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  #21 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 05-28-2012, 09:46 AM
kamfira United Kingdom kamfira is offline
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Re: Histo-Cultural Influences on The Legend of Zelda

This is very good! A few more of my own points I suppose...



This picture of the castle town centre is obviously influenced in a Graeco-Roman fashion with those porticos.

In addition, note the Temple of Time as well:


This is clearly inspired by the Roman Pantheon, as the picture explains. In this room we also fight this guy:

Oh, hello there Achilles!

I doubt the darknut is meant to be Achilles himself, but the darknut is reminiscent of traditional Graeco-Roman military armour, no?

In fact, the whole of the Past-Temple of Time in TP is heavily influenced by Graeco-Roman architecture...


Note the wall carvings, they were very common in the classical period. They appear throughout the dungeon.
In fact, the Temple of Time even in OoT has some semblance to a Hellenistic temple:

Throughout OoT we see a lot of references. The Forest Temple is particuarly good:

Obviously this is a pediment, a feature of classical architecture. Note also the artwork for the temple too:

Also the place has a rotunda, another feature of classical architecture:

Furthermore, the ferry in the Shadow Temple, that is distinctly reminiscent of the River Styx. See the article here for more information: Styx - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and in particular Charon, who would ferry those to the underworld: Charon (mythology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Playing the Wind Waker, I also thought of the Tower of the Gods as being a little like the Lighthouse of Alexandria:


Not exactly, I grant you, but it's a long shot.


Finally, hey, what about this too?

Not all victims of crucifixion were crucified on a Latin Cross (the one Jesus is pictured as dying on) and it is fair to say that this type potentially could have been more common....a little gruesome eh? Nice thought for you to finish on...

I've got lots of ideas but probably too many for a single post! In my opinion I see Hyrule as being a little like Italy and the Roman Empire...but then I am a classics geek...
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Old 05-28-2012, 10:31 AM
Redthir Redthir is offline
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Re: Histo-Cultural Influences on The Legend of Zelda

Quote:
Originally Posted by kamfira View Post
This is very good! A few more of my own points I suppose...



This picture of the castle town centre is obviously influenced in a Graeco-Roman fashion with those porticos.

In addition, note the Temple of Time as well:


This is clearly inspired by the Roman Pantheon, as the picture explains. In this room we also fight this guy:

Oh, hello there Achilles!

I doubt the darknut is meant to be Achilles himself, but the darknut is reminiscent of traditional Graeco-Roman military armour, no?

In fact, the whole of the Past-Temple of Time in TP is heavily influenced by Graeco-Roman architecture...


Note the wall carvings, they were very common in the classical period. They appear throughout the dungeon.
In fact, the Temple of Time even in OoT has some semblance to a Hellenistic temple:

Throughout OoT we see a lot of references. The Forest Temple is particuarly good:

Obviously this is a pediment, a feature of classical architecture. Note also the artwork for the temple too:

Also the place has a rotunda, another feature of classical architecture:

Furthermore, the ferry in the Shadow Temple, that is distinctly reminiscent of the River Styx. See the article here for more information: Styx - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and in particular Charon, who would ferry those to the underworld: Charon (mythology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Playing the Wind Waker, I also thought of the Tower of the Gods as being a little like the Lighthouse of Alexandria:


Not exactly, I grant you, but it's a long shot.


Finally, hey, what about this too?

Not all victims of crucifixion were crucified on a Latin Cross (the one Jesus is pictured as dying on) and it is fair to say that this type potentially could have been more common....a little gruesome eh? Nice thought for you to finish on...

I've got lots of ideas but probably too many for a single post! In my opinion I see Hyrule as being a little like Italy and the Roman Empire...but then I am a classics geek...
Certainly Hylian Hyrule. Ever since I've started working on a Zelda themed story called Rising from the Shadows, I found myself thinking more and more that Hylians are the Italians of Hyrule. They are by far the wealthiest, and I always imagine a distinctly romantic culture very much like we associate with Italians nowadays. It's very much a culture of comfort - and Hylians seem to be considerably more comfortable than most other races. One of Verdi's operas would not be out of place at all. And the Shadow Temple is pretty much the result of reading too much Dante's Inferno. Those people talking to you on the walls might as well be saying "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here."
Last Edited by Redthir; 05-28-2012 at 10:33 AM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-06-2012, 05:31 AM
kamfira United Kingdom kamfira is offline
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Re: Histo-Cultural Influences on The Legend of Zelda

What's actually interesting about your point to do with Dante's Inferno is that as well, the Inferno was based/ancient fanfction of Book 6 of the Aeneid, which is the great Latin Epic about the foundation of Rome. In fact, the Aeneid; a man who is helped by a Goddess of Love and fights a bucket load of battles to found his country/city. I doubt SS is actually influenced but I like the inadvertent similarity.
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Old 06-06-2012, 05:49 AM
Castiel Castiel is a male United Kingdom Castiel is offline
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Re: Histo-Cultural Influences on The Legend of Zelda

Wow, these references are wonderful! Have you touched upon the obvious Far-Eastern Architecture in the Earth Temple/Fire Sanctuary? (Hence the elephant statues, the giant dragon whose eye falls out. Oh, and those archways outside the temple.)
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Old 06-07-2012, 07:52 AM
kamfira United Kingdom kamfira is offline
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Re: Histo-Cultural Influences on The Legend of Zelda

It would be good to have a look at the architecture, but I'm no expert, sadly! I know my classics and I know my western history reasonably well, but far east is not an area I'd be able to talk about!
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Old 06-07-2012, 11:17 AM
Iron Fist Iron Fist is a male Mauritius Iron Fist is offline
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Re: Histo-Cultural Influences on The Legend of Zelda

This is one awesome thread! Cool to know you realised that SS fire temple looks like hindu temples too.

I realised that the fire temple used a lot of reference from indian temples and Kovils. The elephants, and also the very colourful place lookes like a tamil temple to me. And in some places there were demon figures which seemed like Chinese 'trolls'. I have seen some similar figures in pagodas.
As for the mining facility below the desert, I noticed some chinese and also a bit of muslim culture references there. On some walls, mostly.
I have reached in the Ancient Cistern in the game. I will probably complete it during holidays. The huge statue and architecture looks Thai in that dungeon.

I really like the way you described all these details and got so many references in this thread. Everything you said makes perfect sense!

---------- Post added at 08:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:11 PM ----------

Oh, and I have 2 'er hu' at home. This 2-string instrument is really hard to play. Harder than violin at least. My sister is actually going to play with that instrument for music day this year.
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Old 06-16-2012, 04:20 PM
NCF NCF is offline
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Re: Histo-Cultural Influences on The Legend of Zelda

Quote:
Originally Posted by kamfira View Post
This picture of the castle town centre is obviously influenced in a Graeco-Roman fashion with those porticos.
Yes, thanks for bringing this up, mate. I had wanted to include something on Hyrule Castle town from Twilight Princess since my reply to your first post in this thread. Now I'd consider those two porticoes more like two halves a single colonnade. Fountains at the centers of such colonnades are common elements [originally civil engineering and later ornamental] of Ancient Roman and Roman-influenced market squares or public piazze. Here, for example, is an image of such a construction at the ruins of the great East Roman city of Gerasa located in the modern day city of Jaresh, Jordan.



This style is of course preserved in even grander scale in Saint Peter's Square at the Papal Basilica of Saint Peter, at the very heart of the Vatican.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kamfira View Post
this room we also fight this guy:
To me the Darknut represents an odd mix. The shape of the shield surely resembles the round aspis carried by Greek hoplites, and the helmet definitely has that Phrygian crest. On the other hand, the smaller sword/claymore tucked behind the shield appears as medieval in style as the [very medieval] jousting visor on the helmet, which is certainly an odd choice for a warrior without a mount. The large sword has a blade of unusual shape the likes of which I've only found in the designs of certain African swords such as these:

The book of the sword - Richard Francis Burton (Sir.) - Google Books

War Sword, Ilwoon, Bushoong, Congo/Zaire

Quote:
Originally Posted by kamfira View Post
In fact, the whole of the Past-Temple of Time in TP is heavily influenced by Graeco-Roman architecture...
I think the classical influences that you are spotting are actually indirect. That is, I believe much of the architecture in Twilight Princess's Temple of Time is modeled after Medieval Gothic and Romanesque styles, the former of which developed from the later, which was itself derived from original Ancient Roman styles. Even simply the floorplan of the Temple of Time is similar to those of Medieval cathedrals, but I can't speak for any of the dungeon beyond the ethereal stair to the central stained glass window.

I do however recall at least one more uniquely ancient Roman amphitheatre-like structure in the forest of the Sacred Grove, or at least the ruins of a very wide and round stone structure. I'd love to receive any insight on this that you might have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kamfira View Post
Obviously this is a pediment, a feature of classical architecture. Note also the artwork for the temple too:
And an interesting entablature too, through the columns look rather square and modern. Now that bright green building obscured in the background of the illustration looks just like a classical columned Greek temple [peripteros]. Can we find any other angles on that or on the rotunda?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kamfira View Post
http://www.flyingomelette.com/odditi...ss-shadow2.jpg
Not all victims of crucifixion were crucified on a Latin Cross (the one Jesus is pictured as dying on) and it is fair to say that this type potentially could have been more common....a little gruesome eh? Nice thought for you to finish on...
In heraldry, the diagonal cross is known as a saltire or as Saint Andrew's Cross, after the eponymous apostle became the most well known of all matyrs crucified on the crux decussata. The colors and the chains certainly confirm that the image is intended to be a macabre one, and although not necessarily religious, it's a surprising inclusion nonetheless.

Obiter dictum, I've removed the image tags because the site seems to block hotlinking. By opening the link in a new window, readers of this post will be able to view the image on its host site.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ningan the Lone Ninja View Post
Wow, these references are wonderful! Have you touched upon the obvious Far-Eastern Architecture in the Earth Temple/Fire Sanctuary? (Hence the elephant statues, the giant dragon whose eye falls out. Oh, and those archways outside the temple.)
Thanks! I have at considerable length; have you since found my discussion of the Indian, Thai, and Chinese influences in the dungeons on the prior page? I've concluded the eyeball statues represent humanoid demons of a Hindu style but Eastern depiction and the elephants equally Indic! The serpentine dragon imagery however is definitely Far East Asian by earliest origin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Fist View Post
This is one awesome thread! Cool to know you realised that SS fire temple looks like hindu temples too.

I realised that the fire temple used a lot of reference from indian temples and Kovils. The elephants, and also the very colourful place lookes like a tamil temple to me. And in some places there were demon figures which seemed like Chinese 'trolls'. I have seen some similar figures in pagodas.
As for the mining facility below the desert, I noticed some chinese and also a bit of muslim culture references there. On some walls, mostly.
While I most recently likened the pagoda-like entrance of the Earth Temple to the rock-cut architecture at China's Mogao Caves, I agree that it resembles kovil construction as well (often rock-cut themselves, though I haven't seen any carved into a cliff face). See above for the demon figures which keep coming up. In regard to the walls in the mining facility, please do elaborate. My memory of that segment of the game is considerably weaker. Thank you for your comments and compliments!
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  #28 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-18-2012, 06:11 AM
kamfira United Kingdom kamfira is offline
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Re: Histo-Cultural Influences on The Legend of Zelda

Good responses come to those who wait, so thank you! It's so refreshing to engage in intelligent conversation; I'm the British equivalent a history and classics major so this is combining two things I love!

Thankyou for sourcing those pictures of Gerasa and the Vatican, it helps validate my point quite significantly.

I agree with your post about the Darknut being an amalgamation of different sources although I think the Graeco-Roman are most significant.

I would not know enough about that period of Medieval Architecture to be able to discusswith you completely re the TP Temple of Time, but I assume you to be correct, especially with regards to the main Temple. The rest of the dungeon however in my opinion finds itself with greater derivations from original Roman architecture. I don't have the game in front of me but I have found my official Nintendo guide which has several small (albeit limited) screenshots of the game. The reliefs, which are in a very traditional Ancient Rome style surround the whole Temple and appear in nearly every room. Observe this, for example:



Temple of Time - Zelda: Twilight Princess Wiki Guide - IGN

Here is an IGN guide that may help with a few small and limited photos. I assume there would be some video guides on youtube as well if you're still interested.

Give me until Thursday to get on about the Sacred Grove location you talk about. I'm interested by what you're meaning and on Thursday I plan on getting the Wii out and having a look. I'm a bit bogged down by exams but my last one is Thursday, so watch this space! I believe you're talking about the arena where you face Skull Kid? But I could be wrong. As I said, I will go and have a look and come back to you

Ah the rotunda seems to have disappeared;
Here's hoping this works!

Couldn't find a better image of the pediment (will go and have a look on Thursday on the actual game, again) but in my travels I did find this; Those columns certainly remind me of the ruins you find in say the Forum Magnum of Rome.

Just came across this as well;


That statue looks like he's wearing a toga...


Anyway, I'd like to hear your opinion of the Snow Peak Ruins...they've always fascinated me; there seems to be a mix of gothic/baroque styles in there along with some other influences.
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  #29 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-05-2012, 09:00 PM
NCF NCF is offline
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Re: Histo-Cultural Influences on The Legend of Zelda

And now it again is you who have waited. It's funny that you're using an example of twice or even thrice-removed Romanesque style to relate a once or perhaps twice-removed Roman style, Medieval Gothic, to its Ancient Roman roots. The Albert Memorial is clearly an example of Gothic revivalism, having been built in the late twentieth century, and for this reason may be still further from the traditional conventions of the ancient styles.

Of all the images in the walkthrough, this one stands out to me most.



First I recall the pagan imagery associated with weighing scales, from the Roman Justitia and Greek equivalent Dike Astraea - so named for her creation as constellations Virgo and Libra - to the Egyptian Maat (another lawful, astral goddess) who so famously presides over Anubis's weighing of the human heart as described in the Book of the Dead. If I recall correctly, the scales in the game present a puzzle related to weighing totem objects against Link's own weight, specifically for the purpose of platforming necessary to proceed deeper into the dungeon, like moving unto the next life perhaps?



Next I notice the treelike figure which at first seems to be concurrent with the body of the weighing scale but actually appear as a separate design mounted to the wall behind. The design of the odd branches remind me of a modern hanukkiah, an nine-branched ceremonial candelabrum modeled after an older and more sacred ornament: the menorah of the biblical tabernacle and later the Temple at Jerusalem.



Third, the scales clearly bear the insignia also emblazoned on the Light Medallion.



And yes, the sacred grove is the site of the Skull Kid confrontation. Do tell me what you think once you've had the chance.

Lastly, I agree that the Snowpeak Ruins exhibit a few styles that are more modern. At the very least the structure appears like a stone castle of some Medieval styling with an interior refit with wood trim. I don't recall any real specific references other than the paintings, most of which seem to depict locations visited earlier in the game from Ordon Village (first) to Hyrule Castle (last, sort of). There are four large paintings propped against the wall of the very first room - back right corner for Gamecube and back left for Wii - the front two of which appear to depict the Arbiter's Grounds and the door to the Master Sword within the Temple of Time. The other two behind the first pair are barely visible. I'd be very happy to find a map manipulation revealing their images, for I have read (from a rather unreliable source, however) that one of these paintings depicts the R2-D2 of galactic fame. Granted, the fact that the statement did not go so far as to acknowledge the number of paintings or the images that might correspond to each leads me to believe this observation is flawed.
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