What the hell do people have against Twilight Princess?

I found Twilight Princess a bit nostalgic. I like it.

Originally Posted by MYK1217

This game was supposed to be for the hardcore fans;

The new controls and the entire first hour of the game say otherwise.

Originally Posted by MYK1217

It was not at all challenging compared to the N64 Zelda games (I'm not going to compare difficulty with the 2D games).

I just finished OoT's Forest Temple yesterday after freeing Epona and stuff. The only reason the earlier 3D games are difficult is because the controls are as clunky as all hell and it's difficult to fight because of them. The Master Sword in OoT is too damn small, so even when Z-Targeting, your attacks miss way more often than they should. That's not difficulty or a "challenge," that's poor aging. I also found MM to be very easy. The only notable exceptions were the Gyorg battle and some of the minigames. And the Goron mini-dungeon on the moon.

Originally Posted by MYK1217

Along with the rarity of Link taking serious damage in TP was the frequency of heart support. The game was too generous. I remember in the N64 Zelda games where I always find myself praying for hearts when cutting down bushes, defeating enemies, breaking rocks/pots, etc. In TP, they were all over the place.

Lack of enough health isn't difficulty, it's poor game design.

Originally Posted by MYK1217

That was one whole challenge of Zelda that was basically completely eliminated from this game.

No, the whole challenge of a Zelda game are the control limitations. Every Zelda game before TP owes its difficulty to clunky or impractical controls. In LoZ, you could only stab directly in front of you, AoL is a sidescroller, nuff said, OoT has the control problems I mentioned above, MM was slightly better with this and I found it to be easier, and WW's controls were pretty good, so it wasn't an issue. ALTTP is the only notable exception, because it has far better controls and gameplay than LoZ despite the fact that it's more difficult.

Originally Posted by MYK1217

Also, as stated many many times, very much of a lack of creativity involved with the game.

Cough* wolf form * cough.

Every one keeps saying twilight princess had no color! IT WAS SUPPOSED TO, IT WAS IN THE TWILIGHT ZONE YOU DIP#$^@S!
Also you should open another poll asked what everyone has against cartoon link! wind waker was awesome!

I'll buy that clunky controls is what made the older Zelda games difficult, and I'm not asking for that. I just want alittle more of a challenge with the enemies and bosses. The enemies rarely pose a threat to you. Aside from Ganondorf on horseback, none of the boss battles were a bit challenging.

If the game was a satifying challenge for you, fine, great! But it wasn't for me.

Also, it's laughable how you try to prove this game "creative" by saying "Uhh, you get to be a wolf." Give me a break. There was hardly anything unique to the series other than the wolf transformation. Sure, there were some neats enhancements, like the sword skills, sword use on horseback, and the double hookshot, but was there really anything that new?

It was same same tired format! You're in Hyrule. You play through three temples, get the Master Sword and play a few more temples. Ganondorf is there. Zoras are there. Gorons are there. It was just another Zelda game.

Also, don't talk to me about "staples" in the Zelda series that are must-haves. Majora's Mask didn't need all of those "staples" and it was an amazing game.

Again, I still enjoyed this game. I just didn't feel like it was a necessary addition to the series.

MM didn't follow Zelda staples, but it also had a ton of design goofs that most Zeldas don't have.

Originally Posted by Link92

Cough* wolf form * cough.

FOR GOD'S SAKE, Wolf Form wasn't creative.

It was a new skin with a couple of rehashed moves stuck on. If you ask me, more creativity went into making the moves look new rather then actually designing them.

Originally Posted by MYK1217

I'll buy that clunky controls is what made the older Zelda games difficult, and I'm not asking for that. I just want alittle more of a challenge with the enemies and bosses. The enemies rarely pose a threat to you. Aside from Ganondorf on horseback, none of the boss battles were a bit challenging.

If the game was a satifying challenge for you, fine, great! But it wasn't for me.

Also, it's laughable how you try to prove this game "creative" by saying "Uhh, you get to be a wolf." Give me a break. There was hardly anything unique to the series other than the wolf transformation. Sure, there were some neats enhancements, like the sword skills, sword use on horseback, and the double hookshot, but was there really anything that new?

It was same same tired format! You're in Hyrule. You play through three temples, get the Master Sword and play a few more temples. Ganondorf is there. Zoras are there. Gorons are there. It was just another Zelda game.

Also, don't talk to me about "staples" in the Zelda series that are must-haves. Majora's Mask didn't need all of those "staples" and it was an amazing game.

Again, I still enjoyed this game. I just didn't feel like it was a necessary addition to the series.

If you hate TP for rehashing the Zelda format then you must hate OoT as well. After all, OoT copied almost everything format-wise from Alttp. Just saying....

Originally Posted by MYK1217

I'll buy that clunky controls is what made the older Zelda games difficult, and I'm not asking for that. I just want alittle more of a challenge with the enemies and bosses. The enemies rarely pose a threat to you. Aside from Ganondorf on horseback, none of the boss battles were a bit challenging.

I found Darkhammer to be very challenging. And while not a boss battle, I've never had more difficulty in any Zelda game than I had fighting four Darknuts at once in the Cave of Ordeals.

Originally Posted by MYK1217

If the game was a satifying challenge for you, fine, great! But it wasn't for me.

It wasn't a satisfying challenge for me, either, except for the parts I just mentioned and the Ganondorf horseback battle. I merely said it's kind of dumb to complain about the difficulty when no 3D Zelda game before it has been very difficult.

Originally Posted by MYK1217

Also, it's laughable how you try to prove this game "creative" by saying "Uhh, you get to be a wolf." Give me a break. There was hardly anything unique to the series other than the wolf transformation.

Oh, no. You did not just say "other than." I really hate when people say "other than" or "aside from" on these forums. It just shows you're completely ignoring a major point for the convenience of your own argument.

Originally Posted by MYK1217

Sure, there were some neats enhancements, like the sword skills, sword use on horseback, and the double hookshot, but was there really anything that new?

It doesn't have to be new. Innovation is not what makes a game great, it's the gameplay. And in relation to gameplay and exploration, TP delivers far more than any 3D game before it, except maybe for Wind Waker, depending on your opinion of sailing and the Great Sea in general.

Originally Posted by MYK1217

It was same same tired format! You're in Hyrule.

Duh. It's a Zelda game. Seriously, how the hell is this a flaw? Does the fact that you're in Hyrule affect how the game is played at all? No, it doesn't. Would Majora's Mask be any less enjoyable if it took place in Hyrule instead of Termina but kept all the unique characters? No, it wouldn't. Even if TP takes place in Hyrule, it looks totally different from any way we've seen it before.

Originally Posted by MYK1217

You play through three temples, get the Master Sword and play a few more temples.

The way this is handled in TP is totally different. The three temples you play through in the beginning have nothing to do with unlocking the Master Sword, and the final 5 dungeons have nothing to do with Sages. Here's the basic premise. Find 3 items because an imp tells you to and you have to save your friends. Get the Master Sword to save yourself because Zelda is gone and you're the only hope left for Hyrule. Zant tried to turn you into a wolf and stole your helmet. Go kick his ass and then deal with his daddy.

Originally Posted by MYK1217

Ganondorf is there. Zoras are there. Gorons are there. It was just another Zelda game.

Of course it was a Zelda game. That's a flaw? Are Zelda games not supposed to be Zelda games? If so, then what the hell are they supposed to be?

Originally Posted by MYK1217

Also, don't talk to me about "staples" in the Zelda series that are must-haves. Majora's Mask didn't need all of those "staples" and it was an amazing game.

I was under the impression that Majora's Mask not only had Zora's, but Gorons as well. Not to mention the fact that it reused almost all of OoT's characters.

Originally Posted by Double A

FOR GOD'S SAKE, Wolf Form wasn't creative.

Says you.

Originally Posted by Double A

It was a new skin with a couple of rehashed moves stuck on.

That's what a transformation is, genius. And I fail to see how wolf form's moves were rehashed. Name one thing in any previous game that was like digging and the Dark Energy Attack. And don't say "Megaton hammer" because digging isn't a weapon, and don't say "Spin attack" because the Dark Energy attack isn't even remotely like any spin attack.

Originally Posted by Double A

If you ask me, more creativity went into making the moves look new rather then actually designing them.

Then you'd be dead wrong, as I explained above.

Originally Posted by GoronWarrior25

If you hate TP for rehashing the Zelda format then you must hate OoT as well. After all, OoT copied almost everything format-wise from Alttp. Just saying....

Ohoho, the old stand by.

I'll give you an F. Better luck next time.

Originally Posted by Alex

Ohoho, the old stand by.

I'll give you an F. Better luck next time.

But it makes sense. Both Oot and TP are rehashes of an old format. Why should that be a disadvantage for one game but not the other?

Originally Posted by GoronWarrior25

But it makes sense. Both Oot and TP are rehashes of an old format. Why should that be a disadvantage for one game but not the other?

OoT was the third game of that format. TP was about 6th or 7th -depending on which games you include as 'that format' After so many rehashings, things grow a little stale.

I'd say that these games follow the same basic format:
ALttP, LA OoT, TWW, TMC, and then TP
A case could be made for LA, MM, and the Oracles, but I feel they had their qualities that set them in a variation of the standard format.

Originally Posted by Talhoffer

OoT was the third game of that format. TP was about 6th or 7th -depending on which games you include as 'that format' After so many rehashings, things grow a little stale.

I'd say that these games follow the same basic format:
ALttP, LA OoT, TWW, TMC, and then TP
A case could be made for LA, MM, and the Oracles, but I feel they had their qualities that set them in a variation of the standard format.

Yeah, I get what you're saying, but ignoring the fact that TP is like the seventh game with that format, and just judging Oot and TP as standalone games, you can't bash one of them for something when the other commits the same crime. For instance, say a person is completely new to Zelda. If he plays Alttp first, and then TP and OoT, he can't complain that TP is a copycat while Oot isn't, cause they both are of Alttp.

What I'm trying to say is that when using your logic, you aren't basing a game as an individual, you are using past games to influence whether you like it or not.

For the record, I too am getting tired of the Zelda format that keeps getting repeated. But I'm not going to hate just TP because of that, I'm going blame the series as a whole for not being original. If you are going to blame TP for being unorginal, blame OoT, WW, TMC, and any other game that is guilty of copying Alttp's format too. The fact that a person who doesn't know Zelda well may like TP, but then play Oot and then hate it for being similar to TP, proves that you can't single out just one game for something that they all have.

I hope I make a least a little sense to you. I tried explaining the best I could, but its kind of hard.

Originally Posted by Link92

Says you.

Yup.

Originally Posted by Link92

That's what a transformation is, genius. And I fail to see how wolf form's moves were rehashed. Name one thing in any previous game that was like digging and the Dark Energy Attack. And don't say "Megaton hammer" because digging isn't a weapon, and don't say "Spin attack" because the Dark Energy attack isn't even remotely like any spin attack.

Yea, that's what a transformation is. However, that doesn't instantly make it creative.

"Digging"? Wasn't there a shovel in ALttP?

"Dark Energy Attack not like any spin attack"? Says you. As far as I'm concerned, it's just a long-range Spinattack in a different skin.

Originally Posted by Link92

Then you'd be dead wrong, as I explained above.

Not really...

Originally Posted by GoronWarrior25

If you hate TP for rehashing the Zelda format then you must hate OoT as well. After all, OoT copied almost everything format-wise from Alttp. Just saying....

I NEVER SAID I HATED TWILIGHT PRINCESS. This is called NITPICKING. Just because someone criticizes something doesn't mean tbhey hate it. I liked Twilight Princess. I just didn't like it as much as I thought I would.

I didn't "hate" Twilight Princess; I was highly disappointed with it. This game was supposed to be for the hardcore fans; therefore, I expected it to be challenging. It was not at all challenging compared to the N64 Zelda games (I'm not going to compare difficulty with the 2D games).

As quoted from before. And in the text you quoted, I freaking said that i ENJOYED Twilight Princess.

What are people's problems here? Are we not allowed to have our own opinions unless we're complete bowing down to every game? I adore the Zelda series. That doesn't mean I don't find flaws here and there.

Originally Posted by Double A

"Dark Energy Attack not like any spin attack"? Says you. As far as I'm concerned, it's just a long-range Spinattack in a different skin.

It seems you learned nothing from our previous discussions. That's too bad.

But no, the force attack is not like the spin attack at all. You can compare to the spin attack the wolf does have. They're completely different. The only thing they have in common is the button.

Originally Posted by Abyss Master

It seems you learned nothing from our previous discussions. That's too bad.

But no, the force attack is not like the spin attack at all. You can compare to the spin attack the wolf does have. They're completely different. The only thing they have in common is the button.

Hold attack button.
Power charges up.
Get close to group of enemies
Release attack button.
Enemies within specific radius are hurt for more than regular attack damage.

The only differences are that you can get enemies a foot or so outside the area of effect with the orange globs and that it's an instant kill instead of just ludicrously powerful.

Originally Posted by Abyss Master

It seems you learned nothing from our previous discussions. That's too bad.

But no, the force attack is not like the spin attack at all. You can compare to the spin attack the wolf does have. They're completely different. The only thing they have in common is the button.

You hold a button, release it, and Link attacks all enemies within a circular range. Yup, totally dissimilar. Plus, you could do the Twilight Beast fights with the Spinattack.

Going back a few posts, do you really expect me to believe that the "force attack" is a sign of creativity?

Originally Posted by Mandrag

Hold attack button.
Power charges up.
Get close to group of enemies
Release attack button.
Enemies within specific radius are hurt for more than regular attack damage.

The only differences are that you can get enemies a foot or so outside the area of effect with the orange globs and that it's an instant kill instead of just ludicrously powerful.

I'm sorry, but I didn't realize that a spin attack had to be specifically directed to ensure that it hits all its targets without interruption. Which would completely change how you use the spin attack, if every strike happens one after another, and not all at the same time.

Originally Posted by Double A

You hold a button, release it, and Link attacks all enemies within a circular range. Yup, totally dissimilar. Plus, you could do the Twilight Beast fights with the Spinattack.

Going back a few posts, do you really expect me to believe that the "force attack" is a sign of creativity?

Oh right, I forgot, the reason why it's so stupid to argue with you is because you keep simplifying everything to prove a point. A "circular range" could very well be applied to an item like Din's Fire, which has no similarity whatsoever to a spin attack (outside of depleting the magic meter). Attacking enemies within a certain range is how an attack works (and the force attack is the only attack that specifically shows you what enemies are in range). In other words, they're different. Both in function, and appearance.

The only thing that's similar is the execution.

So let us take your logic to the next level, shall we?

In OoT, there are two items that are completely different, used in entirely different ways, but we shall now use your logic to make them similar. Nevermind that they have aspects that completely differentiate them from each other, that's irrelevant! We shall only look at the similarities, for only they are relevant to my/your argument.

The items I shall use are the boomerang and the hookshot. I'll show you how it works:

These two items are assigned to C-buttons. You use C-buttons to use these items, ergo there's a similarity. You have to push a button and then release that button to use these items. They are both ranged items that you use to reach targets that are usually out of reach. These items can be used to bring objects to you. These two items can be used to stun enemies.

Are they the same? Not one bit.

So zip it.

Originally Posted by Abyss Master

I'm sorry, but I didn't realize that a spin attack had to be specifically directed to ensure that it hits all its targets without interruption. Which would completely change how you use the spin attack, if every strike happens one after another, and not all at the same time.

I was interrupted before using it on several occasions, getting hit before it was properly charged and positioned, just as I used to with the Spin Attack in Ocarina of Time back when I was younger and had trouble with quick spins.

Originally Posted by Abyss Master

Oh right, I forgot, the reason why it's so stupid to argue with you is because you keep simplifying everything to prove a point. A "circular range" could very well be applied to an item like Din's Fire, which has no similarity whatsoever to a spin attack (outside of depleting the magic meter). Attacking enemies within a certain range is how an attack works (and the force attack is the only attack that specifically shows you what enemies are in range). In other words, they're different. Both in function, and appearance.

The only thing that's similar is the execution.

So let us take your logic to the next level, shall we?

In OoT, there are two items that are completely different, used in entirely different ways, but we shall now use your logic to make them similar. Nevermind that they have aspects that completely differentiate them from each other, that's irrelevant! We shall only look at the similarities, for only they are relevant to my/your argument.

The items I shall use are the boomerang and the hookshot. I'll show you how it works:

These two items are assigned to C-buttons. You use C-buttons to use these items, ergo there's a similarity. You have to push a button and then release that button to use these items. They are both ranged items that you use to reach targets that are usually out of reach. These items can be used to bring objects to you. These two items can be used to stun enemies.

Are they the same? Not one bit.

So zip it.

So his comparing Spin Attack to what he called "Force Attack" is equivalent to comparing the Boomerang to the Hookshot? This is hardly an apt comparison on your part.
Spin Attack to Force Attack is more like comparing the Boomerang and the Zora fin-throw. It looks different, it moves different, it's stronger, and yet it's used almost exactly the same.

Originally Posted by Mandrag

I was interrupted before using it on several occasions, getting hit before it was properly charged and positioned, just as I used to with the Spin Attack in Ocarina of Time back when I was younger and had trouble with quick spins.

Were you ever interrupted in the execution of the attack itself?

How you are interrupted is hardly relevant anyways.

So his comparing Spin Attack to what he called "Force Attack" is equivalent to comparing the Boomerang to the Hookshot? This is hardly an apt comparison on your part.

It's actually perfectly justified.

Spin Attack to Force Attack is more like comparing the Boomerang and the Zora fin-throw.

Not really.

It looks different, it moves different, it's stronger, and yet it's used almost exactly the same.

The boomerang and the hookshot are both used for similar things, but they are also used in different ways, much like the force attack and spin attack. Making a comparison like the boomerang and the Zora fin would be like comparing Link's human form for spin attack to his wolf form's spin attack.

The boomerang and the hookshot are, in some aspects, similar. If you only look at these similarities, you would probably manage to fool yourself into believing that they are identical items. Nonetheless, the hookshot is used in a different way from the boomerang, whereas the Zora fins are not.

It's basically seeing what you want to see, and ignore the rest.