What the hell do people have against Twilight Princess?

Originally Posted by Jeff

Would've looked much better, and shown greater effort by the developers to actually add some creativity.

Don't see the problem. Zelda frequently uses the same characters, and since MM ran on OoT's engine, why make new models?

Because it looks uninspired. Since it, well, is. No creativity involved, no effort in the labor that is development.

According to the Zelda fans, it would be a "no soul" situation.

Originally Posted by Jeff

Because it looks uninspired. Since it, well, is. No creativity involved, no effort in the labor that is development.

According to the Zelda fans, it would be a "no soul" situation.

Guess it's a good thing we aren't idiots who judge games solely on their visual presentation.

Also, anyone who says Majora's Mask has "no soul" is on my list of people to throw off a building. Call me crazy.

Originally posted by Alex
Guess it's a good thing we aren't idiots who judge games solely on their visual presentation.

No, but it is an important part of game design, and the example is perfect for demonstrating how Zelda fans clearly don't hold that as a priority.

And, really, the imagery go a long way to creating a feel and a style for just any visual entertainment.

Originally Posted by Jeff

No, but it is an important part of game design, and the example is perfect for demonstrating how Zelda fans clearly don't hold that as a priority.

And, really, the imagery go a long way to creating a feel and a style for just any visual entertainment.

Lazy or not, it's still a parallel world, and it's still a great looking game. You definitely have a point, but I mean, did it really detract from the experience, or is this just an argument you brought up to prove a point?

Also, I don't know about you, but for me Majora's Mask had a very different feel from OoT. The visuals definitely have something to do with that.

I'd also like it to be known that I do not consider TP to be a bad looking game by any means. Aside from a few ****ed up looking character models and a slightly dull color palette at times, it's a pretty great looking game.

It kept the game from looking as good as it could've, so it definitely detracted from the experience and when viewing it as a video game, it's a clear flaw.

And yes, my point was that Zelda fans are morons. Morons with double standards who have ludicrous expectations about the games, because they don't treat them as the media that they are.

Originally Posted by Jeff

It kept the game from looking as good as it could've, so it definitely detracted from the experience and when viewing it as a video game, it's a clear flaw.

It's a flaw, but a small one.

And yes, my point was that Zelda fans are morons. Morons with double standards who have ludicrous expectations about the games, because they don't treat them as the media that they are.

Probably because Zelda games have had a huge effect on a lot of people. Ever read any of Hylian Dan's articles? Jeeezus.

Edit: This is oddly civilized.

Originally posted by Alex
It's a flaw, but a small one.

That's where we'll disagree, and call it a day.

Probably because Zelda games have had a huge effect on a lot of people. Ever read any of Hylian Dan's articles? Jeeezus.

Zelda games have had a bigger impact on me than any kind of media entertainment. They're the greatest reason why I got into storytelling and spend more time with than hobby than anything else in my life, something I'd like to one day make a career out of. I always tell people, my primary inspiration in the Zelda franchise.

But I also recognize the medium that the games are, and expect certain things to take priority over the narrative, the message, the characters and such. There are other mediums better suited to meet those needs should a Zelda game not satisfy me in those regards.

Edit: This is oddly civilized.

We can save animosity for a more worthwhile dicussion.

These debates are just a huge evil circle. Someone starts by either going "TP sucks" or "TP is awesome," then someone says the opposite, and people just keep going. I have no idea how many of these threads this forum has seen.

Why can't we all just get along?

There is nothing wrong about "copying" an old gameplay. I mean, wouldn't it be sad if you never ever again would be able to play a game like OoT? A new Ocarina of Time was exactly what I wanted as a Zelda fan. Although TP doesn't have the same feeling and atmosphere as OoT, i really like it.

Now I can't describe how much I would love too see a Zelda like Majora's Mask. But it feels like that they won't be able to accomplish the same atmosphere in this game either. I don't know what it is, but there is a certain feeling you get when playing OoT and MM, a seemingly unrepeatable one.

I didn't hate TP, but I didn't like it much, either. My reason is that...not only did the hype ruin it, but I couldn't grasp the same traditional Zelda feeling like I could with most of the other games, and to this day, I still don't know why. I know Twilight Princess was suppose to be a different game, yet it had some similarity to a couple others (ie: OOT and ALTTP), and it still felt that something special was missing from it.

That may be a stupid reason for some of you, but that's the truth and I'm sticking with it.

Originally Posted by Link92

It's not original enough- OoT=ALTTP in 3D. MM=OoT with a time limit and newer masks. WW=OoT on a boat with a new art style. Every single game in the series since ALTTP has fed off a previous game's success and gameplay, so this complaint about TP being "unoriginal" is hypocritical and stupid. Also, the Wii's controls and the wolf form, both of which greatly affect gameplay, have never been used before in a Zelda game. Not to mention the fact that OoT's Z-Targeting was very inaccurate and clunky at times, the time limit of MM only limits freedom of exploration, and WW's sailing is a general pain in the ass.

You gotta be joking. The only "fed off" aspect from previous games is the whole Master Sword story. So basically, you're defense for TP's flaws is that previous Zelda games have it too? In that case, shouldn't Nintendo LEARN from their mistakes and not commit them again?

Ganondorf feels tacked on at the end- ALTTP did the exact same thing and yet gets absolutely no criticism for it. This is because nostalgia blinds people to the truth and forces people to address only the flaws of newer games while making them completely forget the flaws of newer ones.

Again, look above. Shouldn't Nintendo learn and not make the mistakes again?

The gameplay sucks- Combat has never been more fluid and varied,

Technically, WW's swordfighting was smoother and more fluent then TP. TP's swordfighting was just like OoT (cept for the hidden skills). In the GC version, the fighting was smooth, but on Wii, Link would often perform an unnecessary slash because the correspondence with the Wiimote is simply terrible.

It feels fanficky- What the hell does this even mean? The people who make this complaint themselves don't even know. Their only explanation for this is "It just feels that way." A totally invalid complaint for that reason.

When has anyone offered that argument? Are people actually that retarded here?

It has "no soul."- You mean the "soul" that's actually just nostalgia? People who make this complaint completely choose to ignore the relationship between Link and Midna, Link and the village children, Midna and Zant, Zant's very unique and original personality change, the cinematic cutscenes, which you can skip, by the way, so don't make any BS complaints about the cutscenes, Zelda's mourning, and of course, the dark atmosphere of the story.

TP did not have the "dark climate" that OOT had. And here's one significant example. In TP, there's Ganondorf in the castle, ready to take over the world, and there's the townspeople and the rest of Hyrule, going on as though nothing's happening. In OOT, Hyrule Castle Town is completely devastated, overrun with ReDeads, and the townsfolk have to relocate. Yes, TP did have a "dark" storyline, but there was hardly any evil climate other then the pathetically weak monsters roaming the fields. And there was no relationship nor any background between Link and Ganon. In fact, the final battle was the first time they actually met. No other Zelda that occurs in Hyrule ever had this problem.

It's too easy- No Zelda game since ALTTP has ever been truly difficult.

OoT's only difficulty comes from the clunky combat,

Good for OOT

I never once died or ran out of time in MM, and WW is just as easy as TP.

Good for you in MM. Again, you're pointing out more reasons that TP should have been better: Nintendo SHOULD LEARN FROM THEIR MISTAKES!!

In fact, the console franchise's only difficulty seems to stem from control limitations.

LoZ- You could only stab directly in front of you in 4 directions and could only move on a grid formation.

AoL- It's a sidescroller.

ALTTP- The only notable exception, where the game has updated controls while at the same time having updated difficulty.

OoT- Clunkiness, limiting one's ability to dodge attacks. Especially bad while using jump-attacks. They're very slow, and if you miss, which happens very often, you will continue to jump in the wrong direction if you use it again until you manually turn Link back around to face the enemy.

MM- Better controls and gameplay than OoT, and so I never died once. The time limit didn't really add any difficulty because you merely have to plan ahead and be smart, and only really limited your freedom to do whatever you wanted.

WW- Only slightly more difficult than TP because of the amazing gameplay, with the exception of sailing.

TP- Much more fast-paced action with tons of new ways to kill enemies, making you nearly invincible. Bashing TP's easiness is the equivalent of bashing it for having good controls.

If I'm not mistaken, most of the complaints about easiness are against the actual bosses.

People hate the complaining about TP because, for one thing, every flaw in TP can be applied to a much greater extent to any previous game in the series, and because the definition of a "bad game" has become so ridiculously skewed and exaggerated that people automatically label a game as "bad" as soon as they find a flaw or are the least bit disappointed.

Some games are just not the right games for some people. But the fact that these people automatically label the game as "bad" is why people detest haters so much. The fact that you do not like the game does not make it bad. The fact that a game does not really revolutionize the franchise does not make it bad. The fact that the game contains elements you don't particularly like does not make the game bad.

A "bad" game is a game that's almost unplayable because of poor gameplay, is just horribly boring, or has very cheap difficulty where the AI cheats and the game decides when you fail rather than the decision being left to the player. That's what a bad game is, and TP does not in any way fit that description.

Absolutely correct. I know that the definition of a "bad game" is really screwed up today, yet I have to say that defending a game for its flaws by pointing out that its predecessors had them is NOT the answer.

I think I'm going to have to edit this post because I'm on my phone. I'm really sorry ZU, but the mobile doesn't really help in using the internet.

Meh, I liked TP. I was quite shocked when I saw on the net that is bashed by fans, when critics said it was one of the best Zelda games made. Huh. Wonder whats with the the contrast

Bah! I cant be bothered responding to Abyss's wall of txt (partly coz I'm on my psp when I'm supposd to be studyin) so I'll just say this:

To me, one of the most important things about a game is its originality. Now TP wasn't a bad game, but IMO it had less originality than OoT, MM and WW. I find TP disappointing because it was the fourth 3D Zelda, yet it did not show more originality than its predecessors, when it should have.

I am not affected by nostalgia nor did I even see the TP trailers before I got the game.

The game suck. Simple as that. It can't compare to the ones before it. The general level of the games have been going down regularly but took a huge leap in TP that's all. It can be a beautiful amusing game but not enough for a Zelda game. I do like parts of it but it's not a "real" Zelda game that could be ranked with it's predecessors.

I have to admit, I'm getting a little sick of the constant Twilight Princess bashing - especially since it is so at odds with the general consensus (outside of these forums, that is) that Twilight Princess is an excellent game.

For instance, let's take a look at some professional reviews of the game:

IGN AU rating: 9.6

The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess is, in my opinion, the greatest Zelda game ever created and one of the best launch titles in the history of launch titles – second only, perhaps, to the at-the-time ground-breaking Super Mario 64. It is also one of the finest games I have ever played. The experience is made better and not worse on Wii. The Wii remote and nunchuk add accuracy and speed to exploration and combat for a heightened sense of immersion. While the game has just about everything going for it, including improved controls, a long and engrossing quest, brain-teasing dungeons and some beautiful graphics, it's not perfect. The difficulty has been upped over Wind Waker, but I wish it were harder still – the boss fights are oftentimes too easy, for example. Additionally, while the visuals are generally impressive, some textures remain blurry to the point they are noticeable. And finally, I still question why Nintendo refuses to add either voice work to the side characters (especially since Twilight Princess features such an improved, dark storyline) or orchestrated music to the soundtrack.

Gamespot rating: 8.8

Twilight Princess is a great game that stays extremely true to the Zelda franchise's past. That's excellent news for fans of the series, who'll find in Twilight Princess a true-blue Zelda game with updated visuals, some new twists, plenty of challenging puzzles, and a faithful dedication to the series' roots.

1up rating: A+

The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess shoulders the weight of more expectations than any game should, in all fairness, be expected to bear. Not only does it have its series' considerable legacy to live up to, it also has to win back gamers who were disenchanted with 2003's controversial Wind Waker. And not only is it the last major GameCube game, it's also the Wii's flagship launch title. And that means it doesn't just need to justify a one-year delay -- it also has to prove that the Wii is up to snuff as a console, and that the system's unique remote controller actually works for "real" games.

That's a lot to live up to, and surprisingly -- amazingly -- Twilight Princess succeeds admirably, and in every respect. On top of that, it's an exceptional game in its own right: gracefully improving on the best elements of its predecessors, carefully trimming their shortcomings, and throwing in plenty of new ideas to keep things interesting.

In addition, the Wii version of Twilight Princess gained scores of:

- 38/40 from Famitsu
- 10/10 from Game Informer
- 30/30 from Electronic Gaming Monthly
- 9.5/10 from Nintendo Power
- 5/5 from GameSpy.

Finally, according to Metacritic, it has an average rating amongst professional reviews of 95%.

When you consider scores like these, the overwhelmingly harsh criticisms levelled at the game on this forum, including statements like "it's not a true Zelda game", begin to seem rather ludicrous.

I'll freely acknowledge that Twilight Princess is not perfect - but I still cannot think of it as anything but a fantastic game, and a worthy Zelda title.

Originally Posted by Guilthas

The game suck. Simple as that. It can't compare to the ones before it. The general level of the games have been going down regularly but took a huge leap in TP that's all.

Bull****. TP perfects the classic Zelda formula, especially where gameplay is concerned. Explain.

How does it perfect the classic Zelda formula? It's almost exactly like ALttP and OoT, like nothing is different.

I'm not saying this as a bad thing (not saying it's a good thing either), but I mean, it definitely didn't do any perfecting. Hell, Twilight Princess's "dark world" can't even compare to ALttP's, and ALttP is getting up there in age now.

Originally Posted by Link92

Okay, I'm about to debunk every single possible complaint about TP.

Impossible as they are valid complaints

The overworld was empty- Complete BS. In OoT, the overworld was severely lacking in enemies, especially during adult Link's quest, and there wasn't a SINGLE overworld puzzle. TP fixes both problems. WW was also pretty empty.

In OoT, the overworld would be filled at night with stalchildren. It wasn't totally empty. On another note, the OoT overworld did its job. It was an expanse that got you from point A to B without being overly complicated and dull. Running across didn't take much time and then the warp songs were frequent and took you where ever you needed to get to. Thus making traveling not a hassle.

MM did pretty much the same thing. Easy warping, smaller overworld but also very diverse. It's well layed out and easy to work with.

OoA/S had the ever expanding overworld formula perfectly. You need item A to get to point B and each screen was fun.

TWW the overworld was far more expansive than TP. Every island had something or other. Admittedly some were a bit weak, and sailing could be boring, but it still provided a fun experience. Plus with the treasure charts, you could alway take a break.

TP's overworld was not as expansive as TWW, but it was by far emptier. Sure you could run around and shoot stuff, but what for? The mini dungeons were a nice effort but felt slapped together and were just a matter of go down path A then B then C then D. Anything more involved was just a slightly harder version of a dungeon you've already beaten, and by slightly harder, we're talking from 3 year old can do it to 5 year old can do it.

It's not original enough- OoT=ALTTP in 3D. MM=OoT with a time limit and newer masks. WW=OoT on a boat with a new art style. Every single game in the series since ALTTP has fed off a previous game's success and gameplay, so this complaint about TP being "unoriginal" is hypocritical and stupid. Also, the Wii's controls and the wolf form, both of which greatly affect gameplay, have never been used before in a Zelda game. Not to mention the fact that OoT's Z-Targeting was very inaccurate and clunky at times, the time limit of MM only limits freedom of exploration, and WW's sailing is a general pain in the ass.

And if Zelda Wii is any indication, TP did indeed revolutionize the series, by introducing it to the Wii's controls, while Zelda Wii will improve upon them.

I see nowhere in here that you explain how TP is original, but instead only weak arguments as to why the other games are allegedly unoriginal.

OoA and OoS, two of probably the most original Zeldas in the series. Between their multiple uses for data sharing, amazing storyline, and awesome items, they stand as two of the most original and best Zeldas ever.

If you're going to go around calling MM unoriginal, I'll have to go around calling you retarded. The entire idea of a timelimit, the storyline, the bombers notebook, everything. It was displayed in an entirely new way.

TWW's artstyle is enough to set it apart. It went with something that never wasn't safe. They re-invented the whole idea of how a serious game can be shown. Then there's the relationship between Link and Tetra, and so on. Everything was displayed in a new way.

TP is the ultimate in a safe game. They stuck to the most conventional means. Start off in a forest village ala OoT, land is being thrown into shadow ala ALttP, go through the first three dungeons: forest fire water, then there's a quest change, throwing the world into shadow realm ala ALttP, TP does not do one thing that isn't safe. They even went back and tacked on Ganondorf to the end.

Ganondorf feels tacked on at the end- ALTTP did the exact same thing and yet gets absolutely no criticism for it. This is because nostalgia blinds people to the truth and forces people to address only the flaws of newer games while making them completely forget the flaws of newer ones.

Here's the difference: Ganon was planned to be the main villian in ALttP from the start. TP was supposed to have Zant. There is a definite downward curve in quality on the last half of the game. Quite honestly I believe they altered the end to have Ganondorf, just for the sake of having him in a wii launch title.

ALttP worked in Ganon seemlessly, giving appropriate backstory for Aganihm, an appropriate setup and everything.

The gameplay sucks- Combat has never been more fluid and varied, projectile aiming has never been more accurate, horseback riding has never been more fast-paced and expansive, even allowing you to use your sword this time while allowing you to fight mounted enemies any time you want later on, fishing is much more diverse and fun, the overworld has never been more full for its size in a 3D Zelda game, and no other Zelda game has had as many minigames.

Horseback riding is the one thing TP got right. That I can give you, but any strike other than a targeted strike or the swordspin would almost never hit.

Now for the flaws in gameplay: the camera went a bit wonky at times. The magnet boots would at times just randomly decide 'hey lets go the opposite direction of the analog' and stuff like that.

It feels fanficky- What the hell does this even mean? The people who make this complaint themselves don't even know. Their only explanation for this is "It just feels that way." A totally invalid complaint for that reason.

The writing isn't exactly good. The entire plot is about Midna who's a rather copy paste character, who isn't as good as we were promised. Even the dialogue isn't very convincing.

It has "no soul."- You mean the "soul" that's actually just nostalgia? People who make this complaint completely choose to ignore the relationship between Link and Midna, Link and the village children, Midna and Zant, Zant's very unique and original personality change, the cinematic cutscenes, which you can skip, by the way, so don't make any BS complaints about the cutscenes, Zelda's mourning, and of course, the dark atmosphere of the story.

See originality. This game plays it safe in every sense of the word. It doesn't go out on a limb. It is by fare the safest and as such one of the dullest Zeldas out there.

It's too easy- No Zelda game since ALTTP has ever been truly difficult. OoT's only difficulty comes from the clunky combat, I never once died or ran out of time in MM, and WW is just as easy as TP.

In fact, the console franchise's only difficulty seems to stem from control limitations.

Let's see...
OoT Water temple, need I say more? Ok, I will anyways.
OoT Ganon's Tower
OoT Spirit Temple
OoT Shadow Temple
OoT Every other dungeon
OoT's minigames
All of those alone are harder than the entirety of TP and that's just one game.

MM Water Temple
MM Pirate fortress
MM Minigames
MM Water Temple Boss
MM Getting the fierce diety mask
MM Anju and Kafei
MM Stone Tower Temple

Two games down -note I won't even go into the 2D games despite the fact that their puzzles are a great deal harder.

TWW... every dungeon

In all of these games, there were moments where I actually had to think. Looking around and figuring out solutions. TP it was just... I have the perfect vid for this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMRRsph1Gx8

Even if it is an OoT spoof, the ending gets the point across.

Now, one thing I didn't mention in any of these was combat. Yet that's another thing they all get added to the list. It takes three darknuts in TP to beat me. 3 of the hardest enemy. OoT bosses were actually worth fighting. MM's too. TWW had intuitive combat, but it wasn't always just given to you, oh and here's something really important: THE ENEMIES DID MORE THAN 1/4 OF A HEART DAMAGE Seriously, how can you expect anything of a challenge from a game that gives you 12 hits from the start and an autoshield, and enemies that aim for said shield? It should be easier to take damage. I have a HARD TIME DYING in that game!

People hate the complaining about TP because, for one thing, every flaw in TP can be applied to a much greater extent to any previous game in the series, and because the definition of a "bad game" has become so ridiculously skewed and exaggerated that people automatically label a game as "bad" as soon as they find a flaw or are the least bit disappointed.

Woah woah woah: How can you make the same complaints of TP on the other games? The other games weren't promised to be the best game ever and delayed for 2.5 years only to come out mediocre at best. As a stand alone TP is ok, but as the heir of one of the most prestigious series in all of gaming it has a lot of screw ups and short cuts.

Some games are just not the right games for some people.

Like TP for any Zelda fan.

But the fact that these people automatically label the game as "bad" is why people detest haters so much. The fact that you do not like the game does not make it bad.

No, the games shortcomings and let downs do that.

The fact that a game does not really revolutionize the franchise does not make it bad.

It makes it very disappointing. Especially when we were told for 2.5 years it would be the best thing ever.

The fact that the game contains elements you don't particularly like does not make the game bad.

The fact that it's bad makes it bad.

A "bad" game is a game that's almost unplayable because of poor gameplay, is just horribly boring, or has very cheap difficulty where the AI cheats and the game decides when you fail rather than the decision being left to the player. That's what a bad game is, and TP does not in any way fit that description.

Gameplay is full of inaccurate gimmicks that confuse shield bash and swordspin, and make me go the opposite direction that I want to.

Boring, not challenging, enemies suck

Cheating AI makes games more fun. Hence Mario Kart being so insanely popular. Fact is AI cant rationalize. They follow algorithms. If they cheat it gives them the edge to compete with rational human beings.

TP does fit your description of a bad game.

When it comes down to it, a good game is something you'll want to play again. TP doesn't have that appeal to me. Hence bad.

Well put, man. I don't agree that the game is bad/mediocre, but well put.