"Looksism"

I'm sure this will invite the supposedly "tough-love" advice to just "be more confident," but the reality is that women AND men face discrimination based on their appearance.

My firm belief is that people, as a rule, grossly underestimate the role biology has in our judgment of other people.

Men get most of the blame for being shallow and this is usually deserved. I freely confess to a bit of shallowness myself. It's hard to resist making snap judgments about people who are overweight and I rarely to never find myself attracted to heavier women (I know, I'm a pig).

But women aren't off the hook. For all the unfair discrimination they face based on their appearance and weight, they discriminate as well, but based on height.

I am a shorter guy (~5'6") so is this just sour grapes, right? Absolutely--it is hard not to be a little bitter, because height is something you have almost no control over. And the facts don't lie: women prefer tall men. The ideal height is 6 feet (well above the average). Tall men are more likely to have children and remarry a younger women later in life. In fewer than 1% of marriages is the woman taller than the man. And consider this damning article:

Likewise, evolution may have led women to prefer taller men.

Women will take just about any shortcoming in a man, except in the height department, according to Andrea McGinty, who founded the San Diego-based dating service It's Just Lunch.

McGinty helped ABCNEWS put together an experiment to test just how willing women are to date shorter men. We brought together several short men and asked them to stand next to taller men. We invited groups of women to look at the men and choose a date.

To see if the women would go for short guys who were successful, ABCNEWS' Lynn Sherr created extraordinary résumés for the shorter men. She told the women that the shorter men included a doctor, a best-selling author, a champion skier, a venture capitalist who'd made millions by the age of 25.

Nothing worked. The women always chose the tall men. Sherr asked whether there'd be anything she could say that would make the shortest of the men, who was 5 feet, irresistible. One of the women replied, "Maybe the only thing you could say is that the other four are murderers." Another backed her up, saying that had the taller men had a criminal record she might have been swayed to choose a shorter man. Another said she'd have considered the shorter men, if the taller men had been described as "child molesters."

The Ugly Truth About Beauty - ABC News

My personal experience is completely in line. I've done dating sites and women frequently list taller men as a preference. And though this obviously anecdotal and unscientific, I have observed beyond any doubt that the taller the woman who I send a message to, the less likely I am to get a response. In the rare event that I get a date with a "tall" (5'6" or higher) woman, it is almost inevitably more awkward and less enjoyable than my dates with shorter women. I have never kissed a woman of equal or greater height, always shorter.

Of course, the impact of "looksism" extends beyond the dating scene. Taller men are "perceived as more intelligent, more dominant and better leaders." Taller men tend to make considerably more money as well.

Can short guys make up the difference in other ways? Get this--according to my source--to be as sexually desirable as a 6 foot man who makes $62,500 a year, a 5'5" man would have to make . . . $237,500! (The dark irony, of course, is that a shorter man is much less likely to make that amount)

I do expect to get some more less hostile responses for this post. My experience is that people do not generally like considering the biological constraints on our behavior and opportunities. They might see it as fatalistic or deterministic. It might not jive with their worldview that personality is all that matters. They might not want to imagine themselves as being influenced by factors beyond their control, and psychologically, maybe that is for the best. Knowledge can be a genie in a bottle; knowing these facts, will I create self-fulfilling prophecies that limit my potential? Perhaps. However, I try to acknowledge and accept reality for what it is.

What is to be gained from this knowledge, aside from resentment toward my genetic endowment? Insight and sympathy, perhaps. As a short guy, I can relate on some level with the homely, overweight woman. Much as it is very hard for my male brain to find her attractive, it is hard for her female brain to find me attractive; counter-intuitive as it may seem, for her, a short guy "looks" like an overweight woman.

Maybe this is too cynical or heavy for GCC, but I guess I'm interested to see what people think.

Source for facts/statements: "Do Gentleman Really Prefer Blondes?" by Jena Pincott.

what you say is undoubtedly true, but i think short men need to stop being butthurt over it. it sucks and it's unfair but that insecurity you have over something that's so insignificant doesn't help anything either, does it? sky's the limit, don't stunt yourself.

also, i'm a bit more worried about the way society in general views a short man more than women in terms of attraction.

Well for your short thing I honestly would suggest that you move to Utah. Girls there like guys your height. I was subject to the opposite of you in a relationship I had there. I'm just over 6 feet, and that was too tall. And I as a person when I look in the mirror find myself too short.

IT is so true that biological factors work towards our opinions and attractions to others. Men have it ezpecially hard, because women more or less are all beautiful or if not pretty at the least. Most men don't have the toned body, or the ideal height or even a good face and this hurts us with many people we wish to attract because humans are a judgemental species.

It reminds me of a graph I saw comparing males attractiveness to get a girl compaired to a females. Where males needed to be a nine or ten for the best chances a girl who is a three has aalmost as good a chance as a ten. Which goes to show our judgemental process as we rate people and their appearance on a scale.

Honey, when you are 5'9" yer gonna want someone about your same size. No offense, its just...the way i am. Im tall so i prefer taller blokes. But its not like i havent dated a short guy before. So yeah.

Also ladies really hate Napoleon Complex. (read: really pissed off short dudes.) Cuz like no one likes a jerk.

Originally Posted by Severus Snape

(read: really pissed off short dudes.)

But a tall jerk comes off as being "cool," maybe?

that's so insignificant doesn't help anything either, does it

This will probably strike you as whiny, but the problem is that I don't think it is insignificant. I'd agree that dwelling on it is not helpful, but it can affect your life on so many levels.

An obvious one is sports. I played basketball growing up. It was fun and I was a pretty decent point guard. But my potential was always much lower than taller guys. I had to play harder and smarter just to compete. And when I did do well, the praise I got was always put in the context of my lack of height. "You do such a good job for how short you are."

When you're short, it is much harder to command a presence socially. This works against you on multiple levels. First, other people perceive you as less deserving of respect and attention. Then, this lesser treatment has a way of undermining your confidence.

No, it's not impossible to achieve success as a shorter man, but it is a hell of a lot harder in many aspects of life (socially, career wise, athletics, women). The odds are stacked against you.

Of course, I'm not claiming a unique disadvantage. Life is not fair. We all know that. There are plenty of disadvantaged groups (poverty, overweight, low IQ, abusive upbringing, minority status, disease etc.)

But a tall jerk comes off as being "cool," maybe?

Exactly! This is a perfect example of how being short colors people's perceptions of you. A tall jackass is just a jackass. A short jackass has a "Napolean complex."

Yes, obviously I have some bitterness. But I want to emphasize that the same unfair treatment/limitations apply to unattractive/overweight women. It really is a very similar situation.

But a tall jerk comes off as being "cool," maybe?

Douche bag tall guys suck too. Douche bags come in all shapes and sizes. I think the objective here is that not all ladies dig tall and not all ladies dig short. People do have a right to have tastes.

Originally Posted by Bill

This will probably strike you as whiny, but the problem is that I don't think it is insignificant. I'd agree that dwelling on it is not helpful, but it can affect your life on so many levels.

An obvious one is sports. I played basketball growing up. It was fun and I was a pretty decent point guard. But my potential was always much lower than taller guys. I had to play harder and smarter just to compete. And when I did do well, the praise I got was always put in the context of my lack of height. "You do such a good job for how short you are."

When you're short, it is much harder to command a presence socially. This works against you on multiple levels. First, other people perceive you as less deserving of respect and attention. Then, this lesser treatment has a way of undermining your confidence.

No, it's not impossible to achieve success as a shorter man, but it is a hell of a lot harder in many aspects of life (socially, career wise, athletics, women). The odds are stacked against you.

Of course, I'm not claiming a unique disadvantage. Life is not fair. We all know that. There are plenty of disadvantaged groups (poverty, overweight, low IQ, abusive upbringing, disease etc.j)

i suppose i wouldn't know anything about that.

trust me man. it has a LARGE impact, yes. a very large one. but it is only significant because you're making it significant. you have the power to command respect and make it insignificant. sure it's a little harder, maybe, but short guys can't be babies about it all the damn time.

Douche bag tall guys suck too. Douche bags come in all shapes and sizes. I think the objective here is that not all ladies dig tall and not all ladies dig short. People do have a right to have tastes.

It's obviously true that all women don't prefer taller guys (just as there are men out there who do in fact prefer heavy women), but the way you phrase it makes it sound 50:50. It isn't. And unfortunately, even for a lot of those who claim that height is not an important factor, this preference may still operate subconsciously.

In our society, it is a taboo to judge people based on their physical characteristics, so we tend not to do it openly. But that doesn't mean those factors are not in play.

I'm 174 (or 5'7 in retarded measure) which is... not short but still far from what most would consider tall.

Yeah, I've noticed girls usually go for the taller guys though in my case, I think most girls just generally don't like me for some reason, at least Swedish girls (so ♥♥♥♥'em, they're missing out)

Life isn't fair but you have to find your own style and get by with what you have. Everyone has something

I am 5'10 or 178cm tall.

I am technically of average height, but below the median height of men. At least in Australia, and yeah, my height has been noted as an issue when it comes to women. But that doesn't mean that there aren't solutions. Wearing tighter fitting clothing and longer shoes give the impression of a taller person. I am well in proportion and using the right clothing I appear as tall enough guy, even if in the end when I stand next to a lady they are often taller than me.

I have dated 3 girls who were all taller than me. Yeah height is a factor, but it is not the be all and end all. You have to remember that when a tall guy opens his mouth and sounds like a ♥♥♥♥ing idiot, well, he's not that attractive any more.

As for the other factors of life you have mentioned, Bill, I would say that I am not hindered by my height in any strong sense. I am forward with my opinions and principles and do not tolerate negativity towards me, I command a lot of respect in my life (man I sound like such a conceited ass hole) and I am relatively short.



As for the whole lookism thing...
I don't like the word shallow. I'll be completely honest here:
I cannot look past unattractiveness.

But that does not make me shallow. Yes attractiveness features highly in my criteria for a partner. And yes I have very high standards when it comes to attractiveness. But ♥♥♥♥, when a beautiful opens her mouth and all she has to say is ♥♥♥♥ing dumb ♥♥♥♥, or she is bigoted, or just a plain ♥♥♥♥♥, bam, I can't look past that either.


In fact her physical appearance changes in my eyes right before me.

And the same is true in the opposite sense. When I meet a girl I do not find attractive, yet our interactions are just so much fun, and I find her intelligent and wonderful, well she literally in my eyes becomes more and more beautiful.

It's weird like that. Yeah she does have a harder job, since I didn't find her attractive to begin with, but ♥♥♥♥ anyone who would call me shallow, because I am ♥♥♥♥ing not. Shallowness implies superficial criteria which are only focused on the skin deep level. Clearly that is not the case, and I am sure many people get called shallow who do not deserve to be named as such.




It is unfortunate, but yes at the end of the day, how attractive someone is really helps them in many ways through life. But grooming is the most important part, not your physical looks per se.

Dress well, smell well and carry your self with grace and you'll be seen as more attractive, than the dirty idiot with nice bone structure.

I'm like 5'10 or so. I've never had an issue.

This reminds me somewhat of this thread I made a year ago:
Vertically Challenged

Lol I'm 5'7 with a great build and I'm handsome. I've dated ALL typesSkinny, large, tall, short and every ethnicity and combination in between. And speaking from experience it's weird when you kiss a woman who is a foot taller than you. And trust me that's not the most awkward thing either. Try making love to an amazon. (sorry for you tall girls no offense.)

It's just awkward, or when your cuddling your the one leaning on her shoulder because it's uncomfortable for you both the other way around. Studies and sciences can say whatever they want. I think it just boils down to, does it feel right for you. I mean lets base this off unofficial law of humanity "everyone is different." If that's true than those studies are full of crap to begin with. No matter how much logic you pour into it. It doesn't make sense if you agree with that law.

Oh and as for personal preferences I like slightly larger woman when it comes to body weight. ^__^ I like me woman that way more. Curves are a wonderful thing. Preferable shorter than I, but I've been known to date woman much taller than me as well.

I am a pretty tall woman (180 cm, so like 5'11) so I would like to date taller guys. However, I've realized that I can no longer be too picky with that sort thing (If I wish to find a decent guy) since I'm taller than most people I come across. I'm taller than my boyfriend and everything is coolbeans so far.

As for this "Napoleon Complex", it doesn't exist. Jerks are jerks, and that's all they are. For all different reasons.

As for being shallow, due to my asexuality is hard to judge. I only think that someone is kind of shallow if they deny someone just because of one factor. Let's say, for example, alright, you've met this girl. She enjoys everything that you do, except she's a Red Socks fan and you are a Yankees fan. You now won't even give her a chance because of this one thing. That, in my opinion, is shallow.

^Very interesting that tall women face a dilemma too (as I said, fewer than 1% of marriages have the woman being taller than the man).

If my perception is similar to other men, it's not that we don't find tall women attractive; we do. However, we tend to prefer women shorter than us, maybe because we feel we have a better chance or don't want to be an "awkward" couple.

Luckily for taller women, I'm not of aware of any effect of their height on the career or social success. I think it's a non-factor.

[EDIT]

To clarify what I said before, I would definitely date a taller woman if the opportunity came up. But all things being equal, I'm usually more attracted to shorter women for the simple reason that, based on my experience, it is easier for me to imagine that turning out well.

RE Female height:
I like tall girls. Tall girls means long legs.


LEEEEGGGSSSS

the only thing that would make a shorter girl more appealing to me than a taller girl is the simple fact that i feel like i have more of a shot with the shorter girl. if it weren't for that, i have no preference whatsoever because tall girls are beautiful too. i mean, man, those legs.

edit fuk u sawl

the only thing that would make a shorter girl more appealing to me than a taller girl is the simple fact that i feel like i have more of a shot with the shorter girl. if it weren't for that, i have no preference whatsoever because tall girls are beautiful too. i mean, man, those legs.

Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to say. And yes, taller girls do have the legs going for them.