What the hell do people have against Twilight Princess?

Wait, who in thier right mind would even imply that horseback riding isn't better in TP? It's improved in every subtle and obvious aspect.

I think what Zaius was saying is that, even though in Wind Waker you're on a boat, you can do more combat while on transportation. For example, you can shoot bombs on the KoRL, but you can't throw bombs from Epona in Twilight Princess. I think you could use pretty much everything but your sword and the grapple hook, but I can't remember.

you can't throw bombs, but you can shoot bomb arrows.
the only thing you can't use on horse back in the ball in chain.

Originally Posted by DrZaius1

You might want to check out my registration date before you start making vast assumptions, kid.

Internet image: I have posted on an internet forum for years. That means I am a clever and intelligent debater who is well respected on the forums.

IRL: Women say I smell like butt fungus. Time to fix my ponytail and adjust my glasses. I work at Costco. I am 28 years old.


MaX oUt ThE bUfFnEsS

Originally Posted by Tigerboi

^ OH SNAP! YOU BETTER LOOK OUT! DIS NIGGA HAS ZU SATUS SON!

I'm ****ing white, kid.

No. You're wrong. Period.

No, I'm not.

If TP was fully intended for the wii (which it wasn't) maybe it would've been different. But IT WASN'T so we may never know. You're just assuming that there wouldn't be a difference based on your obvious lack video game technical knowledge.

My lack of video game technical knowledge is just so obvious.

It's every bit a wii game as resident evil 4 was. The only counterpoint you could come up with was the release times which again doesn't mean crap. It was marketed as a Wii game and that's it. The guts of the games design even when playing the Wii version make it a gamecube game.

Because, you know, it would play so radically different if it were solely designed for the Wii, just like Super Mario Galaxy played so radically different from Supr Mario Sunshine or even Super Mario 64.

Learn the concept of ports.

As soon as you learn the concept of production.

I'm not going to quote the rest of your post because I can sum it up right now.

"GROUND BREAKING, EVOLUTIONARY, CHANGED THE WAY WE PLAYED ZELDA LOLOLOL!"

And once again, you've yet to explain HOW they did. Again, let's sum up what they did:

Deku Link: Generic projectile.

Water skip. useless after about an hour.

Flower float.

Goron Link:

Goron pound.

Roll.

uh....yeah. Doubling as a hammer I guess?

Zora Link:

Swim.

I would say swimming is a big deal but it didn't really add anything except a faster way to move around in the water. The goron roll was FUN, but you never really needed to use it until the game forced you to. same with deku flowers.

I'm not saying the masks weren't cool, but saying they changed the way we played zelda is a little overdoing it considering that all of them HARDLY DID ANYTHING. As Zeldablue777 said it's pretty obvious that they didn't want the transformations to more useful than regular Link. So, they're so groundbreaking that they are less useful than what we already had!

Breaking new ground is different from being revolutionary. Even trying to make the argument that Majora's Mask would have played the same if not a single mask existed is impossible.

Seriously, you get a mask in MM, play around with it for like five minutes, and you've seen everything it has to offer. They have no depth whatsoever.

Yes, it took five minutes to complete the Clock Town prologue, the Southern Swamp, and the Woodfall Temple. It also took only five minutes to complete the Northern Mountains and the Snowhead Temple. We're at ten now, and we're not allowed to go over fifteen, but there's no chance of that, seeing that it only took five minutes to complete the Great Bay Coast, the Pirates' Hideout, and the Great Bay Temple took only another five minutes. Let's hope that Stone Tower and the Moon take much longer.

The wolf from a design standpoint is a little more deep than the MM forms. It's still not nearly as deep as regular Link, but again, something tells me that the transformations aren't meant to be.

It's not deep when it's abandoned midgame.

There's a hilarious little paradox in this statement.

Not really, seeing as older games fused certain elements of the previous games with massive changes.

Originally Posted by Abyss Master

The Zora mask was honestly not a big change at all, at least in my opinion. It's nearly useless in combat (compared to normal Link especially), and it's only really useful for the ability to move underwater, which basically makes it a Zora armor with the ability to use a force field underwater.

It basically makes the Zora Armor the Zora Mask without the ability to move fast or use a force field.

However, I can say one thing for certain. The mask was not a significant evolution in the franchise for me. Not even close.

A significant evolution? Not really, but it was much more significant then the wolf transformation in Twilight Princess.

It really wasn't. It was great being able to swim freely underwater, but I had honestly expected no less from being a Zora.

And it definitely didn't change how the game played for me.

What other Zelda games did you play before Majora's Mask?

Wolf Link becomes more useful as the story goes on, not less. He is required in several dungeons (something that does not happen in the first half of the game), and it's crucial for progress that you can change between wolf and human form. He's even required for a boss fight against Ganondorf.

He doesn't. He's a major point of the game for the first half, but after that he becomes another weapon to use.

The fact that it controls better, it's utilized better and it handles combat better, I'd say it does mean that horseback riding is, objectively, better than in OoT and MM.

I already said that it was more refined in Twilight Princess. That doesn't mean it really meant anything.

Originally Posted by Jeff

Yeah, really, each transformation in MM had maybe one ability that was significantly more useful than anything human Link was shown capable of up to that point in the series. For the most part, their features were just palette swaps of something human Link could do with an item.

Do you know what the definition of a palette swap is?

I hope you understand why I wouldn't take ZU's majority opinion as anything even remotely worthwhile.

I was under the impression that you didn't take any opinion as anything even remotely worthwhile.

You're proving that you were brainwashed by Nintendo's marketing of TP as a Wii game even though it was visualized and produced as a GC game and ended up as a far better production on the Gamecube.

No, I'm proving that a game that switched primary production from one system to another became a more important release on the system it switched production to. That system's main launch title was technically inferior to the vast majority of games on that system's competitor systems.

The word 'rehash' doesn't matter, it's that you downplayed Wolf Link as not being different from MM's masks.

No, I said that the fact that you could transform into another form was not anything new to the franchise.

A lot of RPGs don't match it's story size. As far as action/adventures go, there probably isn't a single story mode of the same length.

He's not meant to be a part of the story as much as he is simply a gameplay element.

Must be why turning into him is a pretty major plotpoint, but considering this is Nintendo we're talking about, not much is intended to be part of the story.

And, since you clearly forgot, he's used for about 1/3 of the Arbiter's Grounds, the beginnings of the Temple of Time, Snowpeak and City in the Sky quests, part of the Palace of Twilight, and parts of Hyrule Castle including Ganon.

The Arbiter's Grounds is part of the first half of the game. The rest involved hopping about. There was a fusion of the two in the desert section of the game, and then it just fell out of use.

Except horseback riding is a lot better in TP anyways.

I said it was more refined multiple times. The debate before you sliced it into six or seven sections was over whether or not horseback riding in Twilight Princess brought anything really big to the franchise.

This, ladies and gentleman, is what ZU is all about.

Originally Posted by DrZaius1

I'm ****ing white, kid.

Nigga

Originally Posted by DrZaius1

Because, you know, it would play so radically different if it were solely designed for the Wii, just like Super Mario Galaxy played so radically different from Supr Mario Sunshine or even Super Mario 64.

For the record, ports of games can often suck. R-Type 3's GBA port was absolute ass.

Originally Posted by DrZaius1

It basically makes the Zora Armor the Zora Mask without the ability to move fast or use a force field.

Yeah, almost word for word what I said.

A significant evolution? Not really, but it was much more significant then the wolf transformation in Twilight Princess.

Even comparing them, I don't really see one as being very superior to the other in that regard. But in terms of story, the wolf felt more significant. That's most certainly only my opinion, though.

What other Zelda games did you play before Majora's Mask?

This is hardly relevant, but LoZ, AoL, ALttP, OoT, LA and OoA. In that order.

He doesn't. He's a major point of the game for the first half, but after that he becomes another weapon to use.

He's a major point of the story for the first half.

He remains a sentral part of the game for the entire run.

I already said that it was more refined in Twilight Princess. That doesn't mean it really meant anything.

What I quoted said something different. You meant that it wasn't necessarily better, and I pointed out that it actually is. In every way you look at it, it's better than horseback riding done in previous titles.

Originally Posted by DrZaius1

I'm ****ing white, kid.

No, I'm not.

Nehehehehehehe

Well, for one, a personal thng of mine is to call everyone that because doing so based on ethnic background is...kind of racist.

"No I'm not" is the greatest counter point ever. How did YOU ever get looked at as great debater? Btw, i'm two years older than you.

Because, you know, it would play so radically different if it were solely designed for the Wii, just like Super Mario Galaxy played so radically different from Supr Mario Sunshine or even Super Mario 64.

You can't do that.


You can't say they would've made it play the same based on totally different game from a totally different series. That's retarded and get's you no where because it doesn't prove anything. Mario Galaxy was developed by a different group of people.

Breaking new ground is different from being revolutionary. Even trying to make the argument that Majora's Mask would have played the same if not a single mask existed is impossible.

But nobody's making that argument.

Yes, it took five minutes to complete the Clock Town prologue, the Southern Swamp, and the Woodfall Temple. It also took only five minutes to complete the Northern Mountains and the Snowhead Temple. We're at ten now, and we're not allowed to go over fifteen, but there's no chance of that, seeing that it only took five minutes to complete the Great Bay Coast, the Pirates' Hideout, and the Great Bay Temple took only another five minutes. Let's hope that Stone Tower and the Moon take much longer.

I think the comparison someone made to you and double a was about fair. Considering that I said it took you five minutes to see every control option and move the masks were capable of. I said nothing about them serving their purposes.

It's not deep when it's abandoned midgame.

What does how often it's used have to do with how deep it is gameplay wise? For one, it wasnt abandoned mid game because you still needed it later.

Two, what I mean is, the controls, I.E. what's capable of doing, is deeper than any of the indvidual masks.

Not really, seeing as older games fused certain elements of the previous games with massive changes.

Get real. The only "massive change" this series has ever had was going to 3D. The masks were glorified items. You've still yet to fully clarify what they did that was so big.

they didn't change the way Zelda worked, which is pretty much the only way a change can be "massive".

This is getting petty now guys.

I just find it hilarious.

Like he came in boasting about what a great debater he was and calling people Kids. Then went on to do some of the most poor debating ever.

Like, disagreeing with is one thing, I don't have a problem with that. G, you disagreed with me and we still managed to have a good discussion out of it.

What I have a problem with is people who act big pretentious over the internet. But I guess it makes me laugh as well, so whatever.

...I'm just going to say, you can throw bombs from ontop of Epona. =/ You can use any item on Epona why would bombs be any different. You didn't know that because you never tried...so tell me. Why do you care what you can use on transportation if you never use anything anyways?

Do you guys understand what I'm getting at? People complain about things that don't even make sense, things that they don't really care or know about. If you hate TP it's not because it failed to have bomb throwing (even though it did) and it's not because wolves don't play a huge part. You hate TP because you hate it and you can't come up with a good valid point as to why. You're just upset that people liked the game while you didn't. It's your opinion and you shouldn't even bother trying to back it up with pointless comments like "Midna was gey" or "the game didn't use Wolf Link enough" little things like that couldn't POSSIBLY allow you to not enjoy a game. I can't even fathom the idea of people hating over these types of dull things. Just poor arguments all around.

Wolf Link wasn't anything like the mask transformations. MM was for rolling, swimming and spinning. Zora was a boomerang, Goron was a hammer, Deku was a slingshot and FD was the biggoron sword. If wolf Link did all of those things then yes, I'd say that'd be a rip off...but Wolf Link was used for scent finding, ghost hunting, digging and goring things. That's it. =\

Once again, Zeldablue lays down some truth.

Originally posted by DrZaius1
Do you know what the definition of a palette swap is?

I was using it as an exaggeration to make a point that most of the MM transformations don't have unique attributes.

I was under the impression that you didn't take any opinion as anything even remotely worthwhile.

You'd be right.

But that doesn't change how it's laughable that you'd use the ZU population as backing for why you're a good debater.

No, I'm proving that a game that switched primary production from one system to another became a more important release on the system it switched production to. That system's main launch title was technically inferior to the vast majority of games on that system's competitor systems.

Okay...

The same can't be said for the Gamecube version, which got the majority of resources put into it and turned out to be the better product. That's why a lot of us recognize it before the Wii version.

No, I said that the fact that you could transform into another form was not anything new to the franchise.

You also challenged that it wasn't very different from the Masks, which as far as the gameplay goes, you'd be wrong about.

It's got as much content, but the story mode isn't the same length.

Nevermind it's lack of polish.

The Arbiter's Grounds is part of the first half of the game. The rest involved hopping about. There was a fusion of the two in the desert section of the game, and then it just fell out of use.

You're still using for a good deal of time cumulatively.

I said it was more refined multiple times. The debate before you sliced it into six or seven sections was over whether or not horseback riding in Twilight Princess brought anything really big to the franchise.

While it's up in the air, I can definitely see horseback combat being expanded upon in future games.

Originally Posted by Zeldablue777

...I'm just going to say, you can throw bombs from ontop of Epona. =/ You can use any item on Epona why would bombs be any different. You didn't know that because you never tried...so tell me. Why do you care what you can use on transportation if you never use anything anyways?

Sorry I didn't know, because yeah, I never used it. Don't get me wrong though, I was just attempting to clarify something someone else said in their absence. It's still true though that Wind Waker did that stuff first, for what it's worth. Twilight Princess obviously improved by enabling the use of your sword.

Well technically you can glitch your way into using any item on Epona in OoT and MM...but your risking your game file by doing so. It's a game limitation. If it was impossible to attack things while in a boat in TWW...I probably would've gone insane, the game disk would go right out the window.

But really, what amazing gameplay advancements did TWW have that just toppled the other 3D Zeldas? It didn't really have anything at all that actually felt solid and satisfying. You can take an enemy's weapon but then what? It was always less effective then using a normal item. Parry attacks made everything easier and allowed the player to beat the game just by pressing A over and over. I mean I don't mind the system, but it quickly became my least favorite battle engine. I hated the fact that enemies fell down without dying, and they were impossible to hit while they were down or when they were getting up or when they became shocked etc. TP fixed a lot of the gripes I had with TWW's fighting system.

I was just so happy when I realized I could kill enemies that were downed and I could do a "parry" attack without the A button telling me to do so by flashing vividly. OoT introduced combo attacks, targeting, dodging, manual block etc. MM freshened it up with transformations. TP had the wolf and the hidden skills. I'm aware that TWW tried new things, but it was basically OoT with some really flawed mechanics thrown in. The fighting looked amazing, but it just felt so wrong.

Wind Waker didn't really do much different, it was just the style that made that game unique. In Twilight Princess' defence (and also, I have no idea how Double A managed to argue this), the enemy AI is the best to date. They still fall over, but battling some of the enemies was really fun. I especially remember the Temple of Time's enemies being particularly enjoyable, for some reason.

The combos didn't actually work in the n64 games. Enemies had CRAZY amounts of invincibility after getting hit once.

I actually liked the enemies being able to get knocked down. Made certain moves serve different purposes. Like, in OoT every attack made the enemies react the same way, so you just used what what did the most damage.

The Parry was a little flawed, but it wasn't that useful imo. Alot of the times,not using it yielded faster results.

The fighting was so much better than the n64 games in WW but was still flawed. TP ixed all those IMO.

Originally Posted by Potent Col

I will just lose my respect for you for hating a game for its difficulty.

I cannot be bothered to go trough all those places, but this bit caught my eye.

Nice to see you allow people to have an opinion! I will now go lay on my bed and cry all day because a random person on the internet has lost respect because I have an negative opinion on a videogame!

Note: I'm actually someone who did enjoy the game but doesn't like it that much in general.

The downside of having the enemies fall over was that you couldn't attack them when they were down. Not that I particularly felt the need, it's just that it pauses the action since you literally have to wait for them to stand up.

I think it would improve the game if that one A attack where you jump and hit their head failed on specific enemies, so you have to change your strategy. The could have made that shield counter more useful too, since I never felt the need to use it.