What the hell do people have against Twilight Princess?

Really? I seem to recall it being the other way around...

Well I see what he's saying. TWW fanboys are extremely hypocritical when talking about Twilight Princess. Twilight Princess suffered some of the same problems TWW did, and people murder TP when TWW had the same exact problems, fans turning a blind eye to a game that was once heavily criticised for tedious sailing, an empty overworld, bad fetch quests, short main quest, low difficulty, unoriginal dungeons/items, lack of story after turning point, and reused Zelda music. Fans of this game go on to say that TP was worse because of some of these same flaws, that were actually covered up by a full main quest. Bull, complete utter crap.

Really can't stand TWW and TP debate, I'll just wait until the TP and Z-Wii debates come in.

Originally Posted by Zeldablue777

Really can't stand TWW and TP debate, I'll just wait until the TP and Z-Wii debates come in.

If Mario Galaxy is anything to go by, I don't think that will ever happen.

It will. It always does. If the next Zelda ends up being even a little bit watered down, it will be compared to another Zelda that had a "fuller experience" or end up dealing with the whole "The game was too differennt and didn't feel like a Zelda game" debate. Bleugh

Originally Posted by Zeldablue777

It will. It always does. If the next Zelda ends up being even a little bit watered down, it will be compared to another Zelda that had a "fuller experience" or end up dealing with the whole "The game was too differennt and didn't feel like a Zelda game" debate. Bleugh

Well I still think that ZWii will still be overall rated better than TP in the eyes of the general gamer.

Originally Posted by Double A

Well I still think that ZWii will still be overall rated better than TP in the eyes of the general gamer.

Arr, but mos' landlubbers thought th' same o' Twilight Princess (that it would be better by farrr than th' Waker o' Winds) afore it set sail. Ye've no way of knowin', me heartie, if 'twill be a treasure, or if 'twill be cast to the fishes.

Originally Posted by Astarrrrael

Arr, but mos' landlubbers thought th' same o' Twilight Princess (that it would be better by farrr than th' Waker o' Winds) afore it set sail. Ye've no way of knowin', me heartie, if 'twill be a treasure, or if 'twill be cast to the fishes.

Okay, I said it way wrong.

What I meant was that I don't believe there will be nearly as many people criticizing ZWii as there were criticizing TP.

Originally Posted by Double A

I "changed one word", remember?

Yeah, but you didn't change the sentence.

Are you seriously comparing MM's transformation mechanic to the Horse-riding mechanic in TP?

Urr yeah, read what I said again and you may better understand why. Both the masks and the horse-riding were factors in previous games, however in this particular game they were further explored and utilized.

If anything, it would be more comparable to the Wolf Transformation. And even then, the MM transformation masks were used in many diferent ways, and they were actually used in ways that made them seem meaningful, and they were used far more often than the Wolf transformation in TP. The Wolf mechanic was somewhat unnecesary (fancy jumping, lens of truth, area-of-effect attack were all the Wolf form brought in, and they weren't even used that often)

Oh the wolf form was used throughout the entire game, and it was certainly far from "unnecessary". You'd have to forget 30% of the game to think so.

And even then, this has nothing to do with "originality".

I guess I'm just pissed off at TP's overworld.

But it's still highly irrelevant.

WW had more in it,

Nah.

OoT had a more open-feeling overworld (not being able to see the edge made it feel open)

As opposed to that one field in TP?

and MM was too short to even bother with a decent overworld,

That's not a good thing.

and its overworld was still pretty good.

I'd say cramped, but each to his own.

Let's break this down.

TP had lots of new things, to be sure, but none of them were original, or truly inspired.

One of the definitions of original is new, or fresh, or inventive, or you get the point.

TP didn't introduce any new gameplay mechanics,

Something tells me we are ignoring the Wii version here. Anyway, I dunno what mechanics you're looking at but I am looking at the relevant ones, i.e. how you play the game. That is, afterall, what gameplay is. And in my eyes, TP is as "original" gameplay wise as MM was.

only a couple of items that were barely used.

The spinner was used a lot in the Arbiter's Grounds, a little in Temple of Time, and moderately in City in the Sky, and finally in Hyrule Castle. The Dominion Rod was used loads in the Temple of Time ad before the City in the Sky (in fact it played a key role in finding a way to that dungeon). Out of all the items, only the Ball and Chain properly fits your description of "barely used", at least for Zelda standards.

That is, looking away from the slingshot, which really wasn't any original at all.

And then we have the fact that several of the items received new, original ways of using them. The boomerang, for example, does an entirely different job from what it did in OoT. It uses wind mechanics to solve puzzles ala the bridges in the Forest Temple or putting out fires or the like. The bow received bomb arrows, which made it easier to bomb exact spots. The bomb itself saw two new incarnations in the water bomb and the bombling. The clawshot (which we can all agree is the successor of the hookshot) gained entirely new uses upon getting the double clawshots.

Light World-Dark World. Where have I seen this before? Oh wait, even OoT had something similar.

Yes, ALttP had a light world/dark world thing going on, but OoT did not. What OoT did was put you in two different worlds, yes - a pre-Ganondorf Hyrule and a dark Hyrule where he had taken over. However, the twilight is nothing like this, or the dark world. The dark world is an entire different world that mimics the light world. The corrupted Hyrule is simply a Hyrule infested with monsters. The twilight is a presence that directly affects the world of light, not some mimic like the dark world.

This is a story element, which had a rather negative effect on the gameplay (bug hunts, linearity). So naturally, I hate it.

And that is irrelevant. I did not find it to be bad for the gameplay.

... which was completely unnecessary.

So Adult Link was unnecessary in OoT? The transformations were unnecessary in MM?

OMGZNOWAI TP IZ ORIGINAL NAO!!!!

Stop looking at one thing and start looking at the entire damn picture, or you will end up looking like a fool.

I don't give a damn about story elements,

And that's your own bloody fault.

and when people look for originality in a game, they don't look at the story.

Says... you?

But no original gameplay mechanics.

Do you even know what you're talking about anymore?

MM had the whole "multiple personalities"

... what?

and WW had the sailing.

I'd say that the sailing was boring, but that would indeed by irrelevant since that doesn't affect the originality whatsoever.

And again, the wolf.

And even when the items did become original, they were so barely used it wasn't funny.

I will once again disprove you with the Gale Boomerang as my evidence. It's used in an entirely different way.

And again, exaggerations.

As you can see, I'm not blinded by much of the Zelda fandom going around. I actually thought OoT was a better game than TP.

And so do I.

The difference between us is that I do not obsess about "originality" or "no story" or anything like that. And I know better than to exaggerate to get my point across.

The biggest problem i see is the Zelda fanatics, if you didn't like TP then it's only yourself to blame. If i remember correctly Nintendo did delay TP a couple of times the fans were getting so impatient about these delays Nintendo had to release it asap. So if your complaining about the game being unpolished, guess what, it's your fault.

Another mistake i think Nintendo made was releasing the game on two systems. I understand why Nintendo released TP on the Wii since the GC was on its last legs and there was no point on releasing the game only on a pretty much dead system, especially since the Wii was coming out soon afterwards. If they dedicated TP on the Wii only and spend more time finishing the game maybe the hardcore fans wouldn't be complaining but guess what, stupid Zelda fanatics were having none of it and wanted the game asap, so the way I see it, you only have yourself to blame if you didn't like TP and feel it was rushed.

ohh sh**. Wall of text incoming.

Originally Posted by Abyss Master

Yeah, but you didn't change the sentence.

I didn't change your sentence. I changed Mandrag's (?) sentence.

Originally Posted by Abyss Master

Oh the wolf form was used throughout the entire game, and it was certainly far from "unnecessary". You'd have to forget 30% of the game to think so.

And even then, this has nothing to do with "originality".

"Throughout the entire game" was merely some sniffing out of some poorly-conceived/completely useless secrets. Wolf Link didn't do much, and what it did do could have easily been replicated with items. Heck, if they designed the game without the wolf, it's likely the bug hunts would have gone differently.

The gameplay which constitutes Wolf Link makes him unoriginal. Area-of-effect attack (basically an upgraded Spin Attack), fancy jumps (rather similar to the hookshot), "wolf sense" (obvious).

Originally Posted by Abyss Master

The spinner was used a lot in the Arbiter's Grounds, a little in Temple of Time, and moderately in City in the Sky, and finally in Hyrule Castle. The Dominion Rod was used loads in the Temple of Time ad before the City in the Sky (in fact it played a key role in finding a way to that dungeon). Out of all the items, only the Ball and Chain properly fits your description of "barely used", at least for Zelda standards.

That is, looking away from the slingshot, which really wasn't any original at all.

And then we have the fact that several of the items received new, original ways of using them. The boomerang, for example, does an entirely different job from what it did in OoT. It uses wind mechanics to solve puzzles ala the bridges in the Forest Temple or putting out fires or the like. The bow received bomb arrows, which made it easier to bomb exact spots. The bomb itself saw two new incarnations in the water bomb and the bombling. The clawshot (which we can all agree is the successor of the hookshot) gained entirely new uses upon getting the double clawshots.

1. Spinner was barely used. It was used lots in AG, once in ToT, once in final dungeon, and once in Hyrule Field. I can count the number of times it was used outside of its dungeon on my hands. Same goes for Dominion Rod and Double Clawshots.

2. If I remember correctly, Gale Boomerang suffered from the same problem, as did the Water Bomb and the bombling. Wait, the bombling had no use. You could do whatever you wanted to do with a bombling with a normal bomb.

3. Whoo! I used wind to solve wind-related puzzles! Why can't we solve something more original with wind, such as earth-based puzzles?

4. The Slingshot.

And even if they were original, the fact that they were hardly used indicates a lack of original puzzles which used the items, which is still a lack of originality.

Originally Posted by Abyss Master

Yes, ALttP had a light world/dark world thing going on, but OoT did not. What OoT did was put you in two different worlds, yes - a pre-Ganondorf Hyrule and a dark Hyrule where he had taken over. However, the twilight is nothing like this, or the dark world. The dark world is an entire different world that mimics the light world. The corrupted Hyrule is simply a Hyrule infested with monsters. The twilight is a presence that directly affects the world of light, not some mimic like the dark world.

Why does it matter whether or not the "Dark World" was a mimic or a dark-modified land? Does it affect the gameplay? Would it affect how the "dark world/twilight" looked?

You're just taking very minor technicalities and using them to make the "Twilight" (sounds REALLY fanfic-y) seem more original.

Originally Posted by Abyss Master

So Adult Link was unnecessary in OoT? The transformations were unnecessary in MM?
.

1. Uhh, yeah then. Adult Link was unnecessary, if you say so. Besides, it was already established in MM that young Link could use adult items.

2. Well, I guess you could say that the transformations were unnecessary in MM to be able to do all of those things. But then again, the things that Wolf Link offered to the gameplay were so minor that they could have been replaced with items. The transformations in MM were used so much, and they did so much, I think it would have been far more convenient to keep them as mask transformations. Plus, everything that the Masks allowed Link to do followed more coherent themes (Deku, Goron, Zora). Therefore, the MM masks were more necessary than the Wolf Transformation.

Originally Posted by Abyss Master

I will once again disprove you with the Gale Boomerang as my evidence. It's used in an entirely different way.

And again, exaggerations.

ZOMG!!!

Wait... I wasn't disproved. The Gale Boomerang was hardly used for more than to turn a couple of fans and transporting bomblings through the air.

Originally Posted by Abyss Master

The difference between us is that I do not obsess about "originality" or "no story" or anything like that. And I know better than to exaggerate to get my point across.

No. TP was not a bad game. However, it was overwhelmingly disappointing, for a game that was preceded by OoT, MM and WW.

I like Twilight Princess... Ocarina of Time also won a game of the year award back in 1998!.. The only thing is.. I don't like it better than OoT or MM, Why? I don't know.

Originally Posted by Double A

I didn't change your sentence. I changed Mandrag's (?) sentence.

You changed "creativity" to "originality", and I said my point still applied.

"Throughout the entire game" was merely some sniffing out of some poorly-conceived/completely useless secrets.

Err no.

Wolf Link didn't do much, and what it did do could have easily been replicated with items.

SO WHAT?

The gameplay which constitutes Wolf Link makes him unoriginal. Area-of-effect attack (basically an upgraded Spin Attack), fancy jumps (rather similar to the hookshot), "wolf sense" (obvious).

Yet you do not use these moves like you would such items (except for the wolf sense, I suppose). You don't use the long jump like you would a hookshot. You don't use the force field attack like you would a spin attack. Different gameplay.

1. Spinner was barely used. It was used lots in AG, once in ToT, once in final dungeon, and once in Hyrule Field. I can count the number of times it was used outside of its dungeon on my hands.

Actually it's used three times in Hyrule Field, and it is also used in the City in the Sky.

Same goes for Dominion Rod

It's put to quite a bit of use in Hyrule Field, at least.

and Double Clawshots.

This sees moderate usage in the Palace of Twilight and Hyrule Castle. It is also the very last item you obtain in the game.

2. If I remember correctly, Gale Boomerang suffered from the same problem,

No it f***ing didn't, that's pulling stuff out of your behind. The Gale Boomerang is arguably one of the most useful items in the entire goddamn game.

as did the Water Bomb

Probably, but I'm actually talking about putting old items to new uses.

You could do whatever you wanted to do with a bombling with a normal bomb.

Not exactly, the bomblings will run ahead in a straight line until they either run into something or until they encounter an enemy, upon which they will follow said enemy.

3. Whoo! I used wind to solve wind-related puzzles! Why can't we solve something more original with wind, such as earth-based puzzles?

Because wind can't really do much with earth, now can it? Not unless you pull a stupid stunt to somehow make wind currents dig tunnels or something. Logic, you know?

4. The Slingshot.

Yes, thank you for repeating what I already mentioned.

And even if they were original, the fact that they were hardly used indicates a lack of original puzzles which used the items, which is still a lack of originality.

I'm not going to get into yet another argument here. However, I will remind you that the original argument was that I argumented against stating that there was no originality/creativity. You may think that there wasn't enough, but that's a different case that I will not get into.

Why does it matter whether or not the "Dark World" was a mimic or a dark-modified land?

Because while you can come and go into the dark world as you please (as long as you find the appropriate portals), this can't be done with the twilight. The twilight is a curse that is gradually lifted.

Does it affect the gameplay?

Yes.

You're just taking very minor technicalities and using them to make the "Twilight" (sounds REALLY fanfic-y) seem more original.

They're not minor, they're the sole difference between a Hyrule under twilight and the dark world. If you've played both ALttP and TP you know that just as there's a similarity, there's a difference.

Also, don't try to be unprofessional and start going at the word "twilight" just because there're some ****ty vampire books out there.

1. Uhh, yeah then. Adult Link was unnecessary, if you say so. Besides, it was already established in MM that young Link could use adult items.

Le sigh.

Honestly, are you looking only at what's necessary? Because that's got to be boring.

But then again, the things that Wolf Link offered to the gameplay were so minor that they could have been replaced with items.

No, they couldn't. Not without changing everything else first. The long jumps could not have been done with a hookshot. The warps could not have been done with mere Ocarina songs (because honestly, would you want to learn a new song for every warp portal?), and digging allows Wolf Link to reach areas that would have otherwise been out-of-reach. How would you make an item work around that?

The transformations in MM were used so much, and they did so much, I think it would have been far more convenient to keep them as mask transformations.

So, the more you use a mask the more necessary they become? Faulty logic there, mate; I don't exactly use masks more than I need them.

Therefore, the MM masks were more necessary than the Wolf Transformation.

Not that this was ever the original argument to begin with, but I'm not convinced that they were. Afterall, I used the wolf form in TP to do more than I would use a mask to do.

ZOMG!!!

Wait... I wasn't disproved. The Gale Boomerang was hardly used for more than to turn a couple of fans and transporting bomblings through the air.

That's all just in the Forest Temple.

You're aware that you use the boomerang after the temple too? Honestly, when did you last play the game?

@ OP

Simple. Zelda fans don't treat Zelda titles as video games. They treat them as some form of art, firstmost.

That's why the most common complaints about TP revolve around its characters, the story, the atmosphere, the theme, the linearity etc. That's why the majority of gripes that Zelda fans have with an entry to the series is something related to the abstract, that it doesn't have a certain 'feel' to it.

This is the same fanbase where you'll find TP being criticized as 'having no soul' or being a rehash in some regards, yet they could care less that arguably more than half of MM's visuals were ripped directly out of OoT. Go figure.

Originally Posted by Jeff

@ OP

Simple. Zelda fans don't treat Zelda titles as video games. They treat them as some form of art, firstmost.

That's why the most common complaints about TP revolve around its characters, the story, the atmosphere, the theme, the linearity etc. That's why the majority of gripes that Zelda fans have with an entry to the series is something related to the abstract, that it doesn't have a certain 'feel' to it.

This is the same fanbase where you'll find TP being criticized as 'having no soul' or being a rehash in some regards, yet they could care less that arguably more than half of MM's visuals were ripped directly out of OoT. Go figure.

Nevermind the fact that MM is a direct sequel to OoT, and pretty much pushed the N64 to it's limits, visually.

Originally Posted by Zeldablue777

Yeah I very much perfer the Zelda games that have orchestrated music...


Wait a sec! All the Zelda games have all MIDI music. :| What a disappointment.

It'd be nice see another move in the series. I'm not the typical OoT fanboy lashing out of TP, I'm just saying Zelda would do rather nicely with an orchestrated soundtrack.

Originally posted by Alex
Nevermind the fact that MM is a direct sequel to OoT, and pretty much pushed the N64 to it's limits, visually.

It wasn't asking much to push the limits of a cartridge-based console at that point in the generation. It's not so much the visuals that pushed the 64, more like the size of the world going along with a highly detailed time system.

And direct sequel or not, it was artistically uninspired. No reason why they couldn't have come up with unique models.

I mean, if you find that excuse legitimate, that because it's a direct sequel they can cut a gigantic corner development wise and just reuse exactly what was out of the last game, it's a perfect representation of what's wrong with hardcore Zelda fans.

It was hardly an issue, though. Termina is often considered to be a parallel universe, isn't it?

Character models aside, the rest of the game looked fantastic.

Originally Posted by Jeff

And direct sequel or not, it was artistically uninspired. No reason why they couldn't have come up with unique models.

Yeah, because the N64 totally wasn't near the end of its lifespan, and the dev team definitely wasn't under time constraints that caused them to reuse models to have more time to develop the actual game. Most definitely true.

Okay, I'm about to debunk every single possible complaint about TP.

The overworld was empty- Complete BS. In OoT, the overworld was severely lacking in enemies, especially during adult Link's quest, and there wasn't a SINGLE overworld puzzle. TP fixes both problems. WW was also pretty empty.

It's not original enough- OoT=ALTTP in 3D. MM=OoT with a time limit and newer masks. WW=OoT on a boat with a new art style. Every single game in the series since ALTTP has fed off a previous game's success and gameplay, so this complaint about TP being "unoriginal" is hypocritical and stupid. Also, the Wii's controls and the wolf form, both of which greatly affect gameplay, have never been used before in a Zelda game. Not to mention the fact that OoT's Z-Targeting was very inaccurate and clunky at times, the time limit of MM only limits freedom of exploration, and WW's sailing is a general pain in the ass.

And if Zelda Wii is any indication, TP did indeed revolutionize the series, by introducing it to the Wii's controls, while Zelda Wii will improve upon them.

Ganondorf feels tacked on at the end- ALTTP did the exact same thing and yet gets absolutely no criticism for it. This is because nostalgia blinds people to the truth and forces people to address only the flaws of newer games while making them completely forget the flaws of newer ones.

The gameplay sucks- Combat has never been more fluid and varied, projectile aiming has never been more accurate, horseback riding has never been more fast-paced and expansive, even allowing you to use your sword this time while allowing you to fight mounted enemies any time you want later on, fishing is much more diverse and fun, the overworld has never been more full for its size in a 3D Zelda game, and no other Zelda game has had as many minigames.

It feels fanficky- What the hell does this even mean? The people who make this complaint themselves don't even know. Their only explanation for this is "It just feels that way." A totally invalid complaint for that reason.

It has "no soul."- You mean the "soul" that's actually just nostalgia? People who make this complaint completely choose to ignore the relationship between Link and Midna, Link and the village children, Midna and Zant, Zant's very unique and original personality change, the cinematic cutscenes, which you can skip, by the way, so don't make any BS complaints about the cutscenes, Zelda's mourning, and of course, the dark atmosphere of the story.

It's too easy- No Zelda game since ALTTP has ever been truly difficult. OoT's only difficulty comes from the clunky combat, I never once died or ran out of time in MM, and WW is just as easy as TP.

In fact, the console franchise's only difficulty seems to stem from control limitations.

LoZ- You could only stab directly in front of you in 4 directions and could only move on a grid formation.

AoL- It's a sidescroller.

ALTTP- The only notable exception, where the game has updated controls while at the same time having updated difficulty.

OoT- Clunkiness, limiting one's ability to dodge attacks. Especially bad while using jump-attacks. They're very slow, and if you miss, which happens very often, you will continue to jump in the wrong direction if you use it again until you manually turn Link back around to face the enemy.

MM- Better controls and gameplay than OoT, and so I never died once. The time limit didn't really add any difficulty because you merely have to plan ahead and be smart, and only really limited your freedom to do whatever you wanted.

WW- Only slightly more difficult than TP because of the amazing gameplay, with the exception of sailing.

TP- Much more fast-paced action with tons of new ways to kill enemies, making you nearly invincible. Bashing TP's easiness is the equivalent of bashing it for having good controls.

People hate the complaining about TP because, for one thing, every flaw in TP can be applied to a much greater extent to any previous game in the series, and because the definition of a "bad game" has become so ridiculously skewed and exaggerated that people automatically label a game as "bad" as soon as they find a flaw or are the least bit disappointed.

Some games are just not the right games for some people. But the fact that these people automatically label the game as "bad" is why people detest haters so much. The fact that you do not like the game does not make it bad. The fact that a game does not really revolutionize the franchise does not make it bad. The fact that the game contains elements you don't particularly like does not make the game bad.

A "bad" game is a game that's almost unplayable because of poor gameplay, is just horribly boring, or has very cheap difficulty where the AI cheats and the game decides when you fail rather than the decision being left to the player. That's what a bad game is, and TP does not in any way fit that description.

Originally posted by Alex
It was hardly an issue, though. Termina is often considered to be a parallel universe, isn't it?

Would've looked much better, and shown greater effort by the developers to actually add some creativity.

Originally posted by Silver
Yeah, because the N64 totally wasn't near the end of its lifespan, and the dev team definitely wasn't under time constraints that caused them to reuse models to have more time to develop the actual game. Most definitely true.

Time constraints are never a good enough excuse to pass aside a problem in a video game.

And, for the record, MM was released for the first time on May 27th, 2000. Gamecube was released for the first time on September 14th, 2001.

It came out a whole ****ing year and a 3 months before the 64's lifespan was officially over. Lots of other games come out at the 'end' of a console's life cycle and show way more effort put into them than that.

And I quoted "end", because a year and 3 months before the next gen is not the end of a lifespan unless you really want to stretch that terminology.

@Link92: XD From now on, when these threads show up again, I'm going to quote everything you just said. =] Also, I couldn't agree with you more about everything.