by Crab Helmet

Wait, since when an ice mountain original? Or a castle? Or a water zone?

Since when was a swamp level original? A volcano level? A mechanical-themed level?

Super Metroid has plenty of level design cliches that many other videogames use. Note that I was placing emphasis on how interesting and dynamic the levels were (Which they were; out of most "ice mountains," "castles," or "water zones," these stand out.)

The environments were dynamic, yes, but I'd hesitate at interesting. They always seemed fairly standard platforming fair to me.

Most of Super Metroid's environments seemed pretty standard to me.

Also, as much as I loved it, I always thought Sonic 3 & Knuckles's music was the major flaw in the game - it's peppy, upbeat music the whole way through, and gets really irritating after a while. There's no variety to it, and it is rather simplistic.

Most of Super Metroid's music was slow and foreboding. Not much variety there, either.

In addition, while most of the background music was upbeat, the music was hardly similar. You can't stack up Angel Island's, Ice Cap's, and Marble Garden's zone themes up against eachother and call them "similar."

That's just because you are bad at playing Super Metroid. A good player will never need to backtrack. Don't blame the game for your inadequate skills.

I thought the idea behind the Metroid series was to explore the world. You know, head back to already traversed areas to enter new areas and find new items, once you've achieved the abilities to unlock those new areas and items. Oh well; guess I had the wrong idea about the game.

Or you mistook what I meant when I said "backtracking."

Again, don't blame the game for your mediocre skills. I found them challenging, but not frustrating. It was amazing, having to fend off Mochtroids while spinning via grappling hook over sinking sand, it added pressure and atmosphere without being ridiculous. Super Metroid was never, ever, frustrating for me.

I wasn't talking about the puzzles; rather, how once you get stuck in the sand, you must jump at the perfect moment to get out. Don't tell me you didn't find the sand unnecessarily difficult to get out of, and that the developers could have designed the quicksand far more gracefully. It's the little things like this.

Again, don't blame the game for your mediocre skills. That's easily possible to do by your second run through, and ordinary wall jumping can be mastered on your first.

If the game is designed well enough, it should be easily possible by your first.

Yes, ordinary wall jumping can be mastered on your first, but it shouldn't take a large number of tries to do so.

Mastering the controls of the game's player character shouldn't provide the challenge; rather, the levels and puzzles should be what provides the challenge.

Why? The beauty of Super Metroid is that none of these things are necessary. it's simply one of multiple ways to solve puzzles.

There are not multiple ways to solve puzzles, however. Most of the puzzles in the game are tailored for certain items. The wall jumping mechanic is one of the few "optional" abilities in the game that can be used to solve puzzles (And it is a large exaggeration to say that the optional abilities like the wall jump make the game far less painful, as most puzzles are built around specific abilities; maybe slightly less painful, but that's about it).

I'd disagree. Samus often felt like an extension of me. Super Metroid has incredibly tight controls. Meanwhile, Sonic in Sonic 3 always felt hugely exaggerated in every move he made (I view that as part of the charm, it's in his character to make susbtantial movement, but even so, I'd never call the controls pleasant or tight. Natural maybe, but even then, not as natural as Samus).

I still disagree. Samus felt slow and clunky to control. There was no feeling of fluidity at all, unlike the feeling I gained as I controlled Sonic.

I just did. What I see here, is someone who played the game maybe once, without paying attention to all the little tricks, got lost constantly because they couldn't figure out the maps, and sucked at grappling hook control, complaining.

I'm still not seeing it; you haven't convinced me that Super Metroid's level design, music, fluidity of controls, and overall enjoyability outmatch Sonic 3's.

You must know by now that most people in this section aren't limited to that category, and it's certainly not what they're basing their views on Metroid on.

Honestly, if people are going to say that few people are going to agree that the classic Sonic games were some of the finest examples of 2D gaming, there must be some superficial bias involved (As there are many, many people who do believe that classic Sonic was masterfully designed).

I really hate to pull the "you suck" card, but dude... it sounds like you're just horrible at Super Metroid. There's really no other way to explain it.

Why am I horrible at the entire game when I'm claiming that the puzzles and bosses were predictable and easy? No, the "main parts" of the game weren't hard at all; it's all of the little things like the quicksand and the wall-jumping that I found tedious; and I can assure you, there are plenty of other gamers out there who probably found them unnecessarily tedious, as well.

Originally Posted by Andross

Since when was a swamp level original? A volcano level? A mechanical-themed level?

Red Soil Brinstar is amazing, as is the Wrecked Ship.

Super Metroid has plenty of level design cliches that many other videogames use. Note that I was placing emphasis on how interesting and dynamic the levels were (Which they were; out of most "ice mountains," "castles," or "water zones," these stand out.)

Aside from Ice Cap (although I always loved Ice Cap), the other two seem fairly standard fair to me. They're dynamic, sure, but nothing can compete with how dynamic the environments in Super Metroid. If you think they aren't dynamic, then you must be goddamn awful at the game. Try bombing things, and see what happens.

Most of Super Metroid's environments seemed pretty standard to me.

Most of Sonic 3's environments seemed pretty standard to me.

Most of Super Metroid's music was slow and foreboding. Not much variety there, either.

I'm sorry? Spore Spawn's theme? Kraid's theme? Jungle Brinstar's theme? Ridley's theme? Mother Brain's theme? Maridia Sand's theme?

In addition, while most of the background music was upbeat, the music was hardly similar. You can't stack up Angel Island's, Ice Cap's, and Marble Garden's zone themes up against eachother and call them "similar."

Oh, they're likeable enough as individual pieces, but altogether, after a while, they get on my nerves. You can only take so much incessant cheeriness.

I thought the idea behind the Metroid series was to explore the world. You know, head back to already traversed areas to enter new areas and find new items, once you've achieved the abilities to unlock those new areas and items. Oh well; guess I had the wrong idea about the game.

Or you mistook what I meant when I said "backtracking."

That's the beauty of Metroid, you can do it like you want. Want to explore for more? Go backtrack. Got bored of bactracking? Continue onwards. You can do it however you want.

I wasn't talking about the puzzles; rather, how once you get stuck in the sand, you must jump at the perfect moment to get out. Don't tell me you didn't find the sand unnecessarily difficult to get out of, and that the developers could have designed the quicksand far more gracefully. It's the little things like this.

What in the... are you quite sure we played the same game? The quick sand is really quite easy to get of, providing you have the gravity suit. Even if you don't, using the grappling hook to gravity jump makes short work of it.

If the game is designed well enough, it should be easily possible by your first.

I couldn't disagree more. One of the things I loved about Super Metroid was that I could constantly find new things and perfect new techniques on subsequent playthroughs. It's never over in one sitting, and offers far more replay value than Sonic 3 could dream of.

Yes, ordinary wall jumping can be mastered on your first, but it shouldn't take a large number of tries to do so.

I could get one wall wall jumping on my second runthrough? Since when was second a lot?

Mastering the controls of the game's player character shouldn't provide the challenge; rather, the levels and puzzles should be what provides the challenge.

One wall wall jumping is just one way of doing it - you are never required to do it, it can just be used to do things a certain way. Don't like it? Try the equally hard morph ball and bomb/shinespark space jump/etc puzzle.

There are not multiple ways to solve puzzles, however. Most of the puzzles in the game are tailored for certain items. The wall jumping mechanic is one of the few "optional" abilities in the game that can be used to solve puzzles (And it is a large exaggeration to say that the optional abilities like the wall jump make the game far less painful, as most puzzles are built around specific abilities; maybe slightly less painful, but that's about it).

If you honestly believe this, then I really am sorry to say you actually suck at Super Metroid. You only need 14% of the game's items in order to complete it. (8% if you use various glitches, but I won't count that). Even then, most of those items are received before your first major boss, Kraid - it's basic stuff like the Morph Ball and bombs.

I still disagree. Samus felt slow and clunky to control. There was no feeling of fluidity at all, unlike the feeling I gained as I controlled Sonic.

I honestly having no idea what you are talking about. The shinespark space jump is one of the most fluid movement experiences I have ever had in gaming.

I'm still not seeing it; you haven't convinced me that Super Metroid's level design, music, fluidity of controls, and overall enjoyability outmatch Sonic 3's.

And I probably never will, it's a personal thing and you seem set in your ways, but I think the vast majority of gaming gourmets would prefer Super Metroid,

Honestly, if people are going to say that few people are going to agree that the classic Sonic games were some of the finest examples of 2D gaming, there must be some superficial bias involved (As there are many, many people who do believe that classic Sonic was masterfully designed).

I never said that, and it is masterfully designed. Just not quite as good as Super Metroid.

Just finished a quite impressive run of Metroid Zero Mission.



12% item completion on normal is pretty good (to put it into context, 9% is the bare minimum and 15% gets you the best ending on hard).

Meta Ridley gave me some trouble until I got used to his patterns. The gray space pirates at the end are a ***** too.

Originally Posted by King KK

I hate hate hate the physics engine.

This. I also find Super Metroid's fire rate being considerably slower to be a detriment.

Originally Posted by Crab Helmet

Even if you don't, using the grappling hook to gravity jump makes short work of it.

Here's the thing, though - if someone even has to reference advanced techniques and exploitations of the game's physics to explain how simple or deep the game actually is, that actually proves that the game is broken, not that it's necessarily a masterpiece.

I really like the physics of Super Metroid. Everything moved at a great pace.

I too love the physics of Super Metroid.

They're "loose," (compared to Fusion and Zero Mission) but not in a bad way. You just have to get a feel for them. MZM and Fusion have been dumbed down slightly in that advanced moves (wall kicks and bomb jumping) don't require as precise timing and the fire rate is faster.

Plus, I love the game's high vertical jump. It makes Zebes seem so much larger than in Zero Mission, for example.

Also, I did a sub hour run today:

Here's the thing, though - if someone even has to reference advanced techniques and exploitations of the game's physics to explain how simple or deep the game actually is, that actually proves that the game is broken, not that it's necessarily a masterpiece.

Not really, especially when the game's design accommodates and encourages those exploitations. The fact that the game can be played in so many different orders is a testament to its depth, not its brokenness. The design is catered to both novice and advanced players without even needing a difficulty level. That's brilliant.

After playing ZM extensively this summer, I will concede it has a leg up on SM in a few areas. The edge grab is nice, the shinespark is utilized even more, missiles are less cumbersome. Super Metroid, on the other hand, is grander, more atmospheric, more difficult, longer. Both are terrific. I haven't seen a better designed game than either.

Originally Posted by Black_Mamba

Not really, especially when the game's design accommodates and encourages those exploitations. The fact that the game can be played in so many different orders is a testament to its depth, not its brokenness.

I was referring more to the fact that Crab Helmet responded to complaints about the sand in Maridia by saying that getting out was easy because you could just gravity jump. I'm no novice at games, and I even had trouble - I can tell you that I will never use these "glitches" to get through the game because that's simply not my style of play, but the fact that they're so integral to making the game a good experience means that Super Metroid ultimately won't rub me that way.

This is in my opinion a design flaw - I will never be able to enjoy this aspect of the game because it alienates me, and it is an integral cornerstone of the game experience (you yourself just said that it is a testament to its depth). Fusion and ZM had similar secrets but did not alienate me in this way because advanced gameplay functions were simpler to perform.