My Final Decision on Ganon

Personaly, I doubt nintnedo was trying to fit tp into the timeline in any way, shape, or form. Infact, I doubt that there thinging of the timeline even 1/20th of the time while making any zelda game. Truth is, from this point on there just going to be really good games. Not some timeline. But I do like to point out I did NOT like how link was ignored my ganondorf. ='( Makes me feel so igsignificant.

again you are foolish to think the gods are anything like what people in this world believe
the triforce is a product of the goddesses
and like them does not judge good and evil only pureness of heart.
if ganondorf had all virtues in balance and a heart of pure evil
he would have obtained the triforce

all three of them were chosen by the goddesses as the bearers of the triforce.
whether or not they are good and evil has no relevance.
that is how it is now come to terms with it.

when i said out of time itself
i meant that ganondorf was removed from all of time.
that is what your explanation is trying to say and it is plain ludicrous
if he was sealed out of time itself then he was never around to take the triforce to begin with.

when Link goes back to the past in the OoT ending, Ganondorf is still there,
thing is that Ganondorf does not know the future
does not know that he already HAS the ToP
he is exposed and brought to justice
meaning he was found to be a traitor after link/zelda informed the king of his plot.
brought to justice by being imprisoned at the Arbiter's Grounds
and then the TP cutscene of the failed execution occurs maybe after a few years of imprisonment.
this fits perfectly

Originally Posted by Raven Satori

again you are foolish to think the gods are anything like what people in this world believe
the triforce is a product of the goddesses
and like them does not judge good and evil only pureness of heart.
if ganondorf had all virtues in balance and a heart of pure evil
he would have obtained the triforce

all three of them were chosen by the goddesses as the bearers of the triforce.
whether or not they are good and evil has no relevance.
that is how it is now come to terms with it.

when i said out of time itself
i meant that ganondorf was removed from all of time.
that is what your explanation is trying to say and it is plain ludicrous
if he was sealed out of time itself then he was never around to take the triforce to begin with.

when Link goes back to the past in the OoT ending, Ganondorf is still there,
thing is that Ganondorf does not know the future
does not know that he already HAS the ToP
he is exposed and brought to justice
meaning he was found to be a traitor after link/zelda informed the king of his plot.
brought to justice by being imprisoned at the Arbiter's Grounds
and then the TP cutscene of the failed execution occurs maybe after a few years of imprisonment.
this fits perfectly

So the adult link's adventure was just useless...it was basically a vision of the furture to stop ganon?

1-He know nothing Of he master sword
quoting him "Thats an impressive looking balde you got there...but nothing more."-TP ganon
In windwaker he was well aware of the power of the master sword.
"Foolish child. While that sword is indeed
the blade of evil's bane, at the same time,
it has long played another role...

You see, it is also a sort of key...
a most wretched little key that has kept
the seal on me and my magic intact!"-WW Ganon

come on now...

The line was: "An impressive looking blade...but no more."

Afterwards he said: "Do you want to hear my plot? To take this foul blade and use it to blot out the light forever"

He was also holding the sword he took from the sages in front of him when he said this, so he might have been refering to that instead.

2-He sorta has nothing to do with the gerudo...they dont really mention his affilation with them all that much in this game.

"He was the leader of a pack of thieves." ~Generic Sage #3

3-The whoole time Ganon is present..he pays noo mind to Link at all...he Basically talks to Midna and just refers to link as her little friend...now whats good with that,Ganon from Oot would of been well aware of some boy dressed in the same hero's cloths that defeated him years back

Yeah, especially since he swore revenge on Link's ancestors after he was sealed away. But this digs into the murky timeline waters, so it' relevance depends on your beliefs about the timeline.

4-They did this in WW and Oot...but not TP..you know when ganon Zelda and Link are all near each other,you know how their triforce marks are supposed to react..that totally did not happen in TP

They all still had a piece of the triforce, they should have reacted regardless of who wielded them. It was probably an oversight by a developer.

5-Ganon was running aroung being naughty in TP Then he got banished to the twilight realm...wasnt Ganon banished to the sacred realm in Oot?

He escaped being sealed in Hyrule in tWW, being sealed in the Twilight Realm in TP, and almost escaped from the Sacred Realm (Dark World) in ALttP, he's even been brought back from the dead. If he could do all that, he could easily do that to escape from the Sacred Realm between OoT and TP.

Two quotes that support him being able to escape from the Sacred Realm are:

"Thank you, Link...Thanks to you, Ganondorf has been sealed inside the Evil Realm! Thus, peace will once again reign in this world...for a time." ~Princess Zelda

"Someday...When this seal is broken....That is when I will exterminate your descendants!! As long as the Triforce of Power is in my hand...." ~Ganondorf

Originally Posted by renagadez

So the adult link's adventure was just useless...it was basically a vision of the furture to stop ganon?

how is that useless?
if you had a vision of the future in which your family was murdered,
and then had a chance to go back to before it happened and change it,
would you not do everything you could to change it?

they never mention the sacred realm or ganon being sealed in it
during the entire course of TP.
so either it takes place after the child ending in which ganondorf was never sealed,
or it's a reboot and I highly doubt that.
mind you that me saying it takes place after the child ending, means I also think every other game follows the same trend.

regardless of what the developer's said YEARS ago.

Wait a minute, at the end of Ocarina of Time, everyone is having a celebration. Something must have happened in the Child Ending that had to do with Ganondorf's imprisonment, which means there is either a split timeline or everything continue's after the Child Ending.

Six of the Seven Sages are watching the celebration from Death Mountain, but they weren't awoken until Adult Link's time. Since they weren't at the celebration, I doubt they they were the future versions of themselves, they must have awakened throughout all time or something to that extent.

If everything continues from the child ending, and the sages have been awakened throughout time, then OoT ties in with TP and ALttP perfectly.

After OoT
ALttP History
TP History

The Sages warn the King about Ganondorf, the King believes them and sends his army to capture him. The King and his soldiers have a war against Ganondorf and his monsters, possibly resulting in the death of the Gerudos. The soldiers hold off Ganondorf until the Sages are able to capture him. Ganondorf is brought to the Arbiter's Grounds where he is sentenced to death, the Sages try and fail to kill him, unaware that he had succeeded at obtaining the Triforce in part, resulting in the death of Ruto*. The Sages then banish Ganondorf into the Twilight Realm.

*All of the sages look the same in TP, but it's more likely due to the art direction than limbless identicle septuplets each becoming Sages.

alttp really has nothing to do with TP
the celebration stuff is showing everyone happy in the adult timeline
at the end of the credits that timeline erases

So that happened in the Adult Ending? Well, there goes that theory.

As for the ALttP reference, it had more to do with the Seal/Imprisoning War mentioned in it than anything in TP.

I don't think you understood me, your theory depends on the child timeline,
the adult timeline ceasing to exist makes it so that only the child timeline can be the one that continues.

the most unfortunate thing about all of this is that people who claim to be linear believers continue to see things as child timeline and adult timeline.
it's really only one timeline.

the only ending is the final one
the child one.
there is but ONE HoT and the only ending can be the one where he is
everything else ceases to exist
or RATHER has yet to happen
but since he changes the future it never does happen
and instead happens a different way
he sets the stage for TP and then goes off to MM.

i think he is the same. mainly because of the tri force. i am a little rusty on my oot knowlege but since he had to go through so much trouble to get the triforce adn zelda and link got it i dont think the tri force would have went to another villain. since he had it in the tp i think he just died and used his power to come back to life. he was so powerfull i think he was just concieted about the sword or underestimated the new link.

Let me just say before I begin that I don't think Nintendo gives any real thought at all about where exactly each new Zelda game fits into an overall storyline. They leave it solely to the fans to battle it out about personal preference, believing that as long as they add bits here and there that hint to previous games they're doing their job.

But that's just how I see it.

Anyways, after giving it some thought while reading through the posts around the boards and the proposed theory on the main ZU page (I couldn't help myself but to sign up here and give my view ), I've 75% convinced myself that Twilight Princess follows Wind Waker in the whole scheme of things. [There are likely to be some bits I'll forget to put in my reasoning or a few anomalies, but hopefully this can only lead to a clear Yes or No answer once a few more opinions have been inputted.]

There are quite a few grains of 'fact' that are dotted throughout WW and TP that lead me to follow my line of thinking, with the rest (as with most of the theories) being guesswork.
So, bits of personal theory which is mostly accepted;

- In OOT adult Link defeats Ganon who is then imprisoned in the Sacred Realm. As he is now of no threat, Zelda turns back the clock so Link can re-live his childhood. However (and this is up for debate) the people of Hyrule remember his deeds and Link is treated as a Hero, leading to the 'Hero of Time' dubbing, statues, legends etc. He then buggers off to Termina and - for all we know - takes part in Links Awakening too - although this is highly irrelevant.

- [Taken from WW prologue and ZU timeline] A hundred years later and Hyrule is under threat again as Ganon breaks the seal keeping him in the Sacred Realm. The people of Hyrule wait for the Hero of Time, but he doesn't come. As such they pray to the Gods who respond by covering the land in water - along with Ganon. (Following up for debate) I haven't played WW in a while, so someone may need to fill me in a bit with the 'definites,' but as I see it the world of Hyrule, although submerged in water, is kept in a form of suspended animation with the land (and possible people?) remaining kept largely in tact.

Several hundred years later Ganon breaks free of his Hyrule prison only for Link to win the ensuing battle. It must be said that Ganon's death mirrors events of TP - as in: he dies but is somehow able to resurrect himself later on in some sort of Mortal Kombat fashion.
From here, Zelda - who is of the Royal Blood Line - carries on her life and produces heirs to the throne (even though there isn't one directly available) until somehow the water covering Hyrule is drained and life resumes again as normal with a new Zelda at the helm.

- As the events of WW go unnoticed by the people of Hyrule it is therefore easy to bail Nintendo out and sort of sweep the events under the carpet and allow the storytellers to continue their focus on the Hero of Time for TP.

Of course, simply because "it can be swept under the carpet" is no reason to put any faith in this timeline. However nor is the reason that "TP naturally FEELS like the next installment after OOT" a reason to think otherwise.

The main 'fact' that lead me down this WW -> TP road was the vital facet that NO ONE (not even the sages) in TP were aware of Ganondorfs past or his evil traits - except for the "thief" remark. For this to happen post-OOT is impossible. Only with the covering of Hyrule and 'blurring' of legends (no one in TP mentions the Hero of Time's nemesis... I think) can Ganondorf resurrect himself and go unnoticed as a threat.

Smaller 'facts' that could possibly add up;
-The Kokiri of OOT turn into the Korok of WW, yet neither appear in TP. There's the possibility that by the time TP comes around they've completely vanished, but then again, there's also the existence of a Skull Kid in TP. So it's pretty much 50/50 and down to preference.
However, personally, I'm more inclined to believe that the Korok don't go back to the forest (Ordon) once the water is drained and a village is set up there, as opposed to the Kokiri simply abandoning the forest (something they can't do) and then re-emerging again later on down the line - unless they elvolved in TP but didn't show themselves...
There are too many damn posibilities, really.


Hmm. There are a few others but I've lost my train of thought. Oh well, I'll come back to it later.

Anyways, give this a bit of a discuss and be sure to tell me if there's anything I've missed which can't possibly go. I admit it's a long shot as most people automatically assume that TP follows OOT (more for the art style I'd argue, but there you go), however the unnoticed re-emergence of Ganondorf can only be explained, in my opinion, by this timeline.

Oh, and a few other bits about TP I'd like to get off my chest while I'm here;
- It's my belief that at the end - as Ganondorf stands dying - Zant appears to him in spirit form (view Grim Reaper type being) and does the neck-breaking thingy as a sort of an extremely effective visual representation of him giving Ganon the 'boot'. It has nothing to do with the Triforce of Power or transferring bodies, Zant simply kills him in a manor similar to clicking your fingers.

- I thoroughly enjoyed the game, however felt severely let down by the role of Link and the storyline in relation to him. It's almost as though he's a spare part in the triangle between Zelda, Ganondorf and Midna. Example;
(Touched upon earlier in the thread) Ganondorf pays staggeringly little attention to Link even before their main battle. In fact Link is only mentioned once, and never directly. This contrasts hugely to OOT where they had a history longer than the length of this post, and you reaped the enjoyment benefits because of it.
Zelda, too. It was difficult to watch the cut-scenes involving only the two of them once Midna had left as the whole thing felt incredibly awkward. It was like two people who hadn't been properly introduced uncomfortably smiling at each other and avoiding eye contact so as not to take things any further than they had to. Again, this vastly differs from the complex and heartbreaking relationship developed in OOT, where there was this constant sexual intensity (phrase is never necessarily one of lust) but nothing could ever happen because they had a reputational relationship to maintain, no matter how right it all seemed.

- Oh, and Zant was crap. They should have given him a huge role at the beginning, then gotten rid of him half way through, allowing the puppet master Ganondorf to emerge out of the shadows (no pun intended) and really let things kick off. I believe then it would have allowed an excellent opportunity to develop an intense relationship between the three while also giving time to explore Midna's personality through her want to rescue Zelda.

But they're just my own ramblings that should really be in a different thread... Sorry.

Laters.

Originally Posted by Volcan

Wait a minute, at the end of Ocarina of Time, everyone is having a celebration. Something must have happened in the Child Ending that had to do with Ganondorf's imprisonment, which means there is either a split timeline or everything continue's after the Child Ending.

Six of the Seven Sages are watching the celebration from Death Mountain, but they weren't awoken until Adult Link's time. Since they weren't at the celebration, I doubt they they were the future versions of themselves, they must have awakened throughout all time or something to that extent.

If everything continues from the child ending, and the sages have been awakened throughout time, then OoT ties in with TP and ALttP perfectly.

After OoT
ALttP History
TP History

The Sages warn the King about Ganondorf, the King believes them and sends his army to capture him. The King and his soldiers have a war against Ganondorf and his monsters, possibly resulting in the death of the Gerudos. The soldiers hold off Ganondorf until the Sages are able to capture him. Ganondorf is brought to the Arbiter's Grounds where he is sentenced to death, the Sages try and fail to kill him, unaware that he had succeeded at obtaining the Triforce in part, resulting in the death of Ruto*. The Sages then banish Ganondorf into the Twilight Realm.

*All of the sages look the same in TP, but it's more likely due to the art direction than limbless identicle septuplets each becoming Sages.

Man, I'm really impressed! You just explained in few words what I've been wondering for while! I just couldn't properly fit Ganondorf's capture in a correct timeline...Thanks!