Kingdom Hearts 3D: Dream Drop Distance

Originally Posted by silver arrow

True, we don't know that detail, but it's not really needed. If I recall, they pretty much just say that Roxas somehow ended up with the memories sometime after Sora went to sleep.

Not actually.

Naminé: Yes... You and Sora are connected. And...in order for Sora to become completely whole again... He needs you.

Roxas: Me? What for?

Naminé: You hold half of what he is... He needs you, Roxas.

This doesn't tell you anything about why Sora needs Roxas to wake up, as obviously until Sora went to Castle Oblivion he had no problem existing and keeping his memories despite Roxas being "half of what he is." So without the context of "Roxas absorbed his memories of Kairi," the explanation given in Kingdom Hearts II is either 1) inaccurate; or 2) impossible to trace*.

*Since, again, there's a specific event that causes Roxas's existence to be problematic for Sora's awakening - Xion's introduction - which was never hinted at in KHII. (Although you could perhaps see the "memory thief" subplot in the digital Twilight Town as a sort of mirror.)

Originally Posted by Lex

This doesn't tell you anything about why Sora needs Roxas to wake up, as obviously until Sora went to Castle Oblivion he had no problem existing and keeping his memories despite Roxas being "half of what he is." So without the context of "Roxas absorbed his memories of Kairi," the explanation given in Kingdom Hearts II is either 1) inaccurate; or 2) impossible to trace*.

*Since, again, there's a specific event that causes Roxas's existence to be problematic for Sora's awakening - Xion's introduction - which was never hinted at in KHII. (Although you could perhaps see the "memory thief" subplot in the digital Twilight Town as a sort of mirror.)

The process of completing the repairs of Sora's memories required Roxas. He can't wake up until the repairs are complete. Sora was able to exist with damaged memories before that. He was not keeping his memories in Castle Oblivion. The whole story has him constantly losing memories. Particularly his memories of Kairi are being replaced with memories of Namine.

The implication in KHII is that sometime during CoM or while Sora was asleep is when Roxas started absorbing the memories. Or in the case of KHII, he started absorbing the part of Sora that he needed to wake up. Either way, we knew that Roxas was a part of Sora and needed to merge with him to make him whole and that this was necessary for Sora to wake up.

Oh jee bus we need another thread to determine whether or not the KH side-games are necessary.

Originally Posted by jellotime91

Oh jee bus we need another thread to determine whether or not the KH side-games are necessary.

Pfft, no we don't :p


The story could have been completed on consoles without side games, but since the story kept evolving as time went on, the side-games are all canonical and necessary for the story.

Basically, originally they might not have been necessary, but they are now. Luckily 3D will have a memoir thing where you can read the summaries of all the other games in case you haven't played them, so that should be good.

Oh man, I knew there was a reason I bought a 3DS.

For once, I'm glad for a handheld, since I don't have any of the newer consoles (the newest we have is a Wii XD). Still, I want KHIII so bad, but this will hopefully tide me over when it comes out. Just (hopefully) a couple more months! :3

Originally Posted by Cheerilee

Oh man, I knew there was a reason I bought a 3DS.

For once, I'm glad for a handheld, since I don't have any of the newer consoles (the newest we have is a Wii XD). Still, I want KHIII so bad, but this will hopefully tide me over when it comes out. Just (hopefully) a couple more months! :3

I think it's coming out during European summer. There was a release date for Europe of 27th July for a few hours, but it got replaced with "Summer 2012" pretty quick.

Originally Posted by silver arrow

Spoiler:  

The process of completing the repairs of Sora's memories required Roxas. He can't wake up until the repairs are complete. Sora was able to exist with damaged memories before that. He was not keeping his memories in Castle Oblivion. The whole story has him constantly losing memories. Particularly his memories of Kairi are being replaced with memories of Namine.

The implication in KHII is that sometime during CoM or while Sora was asleep is when Roxas started absorbing the memories. Or in the case of KHII, he started absorbing the part of Sora that he needed to wake up. Either way, we knew that Roxas was a part of Sora and needed to merge with him to make him whole and that this was necessary for Sora to wake up.

Having browsed the entire script of KHII, I can say with some certainty that there's never really an explanation for why Sora needs Roxas to regain his memories. The closest we get is the "he is half of you" thing, but that doesn't explain why Namine can't put the memories she pulled apart back together. Roxas had nothing to do (as far as we know) with the events of CoM, except insofar as the memories of Twilight Town are concerned.

Again, Sora's memory appears to have been just fine until he wandered into Castle Oblivion, and within KHII there's no context for what happened to Sora's memories except that Namine took them apart. The explanation in Days - that Roxas has been infused with an essential part of Sora's memories - is impossible to glean from evidence in KHII alone; KHII just takes for granted that Sora needed Roxas for some reason.

I know it's not really KH 3D related but this is the de facto KH thread right now and it's not really worth making another one.

If BBS volume 2 is real do you think they should put it on the Vita or the 3DS? Personally I'd prefer if they kept it on the 3DS.

Originally Posted by Kostya

I know it's not really KH 3D related but this is the de facto KH thread right now and it's not really worth making another one.

If BBS volume 2 is real do you think they should put it on the Vita or the 3DS? Personally I'd prefer if they kept it on the 3DS.

There will definitely be a Kingdom Hearts game on the Vita. If there is indeed a sequel to BBS, I am willing to bet it will be on the Vita. Typically, sequels are on the same system or the system's successor. Game companies generally try to be inclusive of the people who played the original title.

Originally Posted by Lex

Having browsed the entire script of KHII, I can say with some certainty that there's never really an explanation for why Sora needs Roxas to regain his memories. The closest we get is the "he is half of you" thing, but that doesn't explain why Namine can't put the memories she pulled apart back together. Roxas had nothing to do (as far as we know) with the events of CoM, except insofar as the memories of Twilight Town are concerned.

Again, Sora's memory appears to have been just fine until he wandered into Castle Oblivion, and within KHII there's no context for what happened to Sora's memories except that Namine took them apart. The explanation in Days - that Roxas has been infused with an essential part of Sora's memories - is impossible to glean from evidence in KHII alone; KHII just takes for granted that Sora needed Roxas for some reason.

We know that Roxas is his nobody and that it's unnatural for a nobody and the original to exist at once. We know that Namine can't complete healing Sora's memories without Roxas. We can deduce that Roxas has some of Sora's memories because the game shows us that he does. He got these memories after Sora's got messed up. We can then deduce that Roxas is absorbing them.

Everybody knew this before Days came out so it obviously isn't needed to understand that part.

Originally Posted by silver arrow

We know that Roxas is his nobody and that it's unnatural for a nobody and the original to exist at once. We know that Namine can't complete healing Sora's memories without Roxas. We can deduce that Roxas has some of Sora's memories because the game shows us that he does. He got these memories after Sora's got messed up. We can then deduce that Roxas is absorbing them.

Actually, since Nobodies have memories from the time they were real people, that Roxas has Sora's memories isn't really all that surprising. We don't know (from KHII) that Roxas actually didn't have any of Sora's memories when he was first born - that plot point wasn't introduced until Days. And any forgetting going on in KHII on the part of Roxas is implied to have been the result of him being digitized; there's no real indication that he didn't have any of Sora's memories prior to Sora falling asleep (since we only see scant glimpses of him before KHII outside of Days).

Again, all we know is that Roxas's existence is a roadblock to Sora's awakening. We don't know why.

What Days explains is that Roxas's existence interferes with Sora's restoration because he has absorbed the memories of Kairi that were transferred into Xion, and these memories are too essential to leave out. But anything about Roxas holding the key memories that Sora needs to wake up (and specifically about these memories being missing because they exist in him) was left out of KHII. We need Days to tell us why Namine - who was the one who took these memories away from Sora in the first place - can't put them back.

EDIT: Also, personally I think they should just re-release KHI, Re:Com, and KHII on the 3DS, given that it's already the system with compatibility with the most games out of the series. (I'd ask for BBS also, but that's probably asking too much.) Of course, they'll probably just wind up on the Vita or home console platforms as downloadable titles (the latter would be entirely acceptable, of course, especially if it was a multi-platform distribution), but hey, I can dream, can't I?

Originally Posted by Lex

Actually, since Nobodies have memories from the time they were real people, that Roxas has Sora's memories isn't really all that surprising. We don't know (from KHII) that Roxas actually didn't have any of Sora's memories when he was first born - that plot point wasn't introduced until Days. And any forgetting going on in KHII on the part of Roxas is implied to have been the result of him being digitized; there's no real indication that he didn't have any of Sora's memories prior to Sora falling asleep (since we only see scant glimpses of him before KHII outside of Days).

There's no implication that he did have memories either. Nobodies remember their past lives. This is because the memories of the original carry over. KHII implies that the memories can only exist in one vessel at a time. This is why Roxas has messed up memories. Because of the unnatural state of the nobody and original existing at once. Roxas and Sora were fighting over the memories subconsciously.

It's not concisely spelled out for you, but is is heavily implied. Enough so that it was considered common knowledge years before Days came out. Days spells it out for us, but KHII definitely told us enough. At the very least it told us enough for it to not be considered a plot hole.

Again, all we know is that Roxas's existence is a roadblock to Sora's awakening. We don't know why.

What Days explains is that Roxas's existence interferes with Sora's restoration because he has absorbed the memories of Kairi that were transferred into Xion, and these memories are too essential to leave out. But anything about Roxas holding the key memories that Sora needs to wake up (and specifically about these memories being missing because they exist in him) was left out of KHII. We need Days to tell us why Namine - who was the one who took these memories away from Sora in the first place - can't put them back.

KHII tells us that Roxas is absorbing these memories. That's why she can't put them back. It doesn't tell us exactly why this is happening, but the player can assume that it has to do with the unnatural state of the nobody and original coexisting. Which is partly true. We just didn't get the whole story until Days.

EDIT: Also, personally I think they should just re-release KHI, Re:Com, and KHII on the 3DS, given that it's already the system with compatibility with the most games out of the series. (I'd ask for BBS also, but that's probably asking too much.) Of course, they'll probably just wind up on the Vita or home console platforms as downloadable titles (the latter would be entirely acceptable, of course, especially if it was a multi-platform distribution), but hey, I can dream, can't I?

I just want KHI and KHII international. Fighting Xemnas in KHI and fighting Terra and all of the Organization members in KHII. I want to so bad. It's about time I replay these anyway. I want the BBS international extra bosses too, but I just played BBS last year.

A recent fanlated scan shows that YMX is apparently saying that he [Sora] will not be his sense of self and that it's a strange occurence with Sora.

got this pre-ordered already. so who else thinks that the 10th anniversary special will be an hd collection of kingdom hearts 1&2 final mix?

I hope it is. I haven't played KHII since 2006 and I haven't played the first one since middle school. I'm in my 4th year of college. I'm itching to replay them. I know the second I do, an HD collection will be announced though. That's what happened with Final Fantasy X International. I imported a Japanese copy (it has an English option) so I could finally play it. I ♥♥♥♥ you not, the HD port for the PS3 was announced the day after I beat it.

KHII tells us that Roxas is absorbing these memories.

No, it doesn't.

It completely glosses over any real explanation as to why Roxas's existence interferes with Sora's memories. Again, it can't be (and isn't) the mere fact that he exists, since he and Sora coexisted during the events of KH and CoM, and it was Namine who tampered with Sora's memories.

The quote I gave you awhile back is the only reference to the reason why Roxas is necessary for Sora's awakening, and it's vague as hell. We need the outside explanation of Days to understand what's going on in KHII.

KHII doesn't tell us what you're saying it tells us.

That's what I've been saying this entire time.

Originally Posted by Lex

No, it doesn't.

It completely glosses over any real explanation as to why Roxas's existence interferes with Sora's memories. Again, it can't be (and isn't) the mere fact that he exists, since he and Sora coexisted during the events of KH and CoM, and it was Namine who tampered with Sora's memories.

It can be the mere fact that he exists. In CoM Sora wasn't unconscious. His body and mind had far greater natural defense against being absorbed. Even then, there's nothing that says Sora can't exist with his memories partly absorbed. Only that he can't wake up from Namine's healing process until he's completely healed.

The quote I gave you awhile back is the only reference to the reason why Roxas is necessary for Sora's awakening, and it's vague as hell. We need the outside explanation of Days to understand what's going on in KHII.

This is obviously not true. If it were true I and countless other fans wouldn't have understood what was going on, and we did. We knew that Roxas was absorbing Sora's memories years before Days came out. There are no lines that flat out say that this is what's happening, but you can read between the lines.

Originally Posted by silver arrow

It can be the mere fact that he exists.

It isn't.

It's the fact that Xion exists.

Which we didn't know about until Days.

Originally Posted by Lex

It isn't.

It's the fact that Xion exists.

Which we didn't know about until Days.

It's the fact that Roxas, who has absorbed Xion exists. Because Roxas absorbed Xion is the why. We didn't know the why, nor did we need to at the time. We did know that he did though and at the time could attribute it to the fact that he exists in an unusual state. Xion only has to do with the memories of Kairi anyway.

Having a person separated into two parts and having one part absorb parts of the other part, like memories is a fairly common theme in fiction. The absorption happens because they are supposed to be one person. That's the assumption anyway.

Originally Posted by Dexhayn

got this pre-ordered already. so who else thinks that the 10th anniversary special will be an hd collection of kingdom hearts 1&2 final mix?

That would be pretty sweet. Those would probably be exclusive to the PS3, though, so I wouldn't get the chance to play them.