Silly Arguments, Contempt, and the Difference Between "Less" and "Fewer"

Last night I endured an uncomfortable moment with my roommate.

He was telling a story, when he said fewer--then "corrected" himself--and said less people.

My roommate is a very smart guy and our conversations often thrive on silly tangents. I would never make an issue of someone incorrectly using less/fewer, but since he himself made a point to distinguish them, I thought I'd pursue it.

I wish I hadn't.

I contended that you would never use "less" with "people" because "people" are discrete units that can be counted. I tried to make a comparison with "water"; water is an aggregate entity, so you would say "less water" rather than "fewer water," but if you spoke of "drops of water," you would use fewer. Failing to to grasp the grammatical point I was making, he replied that asking for "fewer drops of water" would never actually happen (which isn't true--chem lab comes to mind). So, in order to make my point more relevant and feasible, I turned "drops of water" into "gumdrops." Then the argument repeated itself with "candy" and "gumdrops" replacing "water" and "drops of water."

By this point, he had already looked up the difference between less and fewer in his grammar reference book, which gave me the impression that he enjoyed and was engaged in the discussion.

But, an exchange or two later, he suddenly said: "Bill, I stopped listening awhile ago." On an intellectual level, I knew this was a cop out. He was wrong and had made the realization that he was wrong, and instead of admitting he was wrong, he adopted an apathetic posture.

But on a personal level, I felt terrible. Sometimes in pursuit of victory, you lose sight of what you're trying to accomplish. From the beginning, I truly did have good intentions. I wasn't trying to belittle his opinions or prove my superiority; I enjoy debates and I thought he was enjoying it too. But the uneasy silence that followed proved beyond reasonable doubt that he did not.

Perhaps my accumulation of thousands of posts on ZU can be best attributed to a compulsive need to start petty arguments. Online, the repercussions of doing so are trivial, but in person, they can be profound. I've found, generally, that most people don't enjoy debates the way I do. People want their ideas validated, not challenged. Winning an argument usually amounts to social loss, which makes sense when you think about it. When was the last time you were grateful that someone poked holes in your ideas? I've learned, for the most part, to exercise restraint in these situations, but I'll still take the bait now and then. And I almost always regret it.

I guess last night was particularly bad as the topic was incredibly insignificant. It wasn't an important philosophical, moral, or political discussion, but a petty grammatical one. Definitely not something worth getting riled up about.

Your reaction and experiences with this kind of thing? Oh, and if you're going to just "cool story bro," don't even bother.

wow that does seem quite silly to get mad over. Have you tried apologizing?

whenever I disagree with my mom she always "no thats not right, I am your mother listen to me" D: stubbornness and unwilling to change her views

Ahh, arguments like that. You know, I fall into the same situations often when speaking with people. I try to bring up conversations about something, and the other people either takes it as an argument or makes it into one. Unfortunately since people like us are in the minority, it might be in your best interest to just apologize and learn to hold your tongue in the future (unless, of course, you find another person who likes to discuss things like you do ).

Oh man, I am exactly the same way. I like a good debate, and I also have a propensity to "inform people against their will".
I find it preposterous that most people do not enjoy learning new things, and are content to stay in their comfortable bubble of ignorance, and when I lightheartedly try to share information that I know, I get upset when it's rejected, even with unequivocal evidence.

I'm getting mad just thinking about it! lol!

when I argue with my dad we end up either wrestling and/or trying to throw chairs at each other.

Fun times.

Originally Posted by Erasmus

when I argue with my dad we end up either wrestling and/or trying to throw chairs at each other.

Fun times.

in a father-son-fun way, or a father-son-conflict-resentment way?

Originally Posted by Margar

in a father-son-fun way, or a father-son-conflict-resentment way?

in a love-hate kind of way.

We tend to forget grievances quickly though, so the awkwardness lingers less than is normal.

I love being forgetful.

It was once suggested that I wear a t-shirt that says "Now you know more". I've also been told (many times) that if I have a catchphrase, it's "Well, technically...". I generally gravitate towards people who enjoy a good debate. Around people who don't, I try to keep it to a minimum, and when I DO bring something up, people think it's cute that I can't help it. The trick is knowing when the point honestly doesn't matter. I use the word "less" most of the time, even when it should be "fewer". I really only bring out the "well, technically..." rulebook when I think it's either at least a little important, or at least mildly interesting. The difference between "less" and "fewer" is neither of these things, so yeah.

Originally Posted by Bravo

It was once suggested that I wear a t-shirt that says "Now you know more". I've also been told (many times) that if I have a catchphrase, it's "Well, technically...". I generally gravitate towards people who enjoy a good debate. Around people who don't, I try to keep it to a minimum, and when I DO bring something up, people think it's cute that I can't help it. The trick is knowing when the point honestly doesn't matter. I use the word "less" most of the time, even when it should be "fewer". I really only bring out the "well, technically..." rulebook when I think it's either at least a little important, or at least mildly interesting. The difference between "less" and "fewer" is neither of these things, so yeah.

Yeah, I think I need to stop and think about that befoe I open my mouth a lot. I have a tendancy to correct people whenit's not really that necesary and just come off as a know it all or something.
But I do happen to store a lot of nifty facts up there in my noggin, and a lot of the time when I bring it out, the reaction is "how in the hell do you know that?"

For instance, the fact that I know that a mile is exactly 5,280 feet has proven both useful, interesting, and baffling on several occasions

Gee, you know, this.... nah, never mind.

I get into these (many times unintentionally). When my friend and I get into these sorts of things (which has happened a couple times), we always end up both just getting exhausted and realizing we were both being dicks. So at least those always end on a good note. It could be a lot worse.

I like being wrong. I learn new things that way.

Originally Posted by AIDS

I like being wrong. I learn new things that way.

I really wish there were more people like this in the world, especially in politics, namely legislation, lol!!

Originally Posted by Tonchiki

Gee, you know, this.... nah, never mind.

I get into these (many times unintentionally). When my friend and I get into these sorts of things (which has happened a couple times), we always end up both just getting exhausted and realizing we were both being dicks. So at least those always end on a good note. It could be a lot worse.

I wish it was that easy for me.

Once me and my friend were watching Back to the Future and he started talking about Marty "Macfly" and how "Mac" is scottish or something. I told him that his name was Marty "Mcfly". All of a sudden he yelled at me for correcting him and left.

Originally Posted by AIDS

I like being wrong. I learn new things that way.

Ahh. My father always said that you learn from failure. How right he was.

It's "there are fewer coins" and "there is less money". Are and fewer go together, and is and less go together. "There are something people" involves an are, so the correct version is "fewer people", not "less people", meaning you were correct.

I tend not to correct people in real life because they get pissed off, and I grew out of it, but I still do it with great delight over the internet because the person getting pissed off miles away and I couldn't care less.

I would like to reiterate that I did not correct him initially. I'm not that anal. He "corrected" himself. Then the debate sort of grew out of that. It was goofy at first, but then it abruptly turned serious and he was obviously unhappy.

As a corollary to this, I would add that I find it annoying when people can't simply admit they're wrong. Whenever I'm in a debate or discussion and I have unequivocally been proven wrong (which can and has happened on matters of fact, not opinion or belief), I make sure to admit it and validate the other person. I hate when people do what my roommate did and feign apathy. That's just BS. If you're going to argue a point, don't just back out and act like it doesn't matter if you end up being wrong.

It's "there are fewer coins" and "there is less money". Are and fewer go together, and is and less go together. "There are something people" involves an are, so the correct version is "fewer people", not "less people", meaning you were correct.

I hadn't thought of it that way, but I think that explanation follows from the reasoning I use. "Is" is the singular linking verb and "are" is the plural linking verb. Anything that can occur in the plural can be counted; you can have two gumdrops, but you can't have two waters. Thus, you use fewer for gumdrops, less for water, fewer for people, and less for candy (in a general sense--the moment you consider discrete pieces of candy, you'd use fewer candies--but then again, note that I had to switch to the plural).

Bottom line, it's nit-picky and there was no reason to delve into it. I had amiable intentions, but I should have known it wouldn't end well.

Originally Posted by Margar

For instance, the fact that I know that a mile is exactly 5,280 feet has proven both useful, interesting, and baffling on several occasions

Why is that baffling at all? Isn't that common to learn in 3rd grade?

Anyway, yeah, I was told that it's "less people" in the past, but I made the same argument you did: that "people" is "persons". You say "the people are here", etc. I have a terrible habit of doing exactly what you did and thus being called a very argumentative person. I've since gotten better at not getting so picky about something so asinine, but I've always had good intentions. What happens, though, is that we'll be rattling on playfully until the person finally says something that does genuinely need to be corrected, and it is no longer insignificant. Because of this, a longer debate ensues, and that's when I'm labeled as arrogant and quick to argue.

A couple close friends of mine are always correcting each others' spelling and grammar just to piss each other off. Of course, I occasionally enter the fray as well. For example:

"Hey were were you this morning?"

"Were were? WERE WERE?!?! DUMBASS"


We tend to have a good laugh about it.

I can definitely relate to that, as I used to be more closeminded about learning new things. I've changed though, and obviously still am. I can tell you right now that it's definitely a matter of maintaining a fragile ego, and I speak from personal experience with myself and others.

It could depend on one's mood. You're obviously not going to be very openminded if you're feeling down or pissed.

It's one of those things that give you two choices - the emotional reaction, or the logical reaction. The latter is more difficult, but I've bitten the sour apple. Obviously most people that feel something is the easy way out tend to prefer focusing on their emotions and their ego. Having said that, the ego of course represents your self-esteem and/or self-confidence.

It's a bit ironic that we can choose to shield our egos by being closeminded, when in fact being openminded is the way to truly build a balanced ego - healthy self-confidence and self-esteem. It's like having to tear down an old building to build something new, something better. That metaphor describes what I'm trying to say very accurately.

Originally Posted by Da Vinci

Once me and my friend were watching Back to the Future and he started talking about Marty "Macfly" and how "Mac" is scottish or something. I told him that his name was Marty "Mcfly". All of a sudden he yelled at me for correcting him and left.

...But isn't "Mc" just a shortening of "Mac"?

EDIT: I'm not saying they're interchangeable; just that at some point in history various Macs decided they wanted to be Mcs instead. Or close enough.

Originally Posted by Sabbo

...But isn't "Mc" just a shortening of "Mac"?

EDIT: I'm not saying they're interchangeable; just that at some point in history various Macs decided they wanted to be Mcs instead. Or close enough.

Correct, but that would still be irrelevant to the argument do to the fact it wasn't about what "Mc" or "Mac" was. It was about him spelling and pronouncing it "Macfly".