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Old 11-27-2006, 08:00 PM
ivantubaman United_States ivantubaman is offline
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Praise and Criticism for TP on Wii

Hi everyone, this is my first post, but I have followed this forum for some three months. Hope I can add some insights into the Zelda universe.
I have not bought a Wii yet but was able to play on my cousin's over thanksgiving. I even got about 4 hours play time on Zelda. However, playing Zelda TP for the first time over the weekend leads me to think that I will be happier with my preordered Gamecube version.

The Wiimote is incredible and has huge potential. I loved the way it works on WiiSports and Excite Truck (the only other games for Wii I have played). In Zelda, aiming to fire the slingshot was a dream, superb! But sword after a while got old and tedious for me. It just doesn't feel like I am directly controlling what Link does. A swing with the Wiimote results in a random hacking action that is unsatisfying (especially with Link as a wolf, swinging action to lunge forward and bite???). I feel that to really use the Wiimote to all potential, a game needs to be developed with it in mind.

Sometimes, rarely, using the Wiimote in Zelda worked. It felt exciting and intuitive. I just think that Nintendo needs more time to get completely used to using it. The potential is there.

So many reviewers simply gave all praise to the Wii control scheme, but after trying myself I think they didn't paint the whole picture. I loved part of it, I hated part of it. I hope my experience can help someone deciding which version to buy to see a clearer picture, not one clouded by pure Zelda excitement, (it happens to me too).

I was thrilled to play it over the weekend and amazed at the depth of the game, can't wait to get my hands on it.

I'm curious what you think. If you have actually played Zelda TP on the Wii, go back and play Wind Waker or Ocarina of Time for half and hour and really say what you think about the controls, Wiimote vs. gamepad. Please don't post 'your' opinion if you haven't played it yourself, but observations would be welcome.
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Old 11-27-2006, 08:06 PM
TwilightPrince1 TwilightPrince1 is offline
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Re: Praise and Criticism for TP on Wii

I own a Wii and TP and I beat the game. My opinion is that the Wii controls are far superior than anything the GC controller could produce. I can't even imagine how boring horseback combat and fishing will be on the GC. The Wii controls just feel "right". Its hard to explain and I think everyone needs to try it for themselves.

I was actually testing out the GC backwards compatibility today and I tried OoT(Collectors Edition) and the WW. It felt really weird to use the GC controller and it felt ancient to me. Using the hookshot in WW with the analog stick felt so much worse then using the Wii remote as a pointer. And I won't even get started on the sword swings...using the remote, especially the nunchuk for the spin attack, feels a lot better than pressing the B button to swing the sword.
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Old 11-27-2006, 09:01 PM
Ice_Reaver United_States Ice_Reaver is offline
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Re: Praise and Criticism for TP on Wii

I played TP then popped windwaker into my wii as well. and i have to say its mainly just prefrence. I'm sure the majority of zelda fans have adapted and like like the wii version because it has something new to offer(i must say it is quite fun). it boils down to how you feel; should the game should be button mashing or require more motion on your part. this may very well be the last zelda game for the cube and still you may not be fond of it. but there can always be a controller for the wii.
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Old 11-27-2006, 09:24 PM
IceDrake IceDrake is offline
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Re: Praise and Criticism for TP on Wii

My only complaints are really just fanboy ramblings. There is no instrument where you can play any song (and you get the horse call late in the game). There is no Mirror Shield (or any 3rd shield). There is no Biggoron Sword (or even a 3rd sword). There is no trading sequence (and this size Hyrule would have made it even more challenging). There are no mini games you can play to blow some money. The Light Armor has too many drawbacks to be of any use.

I still give the game 10/10. Those little things are from OoT nostalgia.
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Old 11-27-2006, 09:31 PM
Bill Bill is a male United States Bill is offline
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Re: Praise and Criticism for TP on Wii

Once you become deft with the Wii controls, they are in fact better. This is from a long time advocate of the Gamecube version. It is still a challenge to logically explain why the Wii control scheme is superior, but it is. On paper, I thought for sure the Gamecube controls would be at least on an equal level. Fumbling around with the Wiimote for the first couple of hours only reinforced this belief. But now I am incredibly adroit with the Wiimote. While there is no denying that having a cursor helps (people tend to forget that there was no cursor in previous Zeldas) you aim, the motion sensing also enhances one's precision--once they're good at it. I love picking off enemies with the bow even when it is far from necessary. The swordplay, on the other hand, is really no better or worse. It could be argued that it is less precise, but it is fun to use the nunchuck for spin attacks and shield bashing. People tend to complain about mixing up these manuevers, but that certainly falls on the player--not the game.

The only part of the game where the Wii controls are highly suspect is when riding the creature up and down Zora's River. I think the Wiimote made this process unreasonably fugly. I know for a fact that the analog stick would have served better in this instance. What made this scenario different from aiming projectiles (which the Wiimote unabashedly improves) is beyond me. It simply didn't work well.

The last point I'd like to adress is the fairy pointer. Nobody seems to understand it. The moment I understood its purpose was the moment the Wiimote became superior. Nintendo should have been more clear about this . . . the pointer is not there to help you target specific objects; rather, by keeping it on the screen, you avoid having the game tell you to "Point the Wii remote at the screen," and the wonky control that typically ensues. I was plagued by this early in my play experience and was ready to write off the controls as a gimmick. But then I realized that if I would keep the fairy on the screen, it wouldn't happen.

I also like the way the controls are a throw back to the 2D games. Your equipped item is always set to the most likeable button on the controller (asidee from possibly A). I could imagine Twilight Princess being much worse if only items had remained useable on the Dpad. Who wants to shoot arrows with the Dpad?

Quote:
My only complaints are really just fanboy ramblings. There is no instrument where you can play any song (and you get the horse call late in the game). There is no Mirror Shield (or any 3rd shield). There is no Biggoron Sword (or even a 3rd sword). There is no trading sequence (and this size Hyrule would have made it even more challenging). There are no mini games you can play to blow some money. The Light Armor has too many drawbacks to be of any use.
We think similarly. I'm going to write a review (or more accurately, a reflection) once I beat the game. It is going to be a reflection for Zelda fans by a Zelda fan. I'm not going to nitpick on stuff none of us actually care about--namely the lack of VA, orchestrated music, "dated" graphics, and the likes. I'm going to point out the stuff that, as a hardcore Zelda fan, I found disheartning. Your entire list (sans the Magic Armor, which I don't really have a problem with) will be mentioned, along with some other things. Unlike the major publications/media outlets, many of whom merely view Twilight Princess as "just another game" (as well as they should), I plan on analyzing it on a much deeper level, comparing it to Zeldas of old, and hopefully writing something that long time Zelda fans (particularly those of the 3D games) find worthwhile and credible.
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Old 11-27-2006, 11:00 PM
ivantubaman United_States ivantubaman is offline
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Re: Praise and Criticism for TP on Wii

Interesting thoughts and the best review of Zelda TP Wii controls I've ever read, thanks to Sheik 84. They were unbiased and informative yet gave a bit of your personal feelings.

Thinking back, I do remember how difficult it was to first use the N64 controller on Mario 64, yet today it is second nature. Perhaps Mario 64 being soooo different that it couldn't be experienced any other way except on a analog joystick made me more patient with learning new controls. Frankly, the combination of knowing that I can effectively play Zelda on a gamepad and still not feeling completely comfortable with Wii controls after 4 hours makes it hard for me to still be patient. But Sheik 84's initial frustrations with the Wii controls but later learning to love has me encouraged.

Don't get me wrong, I'll get a Wii, just not today, or this month, maybe not for a year.
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Old 11-27-2006, 11:29 PM
IceDrake IceDrake is offline
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Re: Praise and Criticism for TP on Wii

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Originally Posted by Shiek 84 View Post
We think similarly. I'm going to write a review (or more accurately, a reflection) once I beat the game. It is going to be a reflection for Zelda fans by a Zelda fan. I'm not going to nitpick on stuff none of us actually care about--namely the lack of VA, orchestrated music, "dated" graphics, and the likes. I'm going to point out the stuff that, as a hardcore Zelda fan, I found disheartning. Your entire list (sans the Magic Armor, which I don't really have a problem with) will be mentioned, along with some other things. Unlike the major publications/media outlets, many of whom merely view Twilight Princess as "just another game" (as well as they should), I plan on analyzing it on a much deeper level, comparing it to Zeldas of old, and hopefully writing something that long time Zelda fans (particularly those of the 3D games) find worthwhile and credible.
Yeah. Comparing this game to others as a Zelda game, it leaves a little to be desired. But as a game on the whole, it is excellent.

Another thing is Wiimote did, for me and probably others, was enhance the sword fighting. The new hidden skills (like in TMC) definitely played a part, but it's really how you perform them with the Wiimote that makes them better. The Wiimote lets you stab in addition to verticle, horizotal, and spin attacks. Speaking of the spin attack, it is 100x more useful than in EVERY Zelda game. A simple flick of the nunchuk and you perform it in a second. You no longer leave yourself open waiting for the swarms of enemies to close in on you. You can really create your own combos, and the spin attack is a very useful finisher (especially with full health after the last hidden skill).
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Old 11-28-2006, 01:19 AM
disaster party Australia disaster party is offline
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Re: Praise and Criticism for TP on Wii

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Originally Posted by IceDrake View Post
Yeah. Comparing this game to others as a Zelda game, it leaves a little to be desired. But as a game on the whole, it is excellent.

Another thing is Wiimote did, for me and probably others, was enhance the sword fighting. The new hidden skills (like in TMC) definitely played a part, but it's really how you perform them with the Wiimote that makes them better. The Wiimote lets you stab in addition to verticle, horizotal, and spin attacks. Speaking of the spin attack, it is 100x more useful than in EVERY Zelda game. A simple flick of the nunchuk and you perform it in a second. You no longer leave yourself open waiting for the swarms of enemies to close in on you. You can really create your own combos, and the spin attack is a very useful finisher (especially with full health after the last hidden skill).
The spin attack in OOT was just as simple (rotating the joystick then pressing B) by doing this you could perform the attack instantly.
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Old 11-28-2006, 06:58 AM
Ganon the King Australia Ganon the King is offline
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Re: Praise and Criticism for TP on Wii

Wow, so using the Wii mote and using the spin attack must be awesome then. So if I am fighting three baddies, I use the spin att, then finish each one off with vertical and horitizontal cuts and anything I want?

And I'm getting TP at midnight too!
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Old 11-28-2006, 04:01 PM
IceDrake IceDrake is offline
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Re: Praise and Criticism for TP on Wii

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The spin attack in OOT was just as simple (rotating the joystick then pressing B) by doing this you could perform the attack instantly.
Not as simple as shaking the nunchuk. And the Great Spin Attack beats out the charged spin attack.
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Old 11-28-2006, 04:07 PM
ich Will Swedish Empire ich Will is offline
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Re: Praise and Criticism for TP on Wii

I have tried the Wii version, and it felt like a lot of fun. I quickly adapted.

I do feel that swinging the Wii remote to attack enemies is the only complaint I could come up with. I don't mind it at all, but in a way, I felt as if I wasn't in control, like with a normal controller. It sort of felt like the game was playing things for me, a bit.

Even at that, it's barely a complaint, and I only played for around 15 minutes. It was fun, but I couldn't really put a tag on it, felt like I didn't play it enough to be able do so.

I'm definately hoping to get the Wii version instead of the Gamecube version, but I can't really say the Gamecube version would be a step backwards. I can perfectly imagine playing it. Then again, I only played the Wii for what I think was 15 minutes, which felt more like 5 minutes. My mother said I played for 20 minutes, though.
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Old 11-28-2006, 04:36 PM
rsc390 rsc390 is offline
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Re: Praise and Criticism for TP on Wii

ivantubaman, i agree with you 100%.

The reviews were VERY misleading. I even remember IGN saying that the controls were perfect and that there was no going back. Yes, the control is superior to other zelda games, but how come none of the review mentioned this HUGE drawback. The Wii was advertised to be intuitive and original, and I had spread the joy of Wii throughout my school, and touched even some of the most hardcore Halo fans. When I actaully got the Wii, and found that your movement with the Wii-mote have ZERO effect on your sword moves, I was enraged, and also embarrassed because I had to explain to many friends what happened after all of my hyping.

My excuse thus far as been "the game was designed for the gamecube, and the wii control was really thrown in", but honestly, since Nintendo kept saying that Zelda was their trump card launch title, it seems like this result is more due to laziness. There obviously wasn't a fullblown effort if the Wii-mote is nothing but shakes (as a last resort they could've just borrowed from the Red Steel engine, which at least lets you distinguish direction and horizontal vs. vertical).

What keeps me alive right now is the amazing gameplay/story/puzzles, along with Shield Bashing and Spin Attack intuitiveness. If the Wii-mote was done as well as the Nunchuck, the game would be bordering perfection.

Also, what happened to the motion version of the Finishing Stab?!?!?!?!

I remember watching a video of a guy demoing TP, and he explained that if you thrust downard with the Nunchuck, Link performs the finishing stab, and he said "and THAT... feels REally nice...". At that point there was a chill of excitement going through me. I was shocked to learn the move and have the skeleton dude say "press A". It's criminal, I say!

These control issues not only hurt the game, but hurt my trust in Nintendo, especially after they went to such great lengths in advetrising the game.

-------------------------

Anyway, the point is, if how you move your Wii-mote has no effect on Link's sword swipes, how is shaking the controller any different from pressing a button?! If you try and tell me that's it's more intuitive, that's only true by an extremely tiny fraction of a percent.

Wii is supposed to be a revolution. Here's to hoping that Nintendo fills this beautiful machine's AMAZING potential.
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Old 11-28-2006, 07:52 PM
John John is a male Canada John is offline
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Re: Praise and Criticism for TP on Wii

My impressions on the controls:

To start off, I never really had an opinion either way on the GCN vs. Wii control debate. I'll also admit that when I picked up the Wii-mote and first tried to do sword combat I found myself at a disadvantage, I just couldn't find a 'sweet spot', where my movements would be picked up as sword swings but where I wasn't flailing all over the place like a maniac. About 30 to 60 minutes into the game I finally got the hang of it.

Would I call the sword controls better then tWW's? No, certainly not. It is fun, and it does allow you to pull off moves that would be difficult with default controls, rolling behind an enemy and then slashing, for example, would normally involve some fairly good timing and a button combo, now I have to push one button twice while shaking the Wii-mote. At the same time, it is rather less precise. I find Link making extra attacks at times, and wolf link can't seem to stop lunging after his foe is dead, but these are fairly minor issues.

Moving on, the use of the Wii-mote as a pointer is spot-on. You can whip out an item and pick off multiple enemies in seconds, rather then laboriously using an analog stick to slowly point at them all.

Special combat moves (Shield bashes, spin attacks, etc.) work much better with the Nunchuck. It allows you to throw out moves in quick succession, with sword slashes, spin attacks, finishing moves, and shield bashes thrown around like candy. Because of this (at least in part) combat is far more dynamic, you'll find you're rolling and jumping around, while throwing out all sorts of moves.

Which control system comes out on top? I'd say the Wii's without any question. There is a learning curve, although it isn't anywhere near as steep as the one for your first 3D game, but once you've figured it out you'll find that the controls in tWW aren't anywhere near as good as they seemed the first time you played it.
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Old 11-29-2006, 06:55 PM
Andy Andy is offline
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Re: Praise and Criticism for TP on Wii

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiek 84
but it is fun to use the nunchuck for spin attacks and shield bashing. People tend to complain about mixing up these manuevers, but that certainly falls on the player--not the game.
I completely agree with your post. Everyone usually always does (excluding the threads in which you are arguing something). I'm not going to waste time giving props and kudos to your post, it's been done to death. I agree with the things you said, except...

The above quote is the only thing I dissagree with. The nunchuk seriously needs some work. Forward thrusting and shaking it often conflict eachother. Whenever I try to shake it, it never ever seems to even get close to detecting it and I sit there taking damage. After scooting my chair three or four feet back, it finally detects it (I wasn't too close to the TV int he first place). Then I try to shield bash, and it doesn't work. I thrust forward, thrust forward,t hrust forward. Nothing happens. I continue to thrust without increasing intensity, and it detects the constant thrust thrust thrust as shaking the nunchuck and does a spin attack, which essentially fails against an enemy that requires a shield bash. The motions aren't really that different. Sheild bash is forward quick thrust. Spin attack is random quick shaking.

I will give an example of something similar to this. I got a new computer with a new keyboard. The spacebar sucks. Like terribly. You have to hit it twice as hard as a regular keyboard and square in the middle in order for it to work. Like the nunchuk, I have somewhat gotten used to this. I now naturally hit it harder and right in the middle. So I almost never have a problem (you might find an error with one of my spaces, or lack thereof). I start to think that there never was problem because it fades from my memory untill someone else uses the keyboard and they're like "what's wrong with your spacebar?" My point here is, the motion sensing part of the nunchuk sucks, but I can get used to its faults and eventually try different things that eliminate the problem. I already make less of these mistakes. But its moreso the game's fault, as the motions aren't that different, and my previous paragraph explains what happens to make the motions fail.

It's really annoying when the motion is detected wrong, but it doesn't really detract from the game. It wastses a second or two and I end up with a heart or two less. I just don't like it when people say the nunchuk controls are easy to use, because untill you get used to it, they aren't really.

I have one more snafu about the control scheme. When using it as a sword, not an aiming reticule, it's horribly inprecise. When you get into a fight, link often makes way the hell too many swings, and same with wolf link, as GDWarf stated. Once I noticed wolf link do three extra jumps. Three. After truly noticing this (I was too absorbed in the game to care really), I tried to actually do a legitimate regular wolf attack without massive extra attack chains afterward. I found it was really hard. I could easily do it with only two attacks, but trying to make the wolf only attack one time was incredibly hard. Now I usually just ditch that method and simply just target and press A or do the area thing using Midna with B. And Link's extra slashes may be a pain near edges, but it's never really bad enough to care about as he's almost never in a position where he has to swing a sword in a position that could be potentially dangerous (near ledges). I also find that slashing while running is incredibly easy and wonderful. Also horeseback slashing is easy too. Basically slashing that doesn't affect Link's movement is really easy and a great idea.
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Old 11-29-2006, 07:57 PM
TwilightPrince1 TwilightPrince1 is offline
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Re: Praise and Criticism for TP on Wii

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Which control system comes out on top? I'd say the Wii's without any question. There is a learning curve, although it isn't anywhere near as steep as the one for your first 3D game, but once you've figured it out you'll find that the controls in tWW aren't anywhere near as good as they seemed the first time you played it.
Nicely said...this is EXACTLY how I feel. I played tWW for five minutes yeserday, and after beating TP I can honeslty say that the Wii controls are in every way SUPERIOR to GC's controls.
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Old 11-29-2006, 08:47 PM
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Re: Praise and Criticism for TP on Wii

Having had to use Shield bashes for the first time in an actual fight, I do find them very hard to pull off correctly. You have to be careful that you're moving it exactly forward, which is often not towards the TV, so you tend to have to watch your hand to make sure it's going the right way. Since you don't use it often you really can't get used to it without spending time in an empty space Z-targeting nothing in particular. However, I've only really used it for convenience, so it's not a huge issue.
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Old 11-29-2006, 09:13 PM
zelda may cry United_States zelda may cry is offline
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Re: Praise and Criticism for TP on Wii

my only criticisem is the fact that any time you pick up rupees in a new room, it stops everything to explain, ""You got a Blue Rupee. (5 rupees)" so annoying. I know how much each rupee is worth! you don't have to tell me how to "Z-Target" but you have to bash it over my head that a Blue rupee is 5, a yellow rupee is 10, a red rupee is 20, a purple rupee is 50, and an orange rupee is 100! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 11-29-2006, 09:22 PM
Andy Andy is offline
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Re: Praise and Criticism for TP on Wii

Hey, how else were they supposed to have something that annoys the hell out of you if there isn't a fairy (well, there is but it's really just a cursor, and I think it fills Navi's place in the subject of annoying). That new fairy is so damn annoying. I don't care if it lets you know your Wii remote is pointed at the screen. I often find that it says I'm not pointed at the screen even when I am. It's like they don't even care about the Wii remote, they have to have the fairy on the screen and working. Yes, my remote is pointed at the screen thankyouverymuch... The fairy got stuck on the side, so what! let me shoot!

And GDWarf, often times you're required to shield attack. Like, when fighting another enemy who blocks your every move and is covered from behind (i.e. the miniboss in the Temple of Time, miniboss in the Goron Mines, both require shield bashing).
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Old 11-29-2006, 09:27 PM
TwilightPrince1 TwilightPrince1 is offline
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Re: Praise and Criticism for TP on Wii

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Originally Posted by Samus27 View Post
Hey, how else were they supposed to have something that annoys the hell out of you if there isn't a fairy (well, there is but it's really just a cursor, and I think it fills Navi's place in the subject of annoying). That new fairy is so damn annoying. I don't care if it lets you know your Wii remote is pointed at the screen. I often find that it says I'm not pointed at the screen even when I am. It's like they don't even care about the Wii remote, they have to have the fairy on the screen and working. Yes, my remote is pointed at the screen thankyouverymuch... The fairy got stuck on the side, so what! let me shoot!

And GDWarf, often times you're required to shield attack. Like, when fighting another enemy who blocks your every move and is covered from behind (i.e. the miniboss in the Temple of Time, miniboss in the Goron Mines, both require shield bashing).
I was really concerned about the fairy cursor when I first saw it, but after playing the game for over 70 hours I never even noticed it was there!
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Old 11-29-2006, 09:38 PM
Bill Bill is a male United States Bill is offline
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Re: Praise and Criticism for TP on Wii

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Originally Posted by Samus27 View Post
Hey, how else were they supposed to have something that annoys the hell out of you if there isn't a fairy (well, there is but it's really just a cursor, and I think it fills Navi's place in the subject of annoying). That new fairy is so damn annoying. I don't care if it lets you know your Wii remote is pointed at the screen. I often find that it says I'm not pointed at the screen even when I am. It's like they don't even care about the Wii remote, they have to have the fairy on the screen and working. Yes, my remote is pointed at the screen thankyouverymuch... The fairy got stuck on the side, so what! let me shoot!
You're insane. Never has the game told me to point the Wiimote at the screen if the fairy is visible. And never has the fairy been annoying in the least. This has got to be the least valid criticism of the game I've ever seen (and you're not alone). I remember somebody from Gamespot mentioning it. Of course he also complained about the "annoying" monkeys and whined about a lot of other insignificant crap, so his opinion was easy to disregard.

If anything, I found the fairy fun to play around with while climbing latters or otherwise idling.

To each his own I suppose.
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