Has Miyamoto Completely Sold Out?

Originally Posted by Dark Link

Oh! God forbid he make a game that actually provides some fulfilling difficulty. . .

Plenty of his past games are hard. I found Sunshine to have a nice amount of difficulty, myself.

I'd love to see what his standards are for a "hard" game. As stated before by Kee, he said TP was going to be hard. Look what the end results ending up giving us. One of the most linear (and, quite probably one of the most easiest) Zelda's to date.

No arguments there. But they also said it would be the "best Zelda ever", and I enjoyed TWW, MM, and OoT far more than TP. I never take their word on things like that, but noting that Miyamoto was trying to up the Galaxy difficulty is better than nothing.

Originally Posted by Tonchiki

Plenty of his past games are hard. I found Sunshine to have a nice amount of difficulty, myself.

I agree. However, as I've stated earlier, as of recently (I mean, ever since around the time of the release of the Wii), there's been hardly any fulfilling difficulty games from Nintendo. I'm sure you'd agree with me.

No arguments there. But they also said it would be the "best Zelda ever", and I enjoyed TWW, MM, and OoT far more than TP. I never take their word on things like that, but noting that Miyamoto was trying to up the Galaxy difficulty is better than nothing.

It's 'cause he's imprinted the idea into the minds of his designers that easy is best.

Originally Posted by Dark Link

I agree. However, as I've stated earlier, as of recently (I mean, ever since around the time of the release of the Wii), there's been hardly any fulfilling difficulty games from Nintendo. I'm sure you'd agree with me.

Yeah, pretty much. There have been some games ON the Wii with decent difficulty, but most of the time it's not from Nintendo. Metroid Prime games have always been hard, so I hope that 3 will be challenging.

It's 'cause he's imprinted the idea into the minds of his designers that easy is best.

Which is when those designers, if not Miyamoto himself, need to realize that both kinds of games- casual and hardcore- can live on one console together peacefully. I see no reason to ditch one, and I'm not quite sure why he does.

Originally Posted by KratosAurion

Hey, Mr. Genius, I got you some news: For MANY people, difficulty only makes the game more fun. Don't think you're talking on behalf of all gamers here. Of course difficulty is directly tied with the fun factor and quality of the game. I had much more fun beating Euryale in God of War 2 than beating these so called "fun" bosses in TWW for example. Get over it: Difficulty equals fun for many people, and you can't change that fact.

My name isn't Mr. Genius, it's Fish Head. Please do not try to insult me by calling me otherwise. Difficulty has nothing to do with how fun games are. If it did, we wouldn't have settings, and games would only be 'super-hard.' Question for you. Since when is opinion fact? I don't believe you are a census taker in any way, so making up 'facts' will not sway nor deter me. They will only make you look immature and arrogant.

Originally Posted by KratosAurion

That's also a very good sign of a mediocre product. If I'm expecting a complete package, then it's supposed to make me feel challenged without me interfering. That's how good games are: they put upgrades because you HAVE to use them unless you want to get yourself killed, which adds content to iy. They add guns because you HAVE to use them unless you want to get overrun by hard enemies.

Once upon a time, before electronics were made, people created their own fun. Saying that you expect your fun to always be made for you makes you look immature and lazy. You don't HAVE to get upgrades, unless you want the game to be easier for you. Look who doesn't like difficulty NOW/

Originally Posted by KratosAurion

How can he sell out? By spitting out all this bull**** in an interview. Miyamoto is not a god, stop being a fanboy. He clearly lost his touch in making videogames, and now it seems he's throwing everything out of the window.

I'm a fanboy? I don't believe I am the one who is complaining about his video games not being fun anymore. At what point did I say he was a god? I merely said that he has no one to sell out to. And who are you to judge whether or not he's lost his touch? I haven't seen you create something that generated billions of dollars in profit.

Originally Posted by KratosAurion

Do I ahve to miss content from a game in order to enjoy it? I see you're a conformist. That's the type of costumer Nintendo wants, good job .

I'm not validating this statement. You don't 'ahve' to miss content from a game to enjoy it, and I'll be whatever kind of 'costumer' I want. If I want to make Victorian outfits for a Shakespeare play, then I will.

Originally Posted by V99

Well I don't know about you, but Twilight Princess was un-satisfyingly easy. Yes most of us are pros and Zelda games would be a lot harder if we hadn't played one before. But TP was easy in all aspects, especially the enemies. Now how much time would it take to code a three level difficulty setting? Easy, Medium, Hard? Make all enemies harder to beat higher you go, IE they can take more hits and they do more damage to you.

Just that, would make the game a little more satisfyingly for the hardcore gamers.

And no we're not being hypocrites, we just simply want Nintendo to remember what made them all their money. "Casual" games weren't around 24 years ago.

But hey, who cares. My Wii is on Ebay, I might buy another one when the next Zelda comes out.

I stand corrected. Most are being hypocrites. I will admit it was rather easy, but I spent a good 20 hours on the loach (Including Rollgoal and the frog lure). 38 Beating the game. And another 10 with other stuff. And I still need 3 bottles of great fairy tears before I am 100% with the game. Not to mention about 15 more poes. I am determined not to use guide, so it is more satisfying that way.

Originally posted by Dark Link
I hardly doubt "traditions" (whatever that means) was the excuse Miyamoto had in mind when developing TP. It obviously lacked the difficulty OOT had. Enemies, puzzles, temples. Everything.

OoT had...difficulty?

*snicker*

Seriously, anyone who has great disdain for a particular Zelda game because of a lack of difficulty shouldn't like the entire series at all. Outside of AoL, which was just unfair most of the time, Zelda's never been hard. Challenge isn't what's made the series so great, it's the fantastic creativity that has.


I don't particularly like the idea of dumbing down the difficulty, but honestly I'm not that worried. The only important franchises I could see them doing that to is Zelda, Metroid and Mario. Even then, it's not that bad; Zelda's always been easy, Metroid will probably always have some type of hard mode after the game is completed, and traditional Mario platformers have never been crazy on the difficulty. Other than that, I don't have too many worries about Nintendo's games, at least those that are real games.

While we're on the topic of that, I'd like to point out just how successful those casual games have been for Nintendo. I've seen a lot of people in here chiding Nintendo and saying "remember what made you guys so popular in the first place". Yeah, that's easy to say, but the fact is, simply focusing on the core gamer isn't going to help them that much anymore. They did it with Gamecube, and found less than impressive results. Die-hard Nintendo fans may love all of their franchises, but most hardcore gamers were with Sony and Microsoft after the last gen, and Nintendo had awful third party support back then. Hell, they're only just starting to get solid games out of them now for Wii.

We core gamers may not like any of these casual titles, and I myself would like to see Nintendo tone down on the number of them, but criticizing the company for making products that garner boatloads of cash is, well, bone-headed. They're a business, they're out to make money, and these casual games are quickly putting them at the top of the video game market. A couple of years agom Nintendo appeared to be on their last legs, yet now, after appealing to the non-gamer with two different systems, they're the strongest they've been in probably over a decade.

And to those who say they're forgetting about the core gamer- that's a bunch of bullsh-t. If they forgot about their longtime fans and video game regulars, why did they make Mario Kart DS, Yoshi's Island DS, Elite Beat Agents, Pokemon Diamond/Pearl, New Super Mario Bros, Super Paper Mario, Twilight Princess, and Mario Strikers Charged? Why are they coming out with Phantom Hourglass, Advance Wars DS 2, Archaic Sealed Heat, Prime 3, Battalion Wars 2, Fire Emblem GoD, Galaxy, Brawl, Mario Kart Wii, Disaster DoC etc.?

I rest my case.

Originally Posted by Mirren

OoT had...difficulty?

*snicker*

Seriously, anyone who has great disdain for a particular Zelda game because of a lack of difficulty shouldn't like the entire series at all. Outside of AoL, which was just unfair most of the time, Zelda's never been hard. Challenge isn't what's made the series so great, it's the fantastic creativity that has.

Compared to most of Nintendo's games; I'd say Zelda provides a pretty adequate amount of difficulty; more than most of Nintendo's games anyways. It's not often you get a game from Nintendo that you get stuck on a particular part of the game for more then fifteen minutes.

Also, I was comparing OOT and TP; not the Zelda series and every other game out there. . .

While we're on the topic of that, I'd like to point out just how successful those games have been for Nintendo. I've seen a lot of people in here chiding Nintendo and saying "remember what made you guys so popular in the first place". Yeah, that's easy to say, but the fact is, simply focusing on the core gamer isn't going to help them that much anymore.

So it becomes justifiable to completely abandon hardcore gaming entirely?

They did it with Gamecube, and found less than impressive results. Die-hard Nintendo fans may love all of their franchises, but most hardcore gamers were with Sony and Microsoft after the last gen, and Nintendo had awful third party support back then. Hell, they're only just starting to get solid games out of them now for Wii.

Everyone was under the impression that the Gamecube was a "kiddy" console -- that's why majority of Nintendo's market was kids.

It's the same thing with the Wii, except now there's more pizazz, i.e. the Wiimote (outside the obvious Nintendo fanboy based market). People (or should I say, "kids") find the concept "new" and "exciting" (apparently). Nintendo has also done much more publicity with the Wii then they ever did with the GC.

We core gamers may not like any of these casual titles, and I myself would like to see Nintendo tone down on the number of them, but criticizing the company for making products that garner boatloads of cash is, well, bone-headed. They're a business, they're out to make money, and these casual games are quickly putting them at the top of the video game market. A couple of years agom Nintendo appeared to be on their last legs, yet now, after appealing to the non-gamer with two different systems, they're the strongest they've been in probably over a decade.

What I'm criticizing is the fact Miyamoto thinks that no difficulty is the "future of gaming." I don't know about you, but to even think that is pretty "bone-headed."

I'm not criticizing their success, but rather astonished by it. How can a system with such a weak library of games be so successful? I guess kids are interested in anything these days. That, and "E" rated games are the only games most parents would lets their kids play. They look at the Wii gaming section and see nothing but rated "E" games. They've seen the commercials and publicity, they've heard some impressions from other parents and (as Kee would put it) their "grandmas." So, they obviously want to buy as system for their kids that they can enjoy, but also retain their oh so "innocently impressionable little minds" (as a parent would put it).

Then there's of course the (seemingly) new and exciting "Wiimote" that provides a gaming experience that just takes it to a whole new level.

"It's like using your TV remote; only more interactive!"

By the way, this is no way meant to be a rant. It's only what impression I get when I see the Wii and its success as well as actual observation.

And to those who say they're forgetting about the core gamer- that's a bunch of bullsh-t. If they forgot about their longtime fans and video game regulars, why did they make Mario Kart DS, Yoshi's Island DS, Elite Beat Agents, Pokemon Diamond/Pearl, New Super Mario Bros, Super Paper Mario, Twilight Princess, Mario Strikers Charged and Twilight Princess? Why are they coming out with Phantom Hourglass, Advanced Wars 2, Archaic Sealed Heat, Prime 3, Battalion Wars 2, Fire Emblem GoD, Galaxy, Brawl, Mario Kart Wii, Disaster DoC etc.?

You said TP twice.

None of those released games aren't really that much harder than TP (except for maybe Elite Beat Agents; that game was annoyingly challenging). That's not saying much.

I can't debate with you about games that have yet been released; but I'm hoping that Nintendo doesn't fail to please. I still have hope for Nintendo. Unfortunately, this article simply spits, then stomps on my hope while arrogantly laughing at me, leaving me with nothing but a shred.

Originally posted by Dark Link
Compared to most of Nintendo's games; I'd say Zelda provides a pretty adequate amount of difficulty; more than most of Nintendo's games anyways. It's not often you get a game from Nintendo that you get stuck on a particular part of the game for more then fifteen minutes.

If it's harder than most Nintendo games, then that doesn't make hard right off the bat. There's plenty more to the gaming industry.

So it becomes justifiable to completely abandon hardcore gaming entirely?

No, it doesn't. But luckily, Nintendo has done that.

Everyone was under the impression that the Gamecube was a "kiddy" console -- that's why majority of Nintendo's market was kids.

Explain N64, then. That thing got trounced by the first console Sony ever made.

The the whole thing about Gamecube being comes from a lack of third party support. It wasn't a kiddy console right away, but after the first couple of years when basically all it had was Nintendo IP, it gained that infamous title.

What I'm criticizing is the fact Miyamoto thinks that no difficulty is the "future of gaming." I don't know about you, but to even think that is pretty "bone-headed."

I'm criticizing that, too. That's not what I'm defending.

I'm not criticizing their success, but rather astonished by it. How can a system with such a weak library of games be so successful? I guess kids are interested in anything these days. That, and "E" rated games are the only games most parents would lets their kids play. They look at the Wii gaming section and see nothing but rated "E" games. They've seen the commercials and publicity, they've heard some impressions from other parents and (as Kee would put it) their "grandma's." So, they obviously want to buy as system for their kids that they can enjoy, but also retain their or so "innocently impressionable little minds" (as a parent would put it).

To tell you the God's honest truth, I don't know a lot of kids under the age of ten that have a Wii. The majority that I've seen are at least fourteen and up.

I can almost assure you that the number of teens and adults that own a Wii is far greater than you may suspect right now.

You said TP twice.

Good spotting.

None of those released games aren't really that much harder than TP (except for maybe Elite Beat Agents; that game was annoyingly challenging). That's not saying much.

Most of those games have multiple difficulty settings, and on the highest levels can be pretty hard.

I can't debate with you about games that have yet been released; but I'm hoping that Nintendo doesn't fail to please. I still have hope for Nintendo. Unfortunately, this article simply stomps and spits on my hope while arrogantly laughing at me, leaving me with nothing but a shred.

Relax, Miyamoto doesn't have as much influence as you seem to think. That, and in case anyone hasn't noticed, a lot of Nintendo's franchises have had their most recent titles developed by second party companies. Miyamoto's ideas can only stretch so far.

Hey yeah guys I'd like to say something real quick. Mirren, you said Disaster Day of Crisis and I'd like to say, I think we can pretty much say that DOC is pretty much canned. I mean, First Hammer was canned and I was really looking forward to that and we haven't hear dof DOC for months, same as Hammer and, weel, that's all I really have to say.

Originally Posted by Mirren

If it's harder than most Nintendo games, then that doesn't make hard right off the bat. There's plenty more to the gaming industry.

I undoubtedly agree. Difficulty does obviously has its stance on the gaming industry though. I mean, what are we debating about right now?

No, it doesn't. But luckily, Nintendo has done that.

I'm assuming you mean "hasn't."

I hate to keep repeating myself (I just know I'm going to get some sort of sassy comment from stating that), but judging by this article, I'd say it's what Miyamoto wants.

Explain N64, then. That thing got trounced by the first console Sony ever made.

In all honesty, I can't. However, I do know that the N64 had a undesirable library to most people. The same could be said for the GC.

The the whole thing about Gamecube being comes from a lack of third party support. It wasn't a kiddy console right away, but after the first couple of years when basically all it had was Nintendo IP, it gained that infamous title.

The Gamecube initially obviously left some sort of undesirable impression to third-party supporters. Otherwise, according to what you say, it should have done rather well in the beginning.

The Gamecube only had about five single-platform M rated games and around thirty-five M rated games total. Nintendo themselves only made one rated M game and seven rated T games.

That would/could definitely give an impression that the GC is not necessarily meant for "older" games, and is mostly geared toward kids.

I'm criticizing that, too. That's not what I'm defending.

Understood.

To tell you the God's honest truth, I don't know a lot of kids under the age of ten that have a Wii. The majority that I've seen are at least fourteen and up.

I can almost assure you that the number of teens and adults that own a Wii is far greater than you may suspect right now.

I was actually specifically speaking more of kids who are twelve and under.

I don't know personally know most of these kids either. I just see them at the stores picking out which aisle they choose from. I observe most go to either the DS section or the Wii section. I'm unfortunately confined to stores very often.

I've actually asked most of my friends what consoles(s) they've purchased recently between this gen and last gen consoles. Most replied either saying they still owned last-gen consoles and haven't bought a new one yet or that they've purchased an Xbox 360. Very few of them own a Wii. And when I have mentioned to them that I've owned a Wii, they reply saying:

"Oh, you have a Wii? Is it any good?"

Of course, this is just between my peers and I. I can't say it'd be the same results with others. Everyone to whom I've spoken this about though is probably a cumulative total of about fifty or so people.

Good spotting.

I can't tell if that's sarcasm or not =P.

Most of those games have multiple difficulty settings, and on the highest levels can be pretty hard.

I agree. As I said though, most (besides the self-explanatory exceptions) of these games are comparable to TP's difficulty; which is hardly difficult at all.

Relax, Miyamoto doesn't have as much influence as you seem to think. That, and in case anyone hasn't noticed, a lot of Nintendo's franchises have had their most recent titles developed by second party companies. Miyamoto's ideas can only stretch so far.

Yes, but Miyamoto seems to strive to imprint his ideas into his designer's minds -- case in point being Aonuma.

I just see the crap Nintendo and second-party companies have been releasing as of lately as well as the "side projects" that third-party supporters seem to be dishing out as well (the Wii's lack of power seems to come into mind when I think about this).

From observing all of this, I then come to the conclusion that they've truly ditched difficulty and the concept of the hardcore gamer. Miyamoto's words just gives a more justifiable means to my conclusion. The man is sixty-something though. Eventually someone will take his place. He won't live forever. Which brings a sense of solace to mind.

You are right though. Nintendo hasn't been producing most of these games. What they should do is take the initiative in getting some second or third-party developers and push the envelope to get games that aren't so gimmicky and that apparently appeal to only the majority mass of the eccentric Japan population while neglected the US or Europe. They know they are neglecting us. They don't seem to care though. They obviously boast now more then ever about their "raving" success and prioritize Japan above all other countries.

I can't blame them though. That is where the Wii excels at. Can't say I'm all that happy for them either. I'm not Japanese. I'm tired of being neglected.

People, Miyamoto's farts smell like roses. There's no way his s*** stinks. He is infallible and the sooner you get that through your stupid heads, the quicker we can get on with our lives.

Seriously though, I am genuinely concerned, but not to a great degree. I'm thinking Galaxy looks about as difficult as Sunshine, or the very first time I played Mario 64. That's dang near perfect (and sometimes more than enough) difficulty in a Mario game, I'd say.The hard parts of those games weren't just blatantly difficult, they were difficult in that it required a certain mastery over the flawless way Mario controlled. And Galaxy seems to be overflowing with need for this precise control (with some variety of course), which is really what Mario has always been about.

All I'm worried about is the gradual dumbing down of "core" games on Nintendo's systems in general. Don't fret for Metroid, as long as that's in Retro's hands, I have faith it'll stay adequately hard.

I think, why people are really getting so scared about this, is Nintendo has been pushing these "casual" games pretty damn hard lately. Not to say this isn't smart on Nintendo's smart, it absolutely is, but it makes quotes like these hit harder than they normally would. It also makes people overlook what's really there because of what's in the spotlight. People have the right to worry, and are certainly justified in doing so when an influential man in the industry (within his circles anyway) talks like this, but in the end, this will be another quote that will be lost in the annals of the web, and remembered vaguely for whatever reason some years down the line.

Originally Posted by Hungry Gamer

Actually, use there is, deep in it all its a strategy. Their plan is to make games for a wider audience from toddlers to elders and casual to hardcore. With this larger number they will rack in more sales and possibly people who will become hardcore Nintendo fans. That is another reason why they used minimal resources, and made the Wii weaker than the other systems, they were not going to create hardcore games like the other systems, and they really didn't need to.

I have a much better question, if things continue, if games stay this was where you can beat it in a few days, would you quit playing Nintendo entirely? Would you quit right now?

I'd probably get an answer like "I still love Nintendo's francises."

Your complaining about difficulty, yet you still get there games, Nintendo rapped you around their finger. Even if you get another system, and put Nintendo backstage, guess what? You still have a Nintendo system, and you are still buying games!

Now, play an old game from the first system you had. Play one that you have played before, or even one that you never played before. Isn't it a little easy? Your older, smarter, and have better reflexes, games aren't getting just getting easier, your getting better!

Another example, play a challenging game of a franchize you never heard before. You can't beat a certain area, and you quit. You may determine the game before you even get to the good part. Thats why new franchizes have to be slightly easier, so that it has a chance to hook you.

Hardcore gamers are already hooked, and you will get a game just because it is Zelda or Mario. Casual Gamers have their games. Others have the opportunity to become one or the other. Just like cigerettes.

I think this sums up my opinion on the whole thing. Zelda games are getting sucky, but I'm too hooked to stop. Pokemon and Final Fantasy are good, but of course those are exp. level based games. I'll probably never quit Zelda.

I think I may get myself some better video and sound cards, and go for PC games as an alternative way to get my challenges.

Originally Posted by Dark Link

At least I know when and when not to suck up (in all due respect).

Who's sucking up? I'm saying it how it is. There would be nothing gained for "sucking up," so why bother to do so?

Originally Posted by Dark Link

Care to provide some sort of link to a quote? "Cause I've never heard of that. Ever.

No, I won't be your errand boy. Try doing a bit of your own research. It would be good to start with E3 Mario Galaxy Round Table or something of the sort.

Originally Posted by KeeSomething

That comment really adds to the discussion. Mission failed.

I've actually achieved quite a lot with that comment. Mission Accomplished.

Originally Posted by KeeSomething

Miyamoto's opinion on what is hard is equal to Twilight Princess. After all, didn't he say that game was challenging and only for veteran Zelda fans? Funny how it is considered the easiest Zelda games. Even if his comment about Galaxy was true, he is contradicting himself now so that statement is no longer relevant.

Ah, but you forget that difficulty depends on each and every person. Not just you. I'm a veteran Zelda fan and found Twilight Princess quite challenging. I don't find Miyamoto to be contradicting himself. I'm sure there would be others who'd think the same way. So therefore, hence, and because of, Miyamoto's statements on difficulty are completely relevant.

Originally Posted by KeeSomething

Not quite. Do you honestly think A Link to the Past is equally as challenging as The Wind Waker or Twilight Princess? Do you think Super Mario World is as easy as New Super Mario Bros.?

It depends on the person.

Originally Posted by Dark Link

Everyone here has a right to complain by the way. Who are you to deny us that right? Nobody, that's who.

I buy whatever games I wish to buy and have fun. Therefore, I have a right to complain about people complaining because they seem to be complaining about nothing to me. The same goes to Super Mario Sunshine, Mario Party games, Sonic the Hedgehog in 3-D, and "milking a franchise." Of course, people have their own opinions and have a right to share them, which is why I am voicing mine.

But know this. There will always be something to complain about. No matter how much Nintendo would meet your demands, you'd just find something else to complain about. I, for one, enjoy what I have most of the time. The only game in my collection that I'll ever complain about is Hexen for '64. I have traded the game with a friend for it and have regretted that ever since.

Originally Posted by Hungry Gamer

Super Mario 64 and Mario Sunshine both had the same concept of collect the items

Le-gasp! Oh no! We can't have that! And what about Halo, where the repetitive concept is to blow your enemies' brains out and save Earth? What about the Crash Bandicoot series where you collect wampa fruit? What about Grand Theft Auto and stealing cars? Save files? Levels? Bosses? Heroes and villains? Scenery? Soundtracks? Fun?By your logic, we can't have any of those concepts, can we? What's wrong with a second game where you "collect items" anyways?

Originally Posted by Dark Link

It can never actually hurt the game just to add a difficulty level. Miyamoto seems to think so otherwise though. . .

Maybe. Maybe not. I wouldn't care either way.

Originally Posted by Fish Head

The games aren't getting easier, you're getting unimaginative.

Sig'd.

Originally Posted by Old-Skool-Link

What if Nintendo purposely put all of their easiest games out first, so that they would rapidly grow their casual gamer base, then sell the more Hardcore games later?

Wouldn't care. If it's fun, I'll play it. End of story. I still love Wii Sports. Tennis is a blast, Golf is a hoot, Baseball is da bomb, and Bowling reminds me of how much I suck at the real game.

Originally Posted by Fish Head

And who are you to judge whether or not he's lost his touch? I haven't seen you create something that generated billions of dollars in profit.

Burn. You're on a roll.

Originally Posted by Mirren

A couple of years agom Nintendo appeared to be on their last legs, yet now, after appealing to the non-gamer with two different systems, they're the strongest they've been in probably over a decade.

A.K.A. The Nintendo Revolution. We should of known that there would be changes from the start. Wasn't "Revolution" big enough of a clue? I love hardcore games as well as casual games. That makes me an "All-Around Gamer." I enjoy many different types of games and don't embrace elitist "hard core" views. If everyone was an all-around gamer, gaming would be much more fun for all, methinks. The Wii is the perfect system for all around gamers such as myself.

Originally Posted by Dark Link

So it becomes justifiable to completely abandon hardcore gaming entirely?

Please explain to me how linking casual and hardcore gaming in order to find harmony in difficulty is ignoring hardcore completely?

Originally Posted by Dark Link

I'm not criticizing their success, but rather astonished by it. How can a system with such a weak library of games be so successful?

One word: Fun. It's a brand new discovery. You should really check it out some time.

Originally Posted by Dark Link

I guess kids are interested in anything these days. That, and "E" rated games are the only games most parents would lets their kids play. They look at the Wii gaming section and see nothing but rated "E" games. They've seen the commercials and publicity, they've heard some impressions from other parents and (as Kee would put it) their "grandmas." So, they obviously want to buy as system for their kids that they can enjoy, but also retain their oh so "innocently impressionable little minds" (as a parent would put it).

Here we are with the old "Kiddie" argument all over again. Rated E means for everyone. Everyone can enjoy it. It's not rated K or 8+. It's rated E for everyone. Why can't anyone understand such a simple concept?

Originally Posted by Dark Link

By the way, this is no way meant to be a rant. It's only what impression I get when I see the Wii and its success as well as actual observation.

Success is success, so quit yer whinin'. Obviously, Nintendo is doing something right. I could have complained similarly (which I have) about "graphics is everything" and superior hardware being cheap (or rather expensive) gimmicks that people flocked to support and forgetting to have fun. However, I believe Nintendo's success is a lot more positive than that.

Originally Posted by Fish Head

My name isn't Mr. Genius, it's Fish Head. Please do not try to insult me by calling me otherwise. Difficulty has nothing to do with how fun games are. If it did, we wouldn't have settings, and games would only be 'super-hard.' Question for you. Since when is opinion fact? I don't believe you are a census taker in any way, so making up 'facts' will not sway nor deter me. They will only make you look immature and arrogant.

Sorry if I was rude but it pisses me off when peiople think they're talking on behalf of everyone. Why do you think I'm asking for difficulty in the first place? Because I have FUN with it. Thereforth, Miyamoto's point of view is incorrect for me and the other people debating in this thread. To me, difficutly has great impact in the fun factor of a game.

Originally Posted by Fish Head

Once upon a time, before electronics were made, people created their own fun. Saying that you expect your fun to always be made for you makes you look immature and lazy. You don't HAVE to get upgrades, unless you want the game to be easier for you. Look who doesn't like difficulty NOW/

So does that mean that I have to like easy games only because I can make them harder myself by missing content? Nice logic you got there. If I'm paying 50$ for a game, then I'm expecting it to satisfy me in every single aspect, even more if it has a name like "Zelda" attached to it. Not to mention that challenge includes having secrets, upgrades and hidden items to find in a game. If I have to give up one aspect of the game in order to make it difficult, then that's a sign of a bad product. End of story.

Originally Posted by Fish Head

I'm a fanboy? I don't believe I am the one who is complaining about his video games not being fun anymore. At what point did I say he was a god? I merely said that he has no one to sell out to. And who are you to judge whether or not he's lost his touch? I haven't seen you create something that generated billions of dollars in profit.

Of course he has someone to sell to: the casual gamer that gives him 50$ for a mediocre game. He has gave up quality for money, and that's a very sad thing for a developer. And who am I to judge? A customer, that alone gives me the right to complain if I'm not getting a good product. If you don't appreciate your money, then too bad for you.


And Mirren, you're missing the point. Personally, I couldn't care less about all these half-assed minigame compilations, they can release those games if they want. I'm not going to buy them. What bothers me is the fact that they're tweaking products that are aimed for hardcore gamers, dumping down the characteristics that makes them great, in order to make them appealing to this new casual market that will probably never care anyway. When that happens, I raise the alarm. I'm all for a console that satisfies both types of audiences, that's what it has to do. But Nintendo ISN'T satisfying the hardcore players, otherwise you wouldn't find so many people complaining about this.

Originally Posted by Blizzaga

Ah, but you forget that difficulty depends on each and every person. Not just you. I'm a veteran Zelda fan and found Twilight Princess quite challenging. I don't find Miyamoto to be contradicting himself. I'm sure there would be others who'd think the same way. So therefore, hence, and because of, Miyamoto's statements on difficulty are completely relevant.

I suppose there are also people who found The Wind Waker difficult, but that doesn't change the fact that major complaints against both games is the lack of difficulty.

Originally Posted by Mirren

OoT had...difficulty?

*snicker*

I share your laughter. Ocarina of Time was really the first Zelda game to completely lack difficulty, but compared to the latest Zeldas, it is rather challenging.

Seriously, anyone who has great disdain for a particular Zelda game because of a lack of difficulty shouldn't like the entire series at all. Outside of AoL, which was just unfair most of the time, Zelda's never been hard. Challenge isn't what's made the series so great, it's the fantastic creativity that has.

Zelda, excluding the NES games, was never hard, but they did require a decent ammount of skill and intelligence. I'd say games like A Link to the Past, Link's Awakening, Majora's Mask, and the Oracle games have moderate difficulty. But things have gotten insultingly easy now, and that is because Nintendo is trying to get casual gamers to play Zelda. Enemies have gotten stupider, and the games have become more linear constantly guiding you where to go. The Minish Cap, Twilight Princess, and The Wind Waker are so dumbed-down compared to past Zeldas, and that is a cop out to the veteran fans.

Originally posted by Dark Link
I hate to keep repeating myself (I just know I'm going to get some sort of sassy comment from stating that), but judging by this article, I'd say it's what Miyamoto wants.

Doesn't mean he's going to get it every time.

The Gamecube only had about five single-platform M rated games and around thirty-five M rated games total. Nintendo themselves only made one rated M game and seven rated T games.

That would/could definitely give an impression that the GC is not necessarily meant for "older" games, and is mostly geared toward kids.

And if third parties had been there, we would've had more T and M rated games, thus lessening that kiddy image.

On their own, Nintendo's franchises aren't going to do a whole lot, that's my point.

I can't tell if that's sarcasm or not =P.

I generally save sarcasm for when I want to mock someone without going so far that I could get a warning. This is not one of those cases.

I just see the crap Nintendo and second-party companies have been releasing as of lately as well as the "side projects" that third-party supporters seem to be dishing out as well (the Wii's lack of power seems to come into mind when I think about this).

"Lately" will be over soon. In about a week and a half, we'll get Prime 3, and the start of an avalanche of notable titles from Nintendo and third parties.

From observing all of this, I then come to the conclusion that they've truly ditched difficulty and the concept of the hardcore gamer. Miyamoto's words just gives a more justifiable means to my conclusion. The man is sixty-something though. Eventually someone will take his place. He won't live forever. Which brings a sense of solace to mind.

As long as the majority of their franchises have multiple difficulty settings, will always remain hard (Fire Emblem, Advance Wars, F-Zero) or they're just not meant to be very difficulty (Zelda, Animal Crossing) I honestly think you're worrying far too much.

Originally posted by KratosAurion
What bothers me is the fact that they're tweaking products that are aimed for hardcore gamers, dumping down the characteristics that makes them great, in order to make them appealing to this new casual market that will probably never care anyway.

Give me some examples, in that case. I see everyone *****ing about how big bad Nintendo is dumbing down their favorite franchises, but nobody ever actually mentions the franchises.

But Nintendo ISN'T satisfying the hardcore players, otherwise you wouldn't find so many people complaining about this.

Or, maybe you guys are just being impatient and fail to realize that they have five games for the core audience to be released in a four month time span, just for Wii.

And don't give me any crap about Wii's library this year, every console's first year sucks and that'll never change.

Originally posted by KeeSomething
Zelda, excluding the NES games, was never hard, but they did require a decent ammount of skill and intelligence. I'd say games like A Link to the Past, Link's Awakening, Majora's Mask, and the Oracle games have moderate difficulty. But things have gotten insultingly easy now, and that is because Nintendo is trying to get casual gamers to play Zelda. Enemies have gotten stupider, and the games have become more linear constantly guiding you where to go.

Ack, non-linearity isn't challenging, it's just annoying. Having to look around every nook and cranny of a fairly large overworld without any form of guidance or any idea of what you're looking for (all the while doing no real tasks) isn't a fair challenge in the least, it's tedious.

As for the recent games, I would agree that Wind Waker and Minish Cap are two of the easier entries into the series, but I actually enjoyed them a lot more than I did something like ALttP or LA. More inventive bosses, much more variety in the main campaigns, having an actual idea of what you're supposed to do next, I liked that a lot better.

And to be honest, I found TP to be one of the harder games, only behind ALttP, AoL and MM. But then again, the challenge I had in MM wasn't the puzzles or enemies, but that aggravating time system. As for AoL, that game isn't fair in the least.

there are two picecs of good news( sory I don't know how to spell picecs) brawl if its like meele has a dificulty seting and plus its multi play and super mario galaxy is siposed to be as hard as god of war says ing

A point that everyone seems to be missing is that Nintendo is a business, now for those of you who don't now how businesses work, let me explain.

The goal of a business is to make money in exchange for a product that they make. In Nintendo's case, they produce video games (although, that's not how they started.) They start small time, promoting a product and hoping to find a buying group. With such a small group, most complaints are easily addressed and solved. Eventually this buying group becomes regular buyers, and form a fanbase. As more things are produced, the fanbase will continue buying. Once profits have reached a certain level, the business plans to expand their fanbase by adding a new gimmick to their products. When this happens, more customers are attracted, and eventually added to the fanbase. Complaints are still fairly easy to address, but there are now more of the, and they are starting to conflict.

Fast forward 15 maybe 20 years.

The business is booming. They are now a corporation. They have branched out in many ways with their product. It now appeals to many people all over the world. That of course is not enough. They must have everyone on the earth in their fanbase in order for them to reach success. Seeing that they may have reached their limits with gimmicks and fanbase attraction, they began to change themselves to fit the group they are trying to attract. They don't change completely, but their advertising and marketing strategies do. With such a large and conflicting fanbase, this sudden change causes terrible amounts of unrest. The business realizes this issue, but makes no deliberate attempt to fix it. The fanbase has too many conflicting opinions now to properly be solved, so they seek the easiest and most profitable solution. Leave the ones who have been fans for so long, and seek out the new and inexperienced. The older group can fend for themselves.

This is the goal of business.
Just like the goal of the male is to impregnate every female in existence,
and the goal of the female is to reproduce as many times as possible.
(That is not in anyway an offensive statement. That is the ongoing continuance of the species, and what animals are designed to do.)

Sure it's a soulless view point, but we're dealing with business, and that's the way it works.

Miyamoto isn't selling out, he's making money, which is what every business does.

Continue to blame everything on Miyamoto or Aunouma, just like America continues to blame everything on Bush. One day you will realize that the human race finds scapegoats, and blames all possible problems on them.

Originally Posted by KeeSomething

I suppose there are also people who found The Wind Waker difficult, but that doesn't change the fact that major complaints against both games is the lack of difficulty.

Ah, but is that a fact? I personally found Wind Waker challenging and fun. But what if Nintendo were to change the difficulties? Then people would find something else to complain about. Next it would be the graphics, then the way Link walks, and animal abuse issues with being able to harm the pigs. The sooner we can get through our thick heads that no one is perfect is the sooner that we can actually sit down and enjoy what's in front of us. You can't satisfy every single person with just one game. So a sound strategy to combat that is variety. In other words, if you don't like that game, don't buy it. Find something else that would fit your apetite.

So I just want to ask a random question Mirren; between me Kee Something, Dark Link, and me who has debate this "casual-gamer" vs. "hardcore gamer" thing best?

This thread is very similar to this one