What the hell do people have against Twilight Princess?

guys....pretty much all zelda games follow the same process. learn your mission,go to dungeons, solve almost all the same puzzles, get sacred items, meet zelda, get more sacred items, fight ganondorf. alttp and oot are almost the same exact game story wise !

really the weirdest games in the series are the handheld ones.

thats why we love it. now can we all hug?

@ OP title.


Rollgoal.


nuff said.

Originally Posted by Double A

"Creativity" isn't the word.

The word is "originality".

You managed to replace a word, however my statement somehow still stands just as strong as it did before. Rather peculiar, isn't it?

The game was good. I enjoyed it. Compared to most Zelda titles it wasn't alll that great though.

Originally Posted by Abyss Master

You managed to replace a word, however my statement somehow still stands just as strong as it did before. Rather peculiar, isn't it?

I don't see how. "TP lacked originality", let's see...

OoT brought Zelda into 3D and introduced revolutionary gameplay mechanics and other new stuff.

MM had the whole mask thing and the time limit mechanic, which were pretty damn creative (and original).

WW had the most vibrant art style I've seen in a Zelda game (and it was pretty original for Zelda). The colors were bright, the difficulty was about right and it was my favourite Ganondorf appearance. WW also introduced the sailing thing, which could have been a bit more refined, but it was still pretty original. This also allowed it to have a more open-feeling overworld, as well as one that had more in it. It also hid loading times.

TP is the fourth 3D Zelda, you'd think by then Nintendo would have put more originality into it. Each of the Zelda games, especially the 3D ones, had something about them that was "original", at least for the Zelda series. TP had nothing.

Why the hell fanboys can't understand that people have their opinions?

Originally Posted by Double A

I don't see how. "TP lacked originality", let's see...

Actually, the statement was "had NO creativity", so you are at fault there.

MM had the whole mask thing and the time limit mechanic, which were pretty damn creative (and original).

But masks were a step forward from what we saw in OoT, not an entirely new idea in its own (ergo comparable to, say, horseriding in TP - roughly the same as earlier, but with new uses applied to it). The time mechanic was an original idea, yes.

In fact, you'd be better off pointing out the setting of MM - that's what was truly original about it.

WW had the most vibrant art style I've seen in a Zelda game (and it was pretty original for Zelda). The colors were bright, the difficulty was about right and it was my favourite Ganondorf appearance.

What does this have to do with originality?

WW also introduced the sailing thing, which could have been a bit more refined, but it was still pretty original.

A unique idea, yes.

This also allowed it to have a more open-feeling overworld, as well as one that had more in it. It also hid loading times.

But that's... irrelevant.

TP is the fourth 3D Zelda, you'd think by then Nintendo would have put more originality into it. Each of the Zelda games, especially the 3D ones, had something about them that was "original", at least for the Zelda series. TP had nothing.

TP had the twilight. TP had the wolf. TP had the Twili. TP had the Oocca. TP had the Yetis (Yeto and Yeta). TP put old items to new uses. TP introduced new items.

It's definitely a traditional game, but I'd think twice before saying that "TP had nothing". That would be a flat out lie.

Originally Posted by Double A

WW had the most vibrant art style I've seen in a Zelda game (and it was pretty original for Zelda). The colors were bright, the difficulty was about right and it was my favourite Ganondorf appearance.

This is what confuses me. IMO WW and TP were pretty much the same when it came to a relatively EASY difficulty for both games. Except the rabid fanboys cry and moan over TP being easy and WW just gets a free pass. Talk about double standards. With that said I'm OK with the rest of your argument.

I admit TP was a bit much on the whole ALTTP/OOT hybrid rehash. But I clearly remember that when WW came out, the whiners and complainers were clamoring for such a game. Then when they got it they still cried and moaned over something they wanted in the first place. And that is exactly why the most diehard of the Zelda fandom will NEVER be satisfied.

Wind Waker and Twilight Princess are about the same difficultly wise, with TP being maybe a little harder, but not much.

Actually I found enemy difficulty higher in TP than the one or two random slashes
it took to take down OoT enemies.

Originally Posted by Cukeman

Actually I found enemy difficulty higher in TP than the one or two random slashes
it took to take down OoT enemies.

True, but at least OoT enemies tried to hit back.

Like everything in TP takes 3 slashes, kinda pathetic.

When the new Zelda Wii comes out, i think people will change their opinions on TP. Its a trend i noticed. After OoT came out, Zelda fans got all topsy-turvy. Everyone loved OoT of course. When Majora's Mask came out, people hated it. Seriously, they did. Then Wind Waker came out and people loved Majora's Mask and hated WW. hmmm...Then TP came out and people loved Wind Waker and hated TP. see where this is going?

Im one of those people who found stuff to appreciate in each game.

Originally Posted by Mandrag

True, but at least OoT enemies tried to hit back.

Among the three that could hit.

Originally Posted by Abyss Master

Actually, the statement was "had NO creativity", so you are at fault there.

I "changed one word", remember?

Every game worth something required creativity, so to say that TP had no creativity would be pretty stupid.

Originally Posted by Abyss Master

But masks were a step forward from what we saw in OoT, not an entirely new idea in its own (ergo comparable to, say, horseriding in TP - roughly the same as earlier, but with new uses applied to it). The time mechanic was an original idea, yes.

Are you seriously comparing MM's transformation mechanic to the Horse-riding mechanic in TP?

If anything, it would be more comparable to the Wolf Transformation. And even then, the MM transformation masks were used in many diferent ways, and they were actually used in ways that made them seem meaningful, and they were used far more often than the Wolf transformation in TP. The Wolf mechanic was somewhat unnecesary (fancy jumping, lens of truth, area-of-effect attack were all the Wolf form brought in, and they weren't even used that often)

Originally Posted by Abyss Master

What does this have to do with originality?

For Zelda, the artstyle in WW was pretty damn original.

Originally Posted by Abyss Master

But that's... irrelevant.

I guess I'm just pissed off at TP's overworld. WW had more in it, OoT had a more open-feeling overworld (not being able to see the edge made it feel open) and MM was too short to even bother with a decent overworld, and its overworld was still pretty good.

Originally Posted by Abyss Master

TP had the twilight. TP had the wolf. TP had the Twili. TP had the Oocca. TP had the Yetis (Yeto and Yeta). TP put old items to new uses. TP introduced new items.

Let's break this down.

TP had lots of new things, to be sure, but none of them were original, or truly inspired. TP didn't introduce any new gameplay mechanics, only a couple of items that were barely used.

Originally Posted by Abyss Master

TP had the twilight.

Light World-Dark World. Where have I seen this before? Oh wait, even OoT had something similar.

This is a story element, which had a rather negative effect on the gameplay (bug hunts, linearity). So naturally, I hate it.

Originally Posted by Abyss Master

TP had the wolf.

... which was completely unnecessary.

Originally Posted by Abyss Master

TP had the Twili. TP had the Oocca. TP had the Yetis (Yeto and Yeta).

TP introduced two new races? That's twice as many as past 3D Zeldas!!! OMGZNOWAI TP IZ ORIGINAL NAO!!!!

I don't give a damn about story elements, and when people look for originality in a game, they don't look at the story.

Originally Posted by Abyss Master

TP put old items to new uses. TP introduced new items.

But no original gameplay mechanics. OoT had the whole 3D thing, MM had the whole "multiple personalities" and WW had the sailing.

And even when the items did become original, they were so barely used it wasn't funny.



My point is, we were justified in expecting more from a game which was preceded by OoT, MM and WW.

Originally Posted by Ganonslayer2000

This is what confuses me. IMO WW and TP were pretty much the same when it came to a relatively EASY difficulty for both games. Except the rabid fanboys cry and moan over TP being easy and WW just gets a free pass. Talk about double standards. With that said I'm OK with the rest of your argument.

IMO, WW was at least twice as hard as TP.

Originally Posted by Ganonslayer2000

I admit TP was a bit much on the whole ALTTP/OOT hybrid rehash. But I clearly remember that when WW came out, the whiners and complainers were clamoring for such a game. Then when they got it they still cried and moaned over something they wanted in the first place. And that is exactly why the most diehard of the Zelda fandom will NEVER be satisfied.

The first Zelda I played was OoT, but I was such a little boy back then, and I was scared of all the monsters, so I just left it and decided to watch my dad play. The first I actually finished was WW. The second I finished was TP.

I played WW, and I actually enjoyed it (apart from the triforce hunt). But TP felt like a chore to complete. I actually didn't want to play the game again.

After I finished TP, I went straight onto OoT from the VC (my N64 version went no-save on me). I still enjoyed it more than TP. Right now, I'm completing MM (but I have to finish Okami first).

As you can see, I'm not blinded by much of the Zelda fandom going around. I actually thought OoT was a better game than TP.

Personally, I don't like TP because it's a culmination of what fanboys back when OoT came out wanted out of the next Zelda.

At the time, Final Fantasy VII and Ocarina of Time were being endlessly compared. Eventually, people lost sight of what Zelda was, and wanted everything that made Final Fantasy VII unique to be implemented in Zelda. Epic cutscenes (check), more story (check), a bigger lake (lol check), a bigger world, more horseback riding, more characters, etc.

TP ended up being too much like other games and not enough like Zelda.

You rarely used the dungeon items outside of the dungeon they were in (Spinner, Dominion Rod, Gale Boomerang), one dungeon item you barely used at all (the Ball and Chain), and one dungeon item in particular seemed like a "deus ex machina" for certain situations (The Spinner). And that's very sad, because all of the items were new and awesome, but rarely used.

The game was entirely linear. You had this amazing overworld, but it was mostly linear, and the game held your hand when it came time to show you where to go next.

You obtained so many Heart Containers and Hidden Techniques, but who were the enemies to use them on? Wussies who did 1 heart damage at most and were dispatched with a couple of slashes with the sword. I remember the Iron Knuckles doing 4 hearts damage in OoT and the Darknuts doing 2 hearts damage in WW, but the Darknuts in TP did 1 damage, and would occasionally perform an attack that did 1/4 of a heart.

You gained a new way to roam around and some new mechanics (the Wolf), but was it used for anything much after the Twilight disappeared from the area? A couple of spots where you had to sniff the scent of the next objective (the Pos in the Arbiter's Ground, Yeto while going up to Snowpeak), but that was all.

Twilight Princess had a huge Western theme. The game was completely directed to the American audience after America's feedback to Wind Waker. (Which was bad) Everything from indians to cowboys, sci fi elements (the Twilight) to just about everything OoT and ALttP (America's most loved Zelda games) That was it's aim, and I will admit TP is the "coolest" or most "epic" Zelda game and it's simply fun. I actually had FUN playing Twilight Princess, and I can't say I really had a "Haha! YAY!" Moments while playing TWW.

TP was way harder than TWW. I've seen many game over screens...my friends are a bit sloppy at playing, but in TWW the game over screen is still a mystery to everyone. =/ I died in the beginning of TP 14 times in a row while playing real late on a school night. Not normal gameovers...INSTANT game overs, my persistence was literally killing me. D= Sure the game gets easy really fast, but it is definitely brutal to newcomers.

X-play said it was their favorite or best Zelda ever.

Even Eiji Aonuma points out the the game lacks a deep, strong theme. Instead the game has loads and loads of tiny things that made it really fun. Notice I say fun. I loved the sumo wrestling, the snow boarding, the hidding skills, the horseback fighting, the bomb arrowing, Stallord...it just kills me when I realize other Zelda games don't have those things...because they were simple joys for me.

The Twilight effect was beautiful. One of my favorite scenes in any game ever...is in TP when they crash a rock onto the frozen domain. I Just loved the water effects in the twilight. It was sooo awesome. Comparing bland solid colored paint from TWW to what was seen in TP is just...ah, aggravating. I really do love TP, and it's just sad how fans can't look at it the way it was suppose to be seen.

The game still gives me chills.

Originally Posted by Double A

The first Zelda I played was OoT, but I was such a little boy back then, and I was scared of all the monsters, so I just left it and decided to watch my dad play. The first I actually finished was WW. The second I finished was TP.

I played WW, and I actually enjoyed it (apart from the triforce hunt). But TP felt like a chore to complete. I actually didn't want to play the game again.

After I finished TP, I went straight onto OoT from the VC (my N64 version went no-save on me). I still enjoyed it more than TP. Right now, I'm completing MM (but I have to finish Okami first).

As you can see, I'm not blinded by much of the Zelda fandom going around. I actually thought OoT was a better game than TP.

Even though IMO TP was the better game over WW, there were some things about WW that I liked better than TP. Such as the better characterizations of Link and Ganon. But I preferred riding around on Epona than I did sailing in WW as it was ungodly boring and tedious IMO. To me WW felt more like a chore to complete since I was actually more interested enough with the replay value in TP to complete it 100% on two save files.

In WW after I beat the game, I had no desire whatsoever to find all the treasure maps, heart pieces, or do the stupid figurine sidequest at all. With that said WW was a good Zelda game to play, its just I liked TP better despite its obvious flaws.

When it comes to fanboyism, WW is usually highly overrated and made out to be a lot better than it really was IMO. I also think the fanboys make WAAAY too much of an issue on TP's flaws which IMO are relatively minor and trivial.

Originally Posted by Ganonslayer2000

When it comes to fanboyism, WW is usually highly overrated and made out to be a lot better than it really was IMO. I also think the fanboys make WAAAY too much of an issue on TP's flaws which IMO are relatively minor and trivial.

Really? I seem to recall it being the other way around...

True...both WW and TP have their rabid fanboys. But it seems there is a lot more TP hate threads nowadays than WW hate threads.