Will they ever make roms legal?

Originally Posted by Elec Man

No, because that million dollars would have belonged to someone else. Piracy is when you copy items and distribute, not when you outright steal them. In your case, nobody would have lost anything, and now you would have a million dollars.

No it wouldn't have belonged to someone else, it's all electronic. I just increased my own electronic number, not decrease someone else, it's all just information saying how much I have.

Originally Posted by 8bit

I would suggest that your future posts be more constructive, and less baseless, but that would be rent-a-moding, so I am going to wait for a mod to correct you instead.

Hard to be constructive when you fail to acknowledge that a point you keep trying to make has been invalidated multiple times over the past year. But if you feel offended, I'm sorry. I'm just trying to help you get rid of your bad habits.

Originally Posted by 8bit

This has been shown to be false experimentally. People pirate for a variety of reasons, though most people pirate because they can not afford to purchase the information in question. Of the people who pirate despite being able to afford the product, and who do not go on to purchase the product after pirating, their impacted is negated by the advertising generated by piracy. Ultimately, you end up with a much larger user-base, but an equivalent number of sales to what you could expect without piracy.

Source? For everything, please.

It's hard for me to take your "too poor" argument seriously when a pro-piracy pro-"too poor ;_;" user here has demonstrated that he's had enough money to buy videogames but would rather spent the whole $700 he had to be able to run the games he pirates. When you conquer temptation and master self-moderation I'll take your words seriously. Otherwise, just saying something isn't gonna make me believe it's true.

As for advertising "generated": most pirates don't want everyone to know they pirate games. So really, you only tell other pirates about the game. And they were more than likely going to download it anyway, especially if it is going to be a big game. So I think this point is null.

Originally Posted by 8bit

Piracy does not interfere with that right.

Just because it's not stealing something physically doesn't mean it isn't wrong. Say you're a college professor and someone installs a hidden microphone and camera in the classroom and gets the benefit of the expensive class for free, he didn't steal anything physically, but he did take information. Are you arguing that's good?

I view ROMs and Abandonware pretty much the same way I view used game sales. The publisher gets only one sale from a used game, no matter how many grubby hands it goes through. It's the same with a ROM. Someone bought it at one point, and now they pass around the file.

Sure, I'd love to buy the game new, but I don't have the cash so I go for used.

Sure, I'd love to pay for a digital file, but with all the DRM and incompatible systems, I have to go for the DRM free ROM.

I'm just going to post this here...
And with that I leave this thread, have a happy flame war people.

Originally Posted by Radek

This argument has been defeated time and time again on these forums. Sad how you fail to recognize this

Hard to be constructive when you fail to acknowledge that a point you keep trying to make has been invalidated multiple times over the past year

I've been here since 2006 and I can safely say that for throughout my time here that, good sir, is a lie.

(It's unfortunate, but the silly-billy capitalists don't like acknowledging the fact that 8bit always pwns everyone at pretty much every argument here, dooming the topic to a perpetual cycle of 8bit posting incredibly thoughtful, logically-constructed arguments and his opponents' arguments essentially being nothing more than attempt to "win" by flaunting their egos (Or, simply, acting like they're winning) :( )

(I feel as if I am the only one who was ever graceful enough to back away from my old capitalist, pro-IP views after being defeated so many times by the correct side here; I am such a good, open-minded person :) )

As for advertising "generated": most pirates don't want everyone to know they pirate games. So really, you only tell other pirates about the game. And they were more than likely going to download it anyway, especially if it is going to be a big game. So I think this point is null.

Anonymity is a powerful thing.

Originally Posted by pj777

You know what he means.

Anyways, no. While an original copy may be hard to find, Nintendo still sells many of their older games on virtual console and whatnot, and Microsoft sells older games (I know Banjo-Kazooie/Tooie is one of them) through Xbox Live. It isn't like they've completely disappeared off of stores, they just have digital copies available for download.

Oh Nintendo, where is my Genghis Khan and Genghis Khan 2 I was promised from the Revolution? Also, Crystalis?

Originally Posted by Andross

I've been here since 2006 and I can safely say that for throughout my time here that, good sir, is a lie.

Saying something without the proof to back it up... isn't that the whole winning thing you were talking about? Or am I wrong? (I do realize I'm doing the same thing but would be willing to back up my claims.)

(It's unfortunate, but the silly-billy capitalists don't like acknowledging the fact that 8bit always pwns everyone at pretty much every argument here, dooming the topic to a perpetual cycle of 8bit posting incredibly thoughtful, logically-constructed arguments and his opponents' arguments essentially being nothing more than attempt to "win" by flaunting their egos (Or, simply, acting like they're winning) :( )

I really don't see it that way. In my opinion, he always uses cyclical arguments and predictably "leads the witness".

Originally Posted by Radek

Saying something without the proof to back it up... isn't that the whole winning thing you were talking about? Or am I wrong? (I do realize I'm doing the same thing but would be willing to back up my claims.)

I've never seen him fail to provide evidence, for this topic or any other, after being asked (I have seen many people go "tl;dr" and ask for summaries of the stuff he provides, which ultimately defeats the point, though (Such is the unfortunate irony of ZU )).

I really don't see it that way. In my opinion, he always uses cyclical arguments and predictably "leads the witness".

I've always seen his arguments as stuff someone knowledgeable of formal logic and fallacy would present, and I've always seen most of his opponents as dodging the points when he points out how their arguments are less valid than his (This is probably why Serious Discussion will never ever be fully successful on ZU; there aren't enough people like 8bit qualified for talking about such things).

8bit can win all the logical arguments he wants. The empirical fact is that, when properly regulated, capitalism works better than communism.

Well, I rescind what I said earlier. He's definitely not cyclical.

I'll edit this post with a response to you when I get back from work, Andross.

Originally Posted by Vulpes

8bit can win all the logical arguments he wants. The empiracal fact is that, when properly regulated, capitalism works better than communism.

How can it be empirical fact when we've never observed communism? We haven't reached the conditions for communism to exist in modern society, yet.

The only way we can currently determine which is better is from a rational perspective. And from a rational perspective, communism wins by a long-shot, as all of those logically argued victories demonstrate.

Originally Posted by 8bit

I would love to give the game developers that choice. Of the ones who do have that choice, many have allowed 'piracy' via copyleft liscenses which ensure the right to distribute and modify their product. Others have not incorporated these licenses into their products, but few attempt to enforce their copyright.

The reason that a lot of companies might oppose piracy is because, for a small number of already very profitable companies, e.g., Nintendo, Microsoft, Sony, Ubisoft, EA, Activision, etc... piracy can negatively impact profits, albeit, indirectly.

Lets say that you are a fan of the Pokemon games. You like the games a lot, and buy every new version. Then you come across a new game called 'Minecraft'. You've never heard of this game before, but it looks interesting, however... It's $15! That's a pretty big jump for something you've never really seen in action. So you pirate it, and lo and behold, you love it! You like it even more than Pokemon. You like it enough to even go and purchase a legitimate copy of the game. Everything's going great until, suddenly, you hear that both a new Pokemon game and a new game made by the creators of Minecraft, called Scrolls, comes out next month. Unfortunately you only have enough money to purchase one. Well, due to the knowledge you've gained from piracy, you now know that you like games developed by Mojang (the developers of Minecraft) more than you like the Pokemon series, so, this time, instead of purchasing the new Pokemon game, you purchase the new Mojang game.

This is called democratization of information. While this does negatively effect a company's profits, it does so at the benefit of another product, and it only does so because the consumer now knows that the competitor has developed a better product. This hurts larger companies and helps poorer companies and developers, not because larger companies necessarily develop worse games, but because most people already have knowledge of what is offered by the larger companies, but not of what is offered by poorer companies and developers.

This is why it's actually good for society if you pirate as often possible. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't ever buy anything anymore, but that you should consider pirating the product to find out if it is better than competing products which you could spend your money on instead.

I pirated all of the Bioware Infinity Engine games before I decided to purchase them from GoG.com. I never would have even tried them if I hadn't pirated.

Seems to me that all games should just have readily available demos to serve that purpose. Pirating for the sake of demoing a game is indeed good, but it shouldn't be necessary with adequate demos.

Fact of the matter is, most pirates don't ever pay for the games. They just continue playing all of the games they ever want for free. Why pay for it when you can get it for free right? This can only have a negative effect on the industry. In a perfect world where everyone was honest, it'd be fine. It isn't a perfect world though.

I'll come right out and say that I play roms on my computer. And I don't feel bad about it either. It's not the same as playing them on consoles, so I buy them when I can. But I'm a poor son of a ♥♥♥♥♥. Also, the only real reason I play roms is for doing Let's Plays because I can use Fraps to record them directly off the computer.

Originally Posted by Radek

This argument has been defeated time and time again on these forums. Sad how you fail to recognize this

I don't really understand the argument myself.

Not anytime soon. Especially since companies like Capcom are trying to get rid of used gaming, you can forget about making ROMs legal.

Originally Posted by silver arrow

Seems to me that all games should just have readily available demos to serve that purpose. Pirating for the sake of demoing a game is indeed good, but it shouldn't be necessary with adequate demos.

Fact of the matter is, most pirates don't ever pay for the games. They just continue playing all of the games they ever want for free. Why pay for it when you can get it for free right? This can only have a negative effect on the industry. In a perfect world where everyone was honest, it'd be fine. It isn't a perfect world though.

You're never gonna really defeat piracy. When a game has antipiracy in it, someone always finds a way around it.

And as far as Operation Rainfall goes for us North Americans, well...



I say that's Nintendo's fault. I myself am too lazy to pirate the games, but I support those who do.

Software is software, regardless of whether it's copied software. There's effectively no distinction between the two as far as being a good that the producer has a right to sell.

Stealing a 2 liter of coke is equivalent to stealing a game from a video game store, because both these acts take away inventory the store payed for and make it impossible to recover that unit of inventory. Copying a game does not take away any units of inventory from anyone.

Except "illegal distribution" and "free market" are two different things. Yes, the "market" sets the price, but it does so via buying practices, not by stealing and illegally distributing goods.

Copyright is government regulation that disrupts the free market. It gives the producers a monopoly and the ability to set the price rather than the market being the one to set it.

Therefore hacking into a bank computer and giving myself a million dollars is okay since I didn't take that money from anyone physically?

Yeah, you're stealing money from the bank, because they'll lose that million once you withdraw it.