Are there any Mario fans left? (and a lot of other things)

The Mario franchise receives an immense amount of criticism these days. From people who feel they've "out-grown" Mario, to people who have hated him from the beginning, to those who feel his games don't have a good storyline and are for babies, Mario has lost a lot of fans the last few years (from what I've observed), and now many people feel the series that made Nintendo is now holding them back.

This being a Zelda site, I've been surprised by the number of people who adore Zelda but despise Mario. They are both series created by the legendary Shigeru Miyamoto. They're more similar than people realize. They share a lot of features. Both thrive on simple, pick up and play gameplay mixed with a surprising amount of depth. Finding secret areas and interacting with the environment is integral to both. Both feature vibrant, colorful, whimsical worlds and characters. Neither is realistic (as in, imitating the real world), but both create very believable worlds of their own. Yet one is branded kiddy. Why?

Some people say that Zelda places a bigger emphasis on the storyline. This is true, but only to an extent. Storyline shouldn't even be that important in a video game. I'm realizing this more and more. Movies and books are passive experiences. If those mediums have a bad, nonsensical story, then they're crap. But video games are different. Video games are about interactivity. Zelda (and Mario, but you already know this) is not where it is today in anyway due to it's storyline. The only reason Nintendo bothers with a story at all is to give you a reason (honestly is having fun not reason enough?) to playthrough their game. Many games have better stories than Zelda, for Nintendo are not masters of story-telling, but few (none) are more enjoyable.

Others might prefer Zelda because it's more mature. If this is you, sell your Nintendo system and buy an Xbox. Have fun!

Now, I will admit, I have been ever so slightly disappointed with the Mario franchise during the Gamecube era. This has been mostly due to the lack of true platformers and the over abundance of spin-offs. Gamecube has seen the realease of Luigi's Mansion, Super Smash Bros, Mario Kart, Mario Party 4, 5, 6, Mario Golf, Mario Tennis, Mario Baseball, Mario Strikers, Mario DDR, and I'm sure I forgot a few. Throw in the embarassement of Mario's appearance in NBA Street and SSX 4, and I can see where people may begin to resent him.

However, and I know it's hard to ignore, these titles don't hurt you if you don't buy them. In fact, stop buying them! They're sucking away at Nintendo's resources that could be devoted to a true Mario platformer. See, Nintendo can release as many Mario spinoffs as they want, as long as I still get my Mario platformers. I find the lack of true Mario games MORE disappointing than the numerous fake Mario games. Anybody with half a brain should share this opinion.

In defense of Nintendo, keep in mind that they are a company. They want to make money. Apparently, continuing to churn out spinoffs is helping them to achieve this goal. Honestly, I'm not sure how. I have found the last few Mario spinoffs very unappealing, and I'm surprised they're still selling well. Anyway, other than making money, the main reason they continue to crank them out is because they are cheap, low budget titles that sell well. Nintendo has awful third party support. Nintendo needs to release as many games as they can to survive in this era (which is why their games have seen a drop in quality). Their release list is sparse as it is. I truly believe that Nintendo is an exception to the rule that competition creates better products. If Nintendo's future in the video game industry was secure, they could afford to devote the time and resources necessary to create amazing games. Nintendo doesn't have the time anymore to put the utmost care in their products (look at all the negative feed back the Twilight Princess delay caused+look at how dismal their holiday lineup is--Mario spinoffs are the easiest way to fill the void).

But enough about that. Let's talk about Mario!



Super Mario Brothers. The game that started it all. One of the most revolutionary games of all time. One of the only playable games left on NES. Seriously, it is far superior to, and has aged much better than any other game (besides SMB3 of course) on the system, including Zelda. It probably is my least favorite 2D Mario game, but for the NES, it was simply brilliant.



This was the oddball of the 2D Marios. It played noticeably different from the others. That is because it was originally not intended to be a Mario game! See, the Nintendo of today was not all that different from the one back in the eighties. They were assigning franchises to games they didn't belong in even back then! One interesting feature was the ability to choose your character (Mario, Luigi, Toad, Peach) every level. The enemies, environments, and items, really everything in general, was vastly different that other Mario games. As a spinoff of sorts, I really enjoyed Super Mario 2, even though it doesn't hold a candle to other Mario games.



SMB3. Undeniably the best game on NES. The game oozed with creative genius and fun ideas. You could become Super Mario, Fire Mario, a Raccoon, a Frog, a hammer thrower(?), among other things. There were many hidden secrets, such as hidden whistles that allowed you to play SMB3 out of order. You could fly, and it actually controlled well. The level design was flawless. The graphics were top notch. The music was catchy. The difficulty was high, but fair. Everything about the game was beautiful. To my knowledge it sold 12 million copies and was the best selling game ever for some time. It is a legitimate contender for best game ever, as is it's sister . . .



Super Mario World. This is a game that I've been replaying recently, and I can't get enough of it. While SMB3 was released before I was born and was more a game of a different time, Super Mario World hit me in stride. It was the only game that I played growing up. It is quite similar to SMB3 (debating which is better is a great topic and is typically split down the middle), but I preferred the physics (the way the game feels) better in SMW. Yoshi made his debut in SMW.

Anyway, when I was younger, I didn't appreciate the game's brilliant hidden depth. Running or flying across any given level flows so naturally and feels so rythmic because of the superior level design. This superior level design is a trademark of the the Mario franchise and will never be matched by imitators. The game's control is possibly the best in any game ever. Like most Nintendo games, SMW boasted intangible qualities that separate their games from the rest of the pack. Trying to explain these qualities is impossible (and many of you wouldn't agree any)way, but I notice them, they rub me off of me the right way, and I appreciate them.



I didn't have the privilege of playing Yoshi's Island when it was originally released back in 1995. Like all of the 2D Mario side scrollers, the gameplay was the same, yet completely different. None of them felt rehashed or lacking in the inspiration department. Unlike today, all of them did the series justice.

Yoshi's Island had phenominal, vibrant graphics for the SNES. Some of the best on the system. These visuals led to tropical environments that were highly unrealistic yet extremely believable. Throwing eggs was a huge gameplay innovation, as was Yoshi's flutter kick. YI had a bigger emphasis on exploration than previous Mario sidescrollers. The large levels chock full of secrets, and the removal of the timer ensured this. The music, though undeniably kiddy in nature, had a tendency to make me feel happy and sad at the same time. It's difficult to describe. All in all, a relaxing game that puts those who play it into a good mood, and a worthy installment in the Mario franchise.



Super Mario 64 is obviously one of the most revolutionary games in gaming. It was almost as influential as the original Mario back in 1986. Mario led the video game world into the third dimension when it released back for N64 back in 1996. Never before, for me personally, had a game had such a wow factor. Simply moving around in 3D amazed me. Over time, it became apparent that Super Mario 64 was a rather flawed game. It is overrated by many today. Unlike OoT for example, it has not aged gracefully. However, no one can deny it's influence on the video game world. Food for thought: the original Mario revolutionized video games, Mario 64 revolutionized video games . . . will Mario's next game do it all again?



This one's more difficult. When it first came out, many blindly praised Super Mario Sunshine. As time passed, it became apparent that it just wasn't what it was cracked up to be. People were expecting some kind of miracle/revolution akin to what Mario 64 achieved six years earlier. What they got was more of an evolution.

I will be the first to say that Super Maro Sunshine is a better game than Mario 64. I don't regret purchasing it and I had a great time with it. Was it underwhelming? Yes. Was it disappointing? Maybe. Does it still own every other wannabe platformer on the market? A resounding yes!

You see, Mario Sunshine has gone from being overrated, to very, very underrated. Mario Sunshine is an underrated game. Because it wasn't revolutionary, people cast it away as a failure. I'll admit it had some silly flaws such as the piss poor textures (N64 esque), fruity name, fruity character design (Piantas . . . ugh, I'd expect better from Nintendo), and an overuse of tropical environments. However, the game played smooth, the graphical effects were beautiful, the fun factor soared (something that can't be said about a certain other cel-shaded Nintendo sequel), and FLUDD allowed for better control in a 3D environment. Remember all of those times in Mario 64 when you would miss a jump due to the right due to a poor camera angle? FLUDD fixed that. It allowed Sunshine to incorporate much more advanced platforming.

What about the future of Mario? What will next-gen Mario play like? It is my opinion that it is crucial that Nintnendo find a new control system that suits a 3D Mario and allows it to evolve. I think that the transition to 3D hurt Mario big time. I imagine that 3D Mario games take a lot more effort and planning to make, so Nintendo can no longer crank out platformers like they used to (only 2 in the last 10 years). I want more Mario platforming goodness than that!

So what are the hurdles of Mario 3D gameplay?

-Enemies become irrelevent. You can just move around them.
-Jumping is imprecise.
-You can't see behind you.
-Camera issues.
-Powerups can't work the same.
-Linear level design becomes almost impossible. Notice how the idea of getting to the end of the level has been dropped in 3D Mario's? It just doesn't work in 3D. Being able to move left and right ruins everything.
-The gameplay is completely different, and while there are more possibilities, there are more hurdles, and it is ultimately much less likely to be fun.

There are so many other factors that go into this as well. In all honesty, I never see Mario regaining his former quality in a 3D game. Same with Metroid. 3D is incredibly overrated. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Of course, I doubt a 2D game would be received very well at this time, so Nintendo has no choice. This is just another example of how Sony, Microsoft, and the mainstream consumer are ruining video games. At least I will be able to conveniently enjoy my classics on Revolution.

I hope Nintendo proves me wrong. I hope they truly revolutionize 3D gameplay with Mario on the Revolution. Maybe they will, maybe they won't.

Discuss anything Mario in this thread.



P.S. Mario>Zelda just by a smidgen. That should stir up some trouble!

I like Mario from the nes, snes, and mario 64. I dont like the rest of the CRAP like mario kart double dash, I was a huge fan of mario kart before they ruined that franchise with that game. I am looking foreward to the one for ds though, it looks like it controls kinda like a mix between the snes one(my favorite) and the 64 one. I really hope mario for the revolution goes back to the original mario ideas WITHOUT FLOOD(that thing was the dumbest thing ive seen in any mario game).

Mario rocks. Simple as that. But, recently, the series has been declining.

Originally Posted by Shiek 84

Now, I will admit, I have been ever so slightly disappointed with the Mario franchise during the Gamecube era. This has been mostly due to the lack of true platformers and the over abundance of spin-offs. Gamecube has seen the realease of Luigi's Mansion, Super Smash Bros, Mario Kart, Mario Party 4, 5, 6, Mario Golf, Mario Tennis, Mario Baseball, Mario Strikers, Mario DDR, and I'm sure I forgot a few. Throw in the embarassement of Mario's appearance in NBA Street and SSX 4, and I can see where people may begin to resent him.

That pretty much sums it up. I don't hate the franchise, mind you, I'm just waiting for a new, true Mario game to come out. Another excellent platformer, a la Super Mario 64. I did enjoy Sunshine, though, despite so many people saying they hated it.

I kind of like the fact that the series has taken a detour to spin-offs, actually. Opened me up to Metroid, which I had never played in the past, and now I'm hooked.

I still find Mario to be the greatest video game franchise ever created. It simply is. It's innovative, it's original, interesting, it's unique. It's a one of a kind series that cannot be duplicated, it's a series that has no limit whatsoever. It is better than Zelda.

I don't mind this series of parodies, I very much like it. I would be bored out of my mind if that's all we'd get from Mario like Zelda, adventure after adventure after adventure. The games he's come out with are fun, and they're especially good when you've got friends to play with. And hey, once a mainstream title comes out, I'm sure it's gonna have a huge impact

Originally Posted by Goron Hero

I like Mario from the nes, snes, and mario 64. I dont like the rest of the CRAP like mario kart double dash

Mario Kart Double Dash is far from crap. The Mario Kart series is one of the few spinoffs I deem acceptable (along with Tennis/Golf, RPG). Comparing Double Dash to MK64 heavily favors Double Dash. The gameplay is much better. Don't believe me? Go back and play MK64. I can guarantee it isn't as good as you remember. It's another one of those games that has not aged well. The two kart concept was innovative and offered new gameplay mechanics without going over the top. MK is the best offline multiplayer experience on Gamecube (except for maybe SSBM), and possibly any console. The only catogory I give an edge to MK64 is in levels. The levels in Double Dash were sort of bland for some reason or another.

WITHOUT FLOOD

FLUDD was fine. Yes, it was rather childish and sort of annoying, but it offered interesting gameplay. There are a number of valid complaints against SMS, but I don't think that's one of them.

Aside from the sports variants (Exnay Mario Cart), the series is still one of my favorites.

As with others, I love Mario. I just hate the constant spinoffs and lack of core titles.

I'd also agree that Double Dash does exemplify everything that's gone wrong with the series right now: It's better in some ways, but only incrementally so, in the same way each subsequent Madden game is better. In other respects its far worse than the previous Mario Kart games, being even less about racing and more about who hits gets the best items, with another batch of items every ten yards.

Some of Nintendo's best-selling games of this past generation were the Mario rehashes for the GBA. People crave the core Mario franchise, and Nintendo needs to start injecting new classics into the market before it exhausts what it has. Astonishing to think that we're still waiting for a true sequel to Mario 64 and it's already been ported to a portable.

One thing I didn't talk very much about was the music in the franchise. No other video game music is so effective at complementing the game. Obviously, Mario's simplistic tunes can't hold a candle to the epic tracks seen in games such as Final Fantasy, but Mario music is always memorable and always pleasing. Each of the main 2D Mario games introduced an overworld song that played virtually every level, and yet, I have not been annoyed by them once. SMW in particular, almost every song was based on the same theme, but it fit beautifully.

SMB

SMB 2

SMB3

SMW

SMW2

Of course these are only the main overworld themes. They are the most famous, but there is plenty of other good music as well.

Yes, a true sequel to Mario 64 is yet to be seen. It is rather annoying to see Nintendo concentrate on spinoffs and not the core franchise itself, but it's forgivable since they're all decently entertaining.

And people critisize Square-Enix for creating a lot of FFVIII spinoffs.

I'm not sure what to think of Mario. I grew up enjoying his antics and adored traversing the huge and vibrant levels of the legendary Mario 64. My childish mindset didn't quite connect with the elder predecessors but yeah, I've noticed how such a rythmic pattern and excellent play is integrated into such a simple interface system(I've heard it takes a week to build a game of its natures now-- less if you rip the sprites). Theres' no really wonder when Mario is the flagship series of Nintendo. But Dryth hit the mark pretty well. The core games are too far in between for us to enjoy now and lately, I feel irritated of the constant spin offs they throw at me instead of the actual Mario platformers that we had grown so much to enjoy. Mario Sunshine was a mixed bag-- maybe it was decent, but it just didn't feel very "Mario" in my opinion. Classic items were non-exsistant and all we received was FLUDD. All the skills it allowed us to do...I felt it something of a novelty. I just hope the Mario Revolution(s) will return to its old roots(need to rephrase that, Mario 64), but I know experimental Nintendo can get. Sometimes I think this is why people are apperciating it less-- you have to task risks to receive benefits at times, but often, these are for not better, but moreso worse. Maybe we just take a break? But I must say, Twilight Princess does look kickass at the moment. Perhaps they should do that, rather than introducing a new template, add concepts that shift the gameplay but well...just not so experminemtal. Majora's Mask had a fine line between that, I would say.

I will always be a big fan of the mario franchise for its enjoyable and nostalgic gameplay. But im not so blind as to think that mario sunshine was a brilliant game. It was enjoyable at times, but it was a real backward step for the franchise after all mario64 had accomplised.

The story for me was lacking depth and spread far too thinly, and the FLUDD water device - though interesting - felt very gimmicky. Its almost as if nintendo thought they could make a really revolutionary game if they just stuck a funny little gadget on mario's back - if only it was that easy. It doesnt matter though, because I'll always remember the mario franchise for the good games and not the bad ones...

Originally Posted by Shiek 84

Of course, I doubt a 2D game would be received very well at this time, so Nintendo has no choice. This is just another example of how Sony, Microsoft, and the mainstream consumer are ruining video games. At least I will be able to conveniently enjoy my classics on Revolution.

Actually i believe Sony/Microsoft have trumped Nintendo at their own game in recent times. Games like Blinx, eyetoy, Halo and many others have showed more innovative qualities than anything on gamecube (with the notable exception of Metroid Prime). Many people i guess feel bitter that nintendo are no-longer leading the pack anymore and thats why they rag on the competition. Give credit where credits due guys, Sony/Microsoft have great games on their platforms and are entitled to their success.

Originally Posted by Shiek 84

Mario Kart Double Dash is far from crap. The Mario Kart series is one of the few spinoffs I deem acceptable (along with Tennis/Golf, RPG). Comparing Double Dash to MK64 heavily favors Double Dash. The gameplay is much better. Don't believe me? Go back and play MK64. I can guarantee it isn't as good as you remember. It's another one of those games that has not aged well. The two kart concept was innovative and offered new gameplay mechanics without going over the top. MK is the best offline multiplayer experience on Gamecube (except for maybe SSBM), and possibly any console. The only catogory I give an edge to MK64 is in levels. The levels in Double Dash were sort of bland for some reason or another.

Maybe I should have said Mario Kart Double Dash was crap compared to Mario Kart for the snes. I still play Mario Kart for Snes and it is still 100 times better than double dash. The thing I liked about Mario Kart for snes was the corners. You either had to slow down or power slide on most of them to get around them without going off the track but in double dash you dont need to slow down or powerslide, you could just keep holding down the gas and go right around the corner and it takes no skill. Even MK64 was inferior to the original. I agree the gameplay isnt as good as Double Dash but the tracks and multiplayer were better.

I really dont agree with you about how "MK is the best offline multiplayer experience on Gamecube (except for maybe SSBM), and possibly any console." You should really play some other multiplayer games. I think that MP2 Echos has better multiplayer than MK: DD. Xbox has some really good multiplayer games as well, theres Halo, Halo 2, Ghost Recon 2, Burnout 3, and others (Im too lazy to name them all).

By the way, has anyone checked out The New Super Mario Bros. for ds. That game looks friggin awesome. If you havent check that out watch a video on it, the screenshots wont make you as interested in it.

Yeah, im a Mario fan still. I like most of the games that Mario is in except some of the sport games (e.g. Mario Tennis). Best Mario game is Super Mario Brothers on the NES, worst is Mario Kart Double Dash. Double Dash has good tracks, and the idea of using 2 characters per kart is great but when u play on Single Player, the computer controlled karts seem to cheat a lot, plus there is no practice mode like in Mario Kart 64 where u could drive round on your own and practice the courses.

Originally Posted by Shiek 84

Mario>Zelda just by a smidgen

How dare you!

Well, I suppose I'm still a fan of Mario, but I've kind-of gone off its genre. Meaning I favour Zelda's genre much more, thats why I don't agree with your little crocodile thing there. Just my opinion.

But lately the Mario series is getting a little out of hand, Nintendo keep thinking that Mario is 'Everyones favourite character!' and that they will easily by a game as long as its got Mario in it. I mean, Nintendo seem to be slacking off, there not putting as much effort into it. And spinn-off's with no great idea's. I really am quite sick of Mario - but I'm still a fan because of his incredibely detailed world and characters. It really has some great characters does the Mario series. Plus hes still owns the crown of King of platformers.

Hopefully when Mario 128 finnaly comes out, Mario will once again proove why he's so famous. He would get no praise, and be very unknown to the world if he had crap games. But he always put's that Mario magic into genres that don't seem to have much potential. Such as comical kart racing. So thats why I'm still a fan. But stop with the tacky spin-of's Nintendo!

Of course I'm still a Mario fan! I don't care what people say, Mario games are still games of quality. Sunshine may not have been as good as 64, but it was still the best platformer on any 128bit console. Also, let's not forget Double Dash and Paper Mario 2, two more GC Mario games that rocked.
I'll admit, Mario on the GC has been sligtly worse than previous consoles but he's still a long way from being bad. Especially, with the likes of Mario Kart DS, New Super Mario Bros., Mario and Luigi 2 and the unveiling on the Rev Mario on the way.
If you think Mario's bad, just stop and remember tired old franchises like Crash and Spyro, then maybe you'll realize how good Mario games really are.