Twilight Princess: What was wrong with it, and how to fix it 2.0.

It’s like a sequel, only better.

This paper is the updated and improved version of the previous one that I posted, which you can find (Here don’t forget to add a Link). Again, deals with some issues I had with TP and how I think they could be fixed, as well as adding a few things that would make it better. Keep in mind, this whole thing is completely redundant because the game was already made, ergo, I’m making this so we have something to talk about and so we can give some ideas to the developers…which are in Japan and probably don’t know this forum exists. So yeah.

Anyway, I play the Game Cube version, so there’s lots of mentions of A’s and B’s. Also, this paper is my thoughts + plus some ideas that came in form critics of the previous paper. Thank you guys and gals for helping make this paper. The reason for making this paper was because TP was meant to perfect every aspect of Zelda since OoT rather than innovate it with something new. They failed in my opinion.

On with the show!

Okay in the last paper I decried the lack of stealth mechanics and got lambasted because…well, because I didn’t make it clear enough what I wanted. Let me give you a scenario which shows what I think the mechanics themselves would be good for. *ahem*

Link is going through a dungeon when he walks into a room. On the floor are two moblins, and above is a door and an archer bokogoblin. After quickly dispatching of the two moblins, Link is faced with a problem. He can’t kill the bokogoblin because he doesn’t have the bow and there’s no ladder up.
Quickly circling around the room as he dodges fire arrows, he finds no way up. Frustrated, he exits the room. He starts to look around when beside the room entrance; he sees a series of ledges.
Curious, he climbs the ledges and comes to a hole in the wall just large enough to crawl through. He climbs in and crawls through it to see where it leads. What he finds is…the ledge he couldn’t get up to earlier due to the lack of a ladder. Link quickly disposes of the bokogoblin and heads through the door.

There, does that help? The only reason I wanted the stealth mechanics back (besides the obvious) was so the designers could really revolutionize dungeon design and layout. They could make a serious death labyrinth with mechanics like these but they chose to ignore them and their dungeons suffered for it. (Snow Peak was still cool though).

You wouldn’t have to have stuck to the shadows, really, because Link is a warrior. He ain’t no pansy, friend. And if you think this would get rid of the purpose of locked doors, they could just switch between the two. Oh, and if you’re still not convinced, I have two words for you: Locked. Chest.

Now the next thing I talked about is the sword moves. I completely bashed moves 6-7, suggesting a layout for move six while suggesting that they scrap and replace move seven all-together. I also suggested a slight change to the Helm Splitter, but that’s not important right now.

Number 6: Useless due to charge up time; allows for interruption that stops the move, and taking damage. I don’t like taking damage and it takes too long to pull off. I suggested a different lay-out and mechanic to define this move, like “Press A then Press B in midair to perform the Jump Strike” or something similar to make it more practical to myself. I stand by my suggestion.

Number 7: As I recall, I suggested completely retooling this move by allowing for a range increase of all my sword swings, not just the spin attack. Then call it the sword beam because being called the ‘Great Spin’ wouldn’t be appropriate if your not spinning while using it. If you implement the changes I suggested, call it the Sword-Beam. You can spin if you want, of course and the range would still be increased, but I’ll be swinging my sword and hitting that moblin from six feet away to care.

Here’s a quote from the previous article that I don’t have any changes too make. *ahem*

Number 4: At least I think the Helm Splitter was Number Four...anyway. I said I had something for this and I do. While a perfectly fine move all on it's own, there were a couple things I feel could've been included. For one, simply pressing the 'A' button after performing a Shield Attack is fine, but I think that maybe you should have the option to press 'B' to actually attack while flipping over the enemies heads. That, or press 'A' to preform an additional jump off the enemies heads to get a better start at the people behind them...or you need to retreat because you're out of hearts and potions and you don't want to waste that last Fairy. (Wait, you're out of Faries? Noob!)

Now for something new!

I wish they had refined Link’s swordsmanship a bit more. Like if he had the ability to actually choose where his attacks go for and aim. I mean, I know we have the stabs and the overhead strike (forward and ‘B’ and just plain ‘B’ while L targeting for those of you who don’t know what those are), but I think we could use some actual dueling. Like in the fight against Gannondorf; you needed to hit his chest wound but you couldn’t because he was blocking too well. So you play a little game with him, using the control stick in combination with the attack button to aim your strikes to specific points forcing Gannon to block those specific points until you could get a shot at the bleeding wound. Or maybe you want to attack the enemies feet, so you hold down on the analogue stick and press ‘B’ (or whatever the attack button is).

Actual fencing mechanics would’ve made my day.

Now I wish to discuss AI for those of you that didn’t read the last paper.

The AI in Zelda has always been extremely simple and easy, and I think they could’ve been more challenging, especially in TP, where we were promised a far more difficult experience. Sure, heart containers required five pieces, they had over world enemies but the AI stunk. (The notable exception is Darknuts. Those guys are awesome.) And all enemies in general could’ve done much more damage to make it challenging, required to be skilled by giving enemies the ability to dodge.

Placement is a key factor to the difficulty of encounters. Archers in hard-to-reach areas and opponents that remain unseen until they strike (or you turn around) would have seriously amped the difficulty up. As well as the ones that take cover and are ridiculously accurate with a bow. With that, they should seriously take advantage of the overworld. They barely did it in TP.

And let’s be honest with ourselves: When Link gets the Master Sword, that’s the only way they’ll stand a chance. We kill them far to fast otherwise.

Okay what was next? Oh, yeah. Items. You’ll notice that I advocate a slightly different set of items this time, as well as criticize different flaws in an item.

The first item I have a problem with, as I’ve said before, is the magic armor. I mean, it takes rupees like no tomorrow. I guess it’s for balance, but come on! Equiping and de-equipping it was a hassle only comparable to the Iron Boots in OoT. You’ll notice that instead of suggesting that they get rid of the Armor, I suggest a similar deal with the Iron Boots. Make it an item to equip and not as much as a hassle to equip, and I promise to use it more often than against the Dark Lord Gannon.

The next item I have problems with is the Spinner. Okay, it’s just a whine, but I really wish it could’ve been used A LOT more than just for a few heart pieces after the Arbiters Grounds. I mean, I wanted to go on ROLLER COASTERS with that thing. My solution? Put in Roller Coaster Rails.

Now I shall tell you what items I wish were in the Game! I’ve actually tossed out a few items I wished for last time due to…well, due to them not being the best of ideas.

Here’s one from the last paper.

The first item I wish existed is something I call the 'Oocoo Armor' (working title-not my idea). Here's how I think it should work. *clears throat* "After jumping off an edge of any height, press 'A' to glide. Now that your gliding, you have three 'Wing Icons' below, similar to the Epona Sprint icons. These are your own 'Turbo Icons' in that every time you use them, you gain a tremendous speed boost and full on flight. Otherwise, you just glide. To help prevent puzzle breaking, you would only regain your Wing Icons after spending a few seconds off the ground. While not Turbo-ing, you are simply gliding. Up-down, left-right, the sky is yours to an extent. Also, at anytime, you may draw your sword for a sweeping attack, but when you do, your glide stops." How do you like that? Now imagine the Boss fight with the Dragon with that armor instead of the double-hookshots. Awesome, ain't it? To help compensate for those two, because I have no problem with them, the suit ain't all that maneuverable. Gotta use the Turbo strategically for tight turns.

You’ll notice some slight differences from the actual quote, but the basic purpose is the same.

The reason I wish this armor existed was so the boss fight at the end could be more intense. Think about it, your in your armor gliding and the dragons flying around you and your desperately trying to get close to him (hookshot or otherwise) to land blows on his jewel, but you also need to make sure that you can get back to land if an attack fails. It could’ve very well been the most intense boss fight in the history of gaming, if you think about it.

The second item I want is something of a compromise for me. One, I’m sick of the Bow and Arrow and once suggested the Gun. Fans have said (incorrectly) that Link is in the medieval times and must only use the bow and arrow.

So as an in between, I propose the crossbow to replace the Bow and Arrow (Minus some of the attachments from LCT). I mean, it would show that Hyrule is moving forward, it would be consistent with a certain prior game (LCT). If we can compromise on this, there may be hope for the rabid fans yet.

The Third item I want is the…well, no, I just want an additional feature to the Hookshot. Do you recall the grappling hook from WW? I kinda want a function like that. Like you’d be hanging off the ceiling, and then you can start swinging like your on a rope. Chain, rope…not that much different. Oh, and give us the ability to repel off the wall with our Hookshot, like you can with modern mountaineering equipment. Repelling is fun.

Okay…now some people have heard me complain about the Wolf form in Link. I see it as a cheap rehash of the masks from MM. But that’s not a bad thing…a rehash can be awesome because it’s different but better. The Wolf that’s in TP is not better. It’s different, but not better. The attack button can send you off the edge which is a nightmare when you’re dealing with Poe’s in hard to reach areas (like on the Island of Fortune or something)…and it’s really not all that maneuverable.

What they should’ve done (IMO) is make him into more of a Werewolf than an actual wolf. It would’ve fixed some control issues, made him far more maneuverable. He wouldn’t move while attacking (maybe a little) because he’s swinging his claws around. He still has senses, and you get the sense that Link has truly turned into a monster. And it would make more sense when you appear in Kakariko in Wolf Form because when you do that EVERYONE hides inside. With a Werewolf, that actually makes sense.

Oh, and I suggest making weird black-spike thingy that turns link into a wolf into an actual item. Either ‘X’ or ‘Y’, but when he changes, the change back button is always ‘Y’. ‘X’ for senses, and if you want to dig, you stop over a dig site and press ‘A’ as an action to dig up that tiny chest out of the snow.

The plot. While I have no problem with any of th supporting character, the weird dream the third light spirit shows you, or anything (though I suppose Midna could've been a bit quieter), the main issue is Zant. This was supposed to be his game, but then it was HijackedbyGanon. In that Gannondorf was revealed to be behind the whole thing the whole time. No. Just...just no. Zant was an awesome boss in my opinion, if not a little easy. Make him a little tougher (his AI was one of the rare places were it was positively perfect. Particularly in the sword duel).

I made that quote and I still stand by it. Gannon might’ve had a place in the game, but not as a boss. He completely stole Zant’s thunder, and I thought he was awesome to fight. Though the going through the Castle is, again, a good idea. But I don’t see how it could be fitted into the plot.

Also, I like the Resistance, but they could’ve had a bigger role to play when you’re Storming the Castle, like they’re friends who go through the rooms with you and attack enemies for you. Or they could’ve been handy solving puzzles…I’m still wondering what their expression would’ve been if we changed to a Wolf in front of them.

Okay, I done. Questions? Comments? Your own ideas that I want to hear? Post already!

By the way, URL to other topic is here.

Originally Posted by Fulcon

It’s like a sequel, only better.

This paper is the updated and improved version of the previous one that I posted, which you can find (Here don’t forget to add a Link). Again, deals with some issues I had with TP and how I think they could be fixed, as well as adding a few things that would make it better. Keep in mind, this whole thing is completely redundant because the game was already made, ergo, I’m making this so we have something to talk about and so we can give some ideas to the developers…which are in Japan and probably don’t know this forum exists. So yeah.

Anyway, I play the Game Cube version, so there’s lots of mentions of A’s and B’s. Also, this paper is my thoughts + plus some ideas that came in form critics of the previous paper. Thank you guys and gals for helping make this paper. The reason for making this paper was because TP was meant to perfect every aspect of Zelda since OoT rather than innovate it with something new. They failed in my opinion.

I find this ironic. I mean, yes, it was supposed to be the best Zelda game since OoT, and people were probably expecting it to be "perfect", but why perfect? If it was perfect, there would be nothing else left to add, and therefore the possibility of no new Zelda game. Plus, we have to remember that everyone has a different opinion, and therefore, perfect for one person is not perfect for another. This means they would have to make a personalized copy for every buyer! @__@

So do we really expect any Zelda game to be perfect?

No. At least, we shouldn't.

On with the show!

Okay in the last paper I decried the lack of stealth mechanics and got lambasted because…well, because I didn’t make it clear enough what I wanted. Let me give you a scenario which shows what I think the mechanics themselves would be good for. *ahem*

Link is going through a dungeon when he walks into a room. On the floor are two moblins, and above is a door and an archer bokogoblin. After quickly dispatching of the two moblins, Link is faced with a problem. He can’t kill the bokogoblin because he doesn’t have the bow and there’s no ladder up.
Quickly circling around the room as he dodges fire arrows, he finds no way up. Frustrated, he exits the room. He starts to look around when beside the room entrance; he sees a series of ledges.
Curious, he climbs the ledges and comes to a hole in the wall just large enough to crawl through. He climbs in and crawls through it to see where it leads. What he finds is…the ledge he couldn’t get up to earlier due to the lack of a ladder. Link quickly disposes of the bokogoblin and heads through the door.

And maybe there is a heartpiece or Poe soul even farther beyond the bokogoblin. Who knows? Completing the game 100% just got that much harder, right? And maybe there's a small hole in the ground somewhere along the way, just big enough for Link to squeeze through, which allows him access into a secret room that not only contains a hidden treasure, but also a preview into the next room he'll be headed into, giving him time to come up with a good strategy for whatever is contained there.

And another thing to think about:

Link comes into a room full of monsters, including everyone's favorite tough enemy, the Darknut. There is a single chest past these monsters that contains the dungeon's weapon, which would also make the fight against them easier. He'll have to fight them sooner or later, since their defeat spawns a chest with a key in it, so what does he do? Fight them now, or later? Later, you ask? Well, what if he sneaks past them, careful to stay out of sight, snabs the item in the chest, and fights them off? Wouldn't that be cool? It would also provide a way to sneak past enemies you wouldn't want to otherwise fight, even though sneaking is a lot slower than running.

Just a few thoughts I had on this.

There, does that help? The only reason I wanted the stealth mechanics back (besides the obvious) was so the designers could really revolutionize dungeon design and layout. They could make a serious death labyrinth with mechanics like these but they chose to ignore them and their dungeons suffered for it. (Snow Peak was still cool though).

Arbiter's Grounds was also cool. In my opinion, that is.

But, yeah, they could certainly do a lot with dungeon design with stealth in the game. That's an interesting thought, if nothing else.

You wouldn’t have to have stuck to the shadows, really, because Link is a warrior. He ain’t no pansy, friend. And if you think this would get rid of the purpose of locked doors, they could just switch between the two. Oh, and if you’re still not convinced, I have two words for you: Locked. Chest.

What if in every dungeon, there were locked doors and no keys? Wouldn't that be something? The only lock Link couldn't unlock would, of course, be the boss door, since the boss key is essential.

Now the next thing I talked about is the sword moves. I completely bashed moves 6-7, suggesting a layout for move six while suggesting that they scrap and replace move seven all-together. I also suggested a slight change to the Helm Splitter, but that’s not important right now.

Number 6: Useless due to charge up time; allows for interruption that stops the move, and taking damage. I don’t like taking damage and it takes too long to pull off. I suggested a different lay-out and mechanic to define this move, like “Press A then Press B in midair to perform the Jump Strike” or something similar to make it more practical to myself. I stand by my suggestion.

I stand by this suggestion as well. I harldy, if ever, used the Jump Strike, since it's charge-up time was bad for my general rush-'em-and-bash-'em strategy. With a hundred monsters rushing you at once, you're not really going to stand there and charge a move, are you? No, you're going to use a more effective, easier to pull-off one!

Number 7: As I recall, I suggested completely retooling this move by allowing for a range increase of all my sword swings, not just the spin attack. Then call it the sword beam because being called the ‘Great Spin’ wouldn’t be appropriate if your not spinning while using it. If you implement the changes I suggested, call it the Sword-Beam. You can spin if you want, of course and the range would still be increased, but I’ll be swinging my sword and hitting that moblin from six feet away to care.

Seconded.

For the same reasons as above. Also, I'd like to say that it's not such a bad move, if you're naturally good at pulling off the quick spin attack. However, it becomes useless the minute you're hit. It would be a lot better if this was, at least, changed.

Here’s a quote from the previous article that I don’t have any changes too make. *ahem*

First of all, you are Gannon-banned. But that's not important right now.

Second of all, sword play has never had much leeway in Zelda. And, to be honest, using other systems and their controls made it hard. However, there is the Wii and the Wii-mote to be considered now. I think they should apply new and improved sword techniques in the upcoming Wii Zelda game. It would be seriously cool!

Now I wish to discuss AI for those of you that didn’t read the last paper.

The AI in Zelda has always been extremely simple and easy, and I think they could’ve been more challenging, especially in TP, where we were promised a far more difficult experience. Sure, heart containers required five pieces, they had over world enemies but the AI stunk. (The notable exception is Darknuts. Those guys are awesome.) And all enemies in general could’ve done much more damage to make it challenging, required to be skilled by giving enemies the ability to dodge.

Placement is a key factor to the difficulty of encounters. Archers in hard-to-reach areas and opponents that remain unseen until they strike (or you turn around) would have seriously amped the difficulty up. As well as the ones that take cover and are ridiculously accurate with a bow. With that, they should seriously take advantage of the overworld. They barely did it in TP.

And let’s be honest with ourselves: When Link gets the Master Sword, that’s the only way they’ll stand a chance. We kill them far to fast otherwise.

I agree with this.

Enemies in the beginning of the game are easy for a reason, and should remain that way. You're new to the game/coming back to it after a break/whatever, and the beginning enemies are what help break you into your good sword skill.

However, easy enemies get old after about the second dungeon. By then, you're ready for more of a challenge. TP did not do a good job of providing this until the Darknuts. Simple game rules usually are: the deeper into the game, the tougher the enemies. This should apply in all video games.

And don't get me started on the bosses! :X

Okay what was next? Oh, yeah. Items. You’ll notice that I advocate a slightly different set of items this time, as well as criticize different flaws in an item.

The first item I have a problem with, as I’ve said before, is the magic armor. I mean, it takes rupees like no tomorrow. I guess it’s for balance, but come on! Equiping and de-equipping it was a hassle only comparable to the Iron Boots in OoT. You’ll notice that instead of suggesting that they get rid of the Armor, I suggest a similar deal with the Iron Boots. Make it an item to equip and not as much as a hassle to equip, and I promise to use it more often than against the Dark Lord Gannon.

This!

I personally liked the Magic Armor. It was useful against enemies, as well as for emptying your wallet when you couldn't get that rupee in that chest! However, they treated it like an armor upgrade, rather than an item, which is a no-no. A hassle to equip/unequip, and so, it becomes less desirable to use. They fix this, and possibly the rate at which it eats your money, and it would be quite useful.

The next item I have problems with is the Spinner. Okay, it’s just a whine, but I really wish it could’ve been used A LOT more than just for a few heart pieces after the Arbiters Grounds. I mean, I wanted to go on ROLLER COASTERS with that thing. My solution? Put in Roller Coaster Rails.

I don't know about roller coasters, but it could have been used more! It had a lot of promise, and they put it in there a few select times after the Arbiter's Grounds dungeon! If they had put in railings for things in every other dungeon, even if just once or twice in each one, it would have been a lot cooler!

Now I shall tell you what items I wish were in the Game! I’ve actually tossed out a few items I wished for last time due to…well, due to them not being the best of ideas.

Here’s one from the last paper.



You’ll notice some slight differences from the actual quote, but the basic purpose is the same.

The reason I wish this armor existed was so the boss fight at the end could be more intense. Think about it, your in your armor gliding and the dragons flying around you and your desperately trying to get close to him (hookshot or otherwise) to land blows on his jewel, but you also need to make sure that you can get back to land if an attack fails. It could’ve very well been the most intense boss fight in the history of gaming, if you think about it.

I'd like to say that this armor's name (susceptible to change) is the Ooccoo Armor. It's a gliding armor, basically. And eveything said here is the truth. I can't be the only one who was extremely disappointed to find out that the item in the City in the Sky was another HOOKSHOT! I mean, come on! Wasn't one enough? I always thought so...

So, yeah, this armor idea is rough, but I think it's a good starting idea.

One thing I thought about is not making it an armor. I mean, how weird would that be? Armor makes you fly now?! Plus, what would it look like? What if instead, the item was more like an item? What if he used Ooccoo wings, or something like them? Or dragon wings, because it'd make him look cool! Gliding abilities are limited:

Ride faster with the wind, and slower against. Tilt down to go up, and vice-versa. Can only glide for a limited amount of time before dropping, then must wait for them to become available again. This could be measured with some sort of meter.

The second item I want is something of a compromise for me. One, I’m sick of the Bow and Arrow and once suggested the Gun. Fans have said (incorrectly) that Link is in the medieval times and must only use the bow and arrow.

So as an in between, I propose the crossbow to replace the Bow and Arrow (Minus some of the attachments from LCT). I mean, it would show that Hyrule is moving forward, it would be consistent with a certain prior game (LCT). If we can compromise on this, there may be hope for the rabid fans yet.

Crossbow idea is good. Gun idea is going a bit far. Like I said, it's set more in the medieval times than anything else. It gives the sensation of old-style bow and sword fights, and not gun fights.

Plus the gun would be extremely cheap. Can anyone say one-hit KO? That's basically what guns do. Plus, it would suddenly become an old western with all the gun showdowns, and not enough sword fight strategy.

Guns = no real strategy involved. It's a fact of life. =/

However, the crossbow is a good idea, and I say stick with it. It's not a gun, it's an improved bow and arrow.

The Third item I want is the…well, no, I just want an additional feature to the Hookshot. Do you recall the grappling hook from WW? I kinda want a function like that. Like you’d be hanging off the ceiling, and then you can start swinging like your on a rope. Chain, rope…not that much different. Oh, and give us the ability to repel off the wall with our Hookshot, like you can with modern mountaineering equipment. Repelling is fun.

If this was added in the next game, I'd name myself Indiana Jones!

This isn't a bad idea. It really isn't.

Okay…now some people have heard me complain about the Wolf form in Link. I see it as a cheap rehash of the masks from MM. But that’s not a bad thing…a rehash can be awesome because it’s different but better. The Wolf that’s in TP is not better. It’s different, but not better. The attack button can send you off the edge which is a nightmare when you’re dealing with Poe’s in hard to reach areas (like on the Island of Fortune or something)…and it’s really not all that maneuverable.

What they should’ve done (IMO) is make him into more of a Werewolf than an actual wolf. It would’ve fixed some control issues, made him far more maneuverable. He wouldn’t move while attacking (maybe a little) because he’s swinging his claws around. He still has senses, and you get the sense that Link has truly turned into a monster. And it would make more sense when you appear in Kakariko in Wolf Form because when you do that EVERYONE hides inside. With a Werewolf, that actually makes sense.

Oh, and I suggest making weird black-spike thingy that turns link into a wolf into an actual item. Either ‘X’ or ‘Y’, but when he changes, the change back button is always ‘Y’. ‘X’ for senses, and if you want to dig, you stop over a dig site and press ‘A’ as an action to dig up that tiny chest out of the snow.

This X a million! *Drools*

Werewolf Link is the best idea since sliced bread! At least, in my opinion. As much as I liked Wolf Link (and I'm one of those who actually did), this idea > that one. Am I right?

I made that quote and I still stand by it. Gannon might’ve had a place in the game, but not as a boss. He completely stole Zant’s thunder, and I thought he was awesome to fight. Though the going through the Castle is, again, a good idea. But I don’t see how it could be fitted into the plot.

If Zant took over the castle instead of Ganondorf. In fact, take Ganondorf out of the game entirely! He was tacked-on and just there to be there, so it seemed!

So imagine this:

You defeat Zant in the Twilight Realm. He escapes alive. You chase him, but Zant was thinking ahead: he sent his monster minions to stop you dead in your tracks. You defeat them, but then a huge guardian steps in and takes you captive. *Enter awesome dungeon here with huge guardian being the boss*

You then escape back to the light world and find out that Zant has taken over Hyrule Castle!

There you go! It sounds like a good idea to me!

Also, I like the Resistance, but they could’ve had a bigger role to play when you’re Storming the Castle, like they’re friends who go through the rooms with you and attack enemies for you. Or they could’ve been handy solving puzzles…I’m still wondering what their expression would’ve been if we changed to a Wolf in front of them.

Okay, I done. Questions? Comments? Your own ideas that I want to hear? Post already!

The group that involved Russl (whatever they were called) should have gone with you. Large swarms of monsters that Link couldn't possibly beat all by himself would come around the corner, and epic fights would follow! It's a good idea!

One thing I'd like to add is about the boss fights. They were too easy, and lacked strategy. Difficulty levels was mentioned, and I agree with this whole-heartedly. Easy for beginners, Normal for those who still aren't masters, and Hard for the hard-core gamers. Monster toughness would be effected, as would bosses. And puzzles even! That would be awesome!

And there's probably something I'm forgetting, but we'll leave it at this for now. Post away, guys!

By the way, URL to other topic is here.

Thank you for that. Now let's begin.

I find this ironic. I mean, yes, it was supposed to be the best Zelda game since OoT, and people were probably expecting it to be "perfect", but why perfect? If it was perfect, there would be nothing else left to add, and therefore the possibility of no new Zelda game. Plus, we have to remember that everyone has a different opinion, and therefore, perfect for one person is not perfect for another. This means they would have to make a personalized copy for every buyer! @__@

So do we really expect any Zelda game to be perfect?

No. At least, we shouldn't.

Well, if it was perfect, then they wouldn't have to worry about perfecting these elements in the next game, and could instead concentrate on innovating a new mechanic like Zelda is famous for.

Incidentally, I meant perfect in a general sense, rather then 'perfect for everyone'. That is asking to much. Perfect in that it pleases as much people as it possibly can.

That's what I meant. Because TP was actually close enough to perfect for some people, but not for others. I was posting ideas on how to get those people into the circle.

And maybe there is a heartpiece or Poe soul even farther beyond the bokogoblin. Who knows? Completing the game 100% just got that much harder, right? And maybe there's a small hole in the ground somewhere along the way, just big enough for Link to squeeze through, which allows him access into a secret room that not only contains a hidden treasure, but also a preview into the next room he'll be headed into, giving him time to come up with a good strategy for whatever is contained there.

And another thing to think about:

Link comes into a room full of monsters, including everyone's favorite tough enemy, the Darknut. There is a single chest past these monsters that contains the dungeon's weapon, which would also make the fight against them easier. He'll have to fight them sooner or later, since their defeat spawns a chest with a key in it, so what does he do? Fight them now, or later? Later, you ask? Well, what if he sneaks past them, careful to stay out of sight, snabs the item in the chest, and fights them off? Wouldn't that be cool? It would also provide a way to sneak past enemies you wouldn't want to otherwise fight, even though sneaking is a lot slower than running.

Just a few thoughts I had on this.

Exactly. I want stealth for adventuring purposes rather than for 'stealth levels'. I want them for providing options to the player!

What if in every dungeon, there were locked doors and no keys? Wouldn't that be something? The only lock Link couldn't unlock would, of course, be the boss door, since the boss key is essential.

Are you suggesting that we give Link the ability to pick the locks on the doors? That might be a good idea. Might be.

Though I also think that keys should be on some monsters belts rather than in chests. Would make a bit more sense that way. Yes. Boss key is essential.

I stand by this suggestion as well. I harldy, if ever, used the Jump Strike, since it's charge-up time was bad for my general rush-'em-and-bash-'em strategy. With a hundred monsters rushing you at once, you're not really going to stand there and charge a move, are you? No, you're going to use a more effective, easier to pull-off one!

Seconded.

For the same reasons as above. Also, I'd like to say that it's not such a bad move, if you're naturally good at pulling off the quick spin attack. However, it becomes useless the minute you're hit. It would be a lot better if this was, at least, changed.

Yay, I convinced someone!

And I agree with the line of reasoning you added with the spin attack.

First of all, you are Gannon-banned. But that's not important right now.

Second of all, sword play has never had much leeway in Zelda. And, to be honest, using other systems and their controls made it hard. However, there is the Wii and the Wii-mote to be considered now. I think they should apply new and improved sword techniques in the upcoming Wii Zelda game. It would be seriously cool!

I'm Gannon-banned? What? Explain, please.

Well, I actually took my cues on this from Legend of Link where sword fighting shielded enemies was a serious challenge. I liked the idea, and presented how I thought we could go about it in Zelda. I bet I could do it with the NGC controller but the Wii one makes a tad more sense, I think.

I'd like to say that this armor's name (susceptible to change) is the Ooccoo Armor. It's a gliding armor, basically. And eveything said here is the truth. I can't be the only one who was extremely disappointed to find out that the item in the City in the Sky was another HOOKSHOT! I mean, come on! Wasn't one enough? I always thought so...

So, yeah, this armor idea is rough, but I think it's a good starting idea.

One thing I thought about is not making it an armor. I mean, how weird would that be? Armor makes you fly now?! Plus, what would it look like? What if instead, the item was more like an item? What if he used Ooccoo wings, or something like them? Or dragon wings, because it'd make him look cool! Gliding abilities are limited:

Ride faster with the wind, and slower against. Tilt down to go up, and vice-versa. Can only glide for a limited amount of time before dropping, then must wait for them to become available again. This could be measured with some sort of meter.

I actually skipped down to this one because it's the only one I have to say anything on about the matter.

#1: I never understood why I couldn't have simply given the first hookshot to Barnes or whoever, pay him to make another and then come back in a few days. It would've made a bit more sense and it've been a tad less dissapointing than to find it as so.

#2: You raise a point. Personally, I would've thought that the armor would be Ooccoo themed, with the color and stuff, though simply being a pair of wings is a tad too simple, I think. Why not include a tail or something that fits on your legs? Well, Link seems to have bird wings in my head because he uses hawks to complete puzzles in the game.

#3: I like the wind idea, but it would be a little frustrating if you can't tell what direction the wind is going in and you can't change it. That's why I left it out of the draft and instead included the diving mechanics. Incidentally, why would we want to have the wings only work for a specific amount of time? If you're in the middle of the boss fight with the dragon, that would be a nightmare and people would start hating that boss because he would be so difficult (theres a difference between making something harder and making it impossible). That's why I suggested the turbo mechanic, though having it only regenerate turbo points on the ground is a bit flawed. How about they come back after a long while?

Crossbow idea is good. Gun idea is going a bit far. Like I said, it's set more in the medieval times than anything else. It gives the sensation of old-style bow and sword fights, and not gun fights.

Plus the gun would be extremely cheap. Can anyone say one-hit KO? That's basically what guns do. Plus, it would suddenly become an old western with all the gun showdowns, and not enough sword fight strategy.

Guns = no real strategy involved. It's a fact of life. =/

However, the crossbow is a good idea, and I say stick with it. It's not a gun, it's an improved bow and arrow.

#1Regarding the nature of who Link is, a timeless Avatar of Courage, a modern-day Zelda is, story-wise anyway, completely feasible.

#2: Theoretically, a game programmer could make the gun do the exact amount of damage than the Bow and Arrow, or even less damage. It's all about the programming when it comes to game balance.

#3: No strategy? I disagree and will fight to an inch of my life over it. Armor is a big factor in that, and so is cover.

#4:...I agree with you.

This X a million! *Drools*

Werewolf Link is the best idea since sliced bread! At least, in my opinion. As much as I liked Wolf Link (and I'm one of those who actually did), this idea > that one. Am I right?

And it's all thanks to you!

If Zant took over the castle instead of Ganondorf. In fact, take Ganondorf out of the game entirely! He was tacked-on and just there to be there, so it seemed!

So imagine this:

You defeat Zant in the Twilight Realm. He escapes alive. You chase him, but Zant was thinking ahead: he sent his monster minions to stop you dead in your tracks. You defeat them, but then a huge guardian steps in and takes you captive. *Enter awesome dungeon here with huge guardian being the boss*

You then escape back to the light world and find out that Zant has taken over Hyrule Castle!

There you go! It sounds like a good idea to me!

This is a better idea, but I'm not entirely happy with it. I dunno...Didn't Zant technically already have control over Hyrule castle?

But the dungeon escape would be good if it wasn't a super over reliance on the stealth mechanics throughout. Remember, that's why fans hate those mechanics: They were used far to much...though using them more would be a priority, at least until we get our sword back.

The group that involved Russl (whatever they were called) should have gone with you. Large swarms of monsters that Link couldn't possibly beat all by himself would come around the corner, and epic fights would follow! It's a good idea!

I'm in full agreement, though the reason for this was because the guys at Nintendo didn't want to program their AI. Heck, I think they shoud've gone with you for all the dungeons. That could've been an altering factor with dungeon puzzles and I bet that Shad would've loved to see the City in the Sky.

One thing I'd like to add is about the boss fights. They were too easy, and lacked strategy. Difficulty levels was mentioned, and I agree with this whole-heartedly. Easy for beginners, Normal for those who still aren't masters, and Hard for the hard-core gamers. Monster toughness would be effected, as would bosses. And puzzles even! That would be awesome!

I agree 100%. Completely and totally, though that might be a bit of work. Ah, who knows...can anyone say TP: Master Quest?

And that's all I have to say.

Originally Posted by Fulcon

Well, if it was perfect, then they wouldn't have to worry about perfecting these elements in the next game, and could instead concentrate on innovating a new mechanic like Zelda is famous for.

Incidentally, I meant perfect in a general sense, rather then 'perfect for everyone'. That is asking to much. Perfect in that it pleases as much people as it possibly can.

That's what I meant. Because TP was actually close enough to perfect for some people, but not for others. I was posting ideas on how to get those people into the circle.

Yes. I'd also like to add here that no game is perfect. In fact, nothing is perfect, and never will be. But they could have certainly done a lot of things better with this game.

Are you suggesting that we give Link the ability to pick the locks on the doors? That might be a good idea. Might be.

Though I also think that keys should be on some monsters belts rather than in chests. Would make a bit more sense that way. Yes. Boss key is essential.

Heh, I don't know. I was thinking on my feet, and thought it sounded somewhat cool at the time. It might work, but I don't know. It also might be bad.

Yes to your idea about keys being on monsters' belts. The Boss Key will have to be on the miniboss' belt. It's always essential!

Gannon-banned? What? Explain, please.

Gannon-banned

Well, I actually took my cues on this from Legend of Link where sword fighting shielded enemies was a serious challenge. I liked the idea, and presented how I thought we could go about it in Zelda. I bet I could do it with the NGC controller but the Wii one makes a tad more sense, I think.

It should be done on the Wii one, too! I've always wanted to engage in combat with the enemy with a realistic feel using the Wii remote!

#1: I never understood why I couldn't have simply given the first hookshot to Barnes or whoever, pay him to make another and then come back in a few days. It would've made a bit more sense and it've been a tad less dissapointing than to find it as so.

Certainly! Then the dungeon item could have been a lot more awesome!

#2: You raise a point. Personally, I would've thought that the armor would be Ooccoo themed, with the color and stuff, though simply being a pair of wings is a tad too simple, I think. Why not include a tail or something that fits on your legs? Well, Link seems to have bird wings in my head because he uses hawks to complete puzzles in the game.

A tail would be cool. Bird wings isn't a bad idea, but lacks more in the tail area. Birds have tails, yes, just not much of them.

#3: I like the wind idea, but it would be a little frustrating if you can't tell what direction the wind is going in and you can't change it. That's why I left it out of the draft and instead included the diving mechanics. Incidentally, why would we want to have the wings only work for a specific amount of time? If you're in the middle of the boss fight with the dragon, that would be a nightmare and people would start hating that boss because he would be so difficult (theres a difference between making something harder and making it impossible). That's why I suggested the turbo mechanic, though having it only regenerate turbo points on the ground is a bit flawed. How about they come back after a long while?

Imagine the wind changing every few seconds or so. It would add another element to the boss fight, in my opinion, as well as use of it in other areas.

And I only say a limited time because it would otherwise be considered flying. And maybe he just always angles slightly down until he hits the ground, I dunno, just as long as it's not flying, because that would just be cheap. Turbo isn't a bad idea, either. Though, I think it would work better if they did come back once on the ground, and came back after some amount of time. Just not a long one.

#1Regarding the nature of who Link is, a timeless Avatar of Courage, a modern-day Zelda is, story-wise anyway, completely feasible.

Thus ending one of Zelda's elements as we know it! And might I say, it's quite a good one. Part of what makes Zelda so different from other games, for sure.

#2: Theoretically, a game programmer could make the gun do the exact amount of damage than the Bow and Arrow, or even less damage. It's all about the programming when it comes to game balance.

Yes, but there are loads of terrible flaws with this idea, too! Once a gun is introduced in the game, the sword, and therefore strategy, become pointless. You just point and shoot at every enemy, and your problem is solved. The only thing stopping you from completely conquering everything would be armored enemies, but once you hack the armor away, bang!, and they're dead.

I find it ironic that you even suggest a gun, because you want enemies to be harder! If all you have to do is point and shoot until they're dead, well, then there goes that! It becomes just another shooting game at that point.

#3: No strategy? I disagree and will fight to an inch of my life over it. Armor is a big factor in that, and so is cover.

Cover? Once a gun is shot, your enemy is basically done for, my friend. As for armor, hack it away, and then it's the same thing.

This is a better idea, but I'm not entirely happy with it. I dunno...Didn't Zant technically already have control over Hyrule castle?

I don't know if he did. Ganondorf did, but Zant was just his puppet. =/

But the dungeon escape would be good if it wasn't a super over reliance on the stealth mechanics throughout. Remember, that's why fans hate those mechanics: They were used far to much...though using them more would be a priority, at least until we get our sword back.

What? It has to use stealth mechanics? Not necessarily! I'm not suggesting another Forsaken Fortress here, just a dungeon to hack your way out of. No over-use of stealth mechanics, or anything else for that matter. Just another dungeon.

I'm in full agreement, though the reason for this was because the guys at Nintendo didn't want to program their AI. Heck, I think they shoud've gone with you for all the dungeons. That could've been an altering factor with dungeon puzzles and I bet that Shad would've loved to see the City in the Sky.

I'll bet Shad would have loved that too!

I agree 100%. Completely and totally, though that might be a bit of work. Ah, who knows...can anyone say TP: Master Quest?

We can all hope for this.

Originally Posted by LinkdOOd110

Heh, I don't know. I was thinking on my feet, and thought it sounded somewhat cool at the time. It might work, but I don't know. It also might be bad.

No, no. We should always be on the lookout for new ideas. So it could be a good one, or a bad one, but we won't know unless we try.

Yes to your idea about keys being on monsters' belts. The Boss Key will have to be on the miniboss' belt. It's always essential!

Thus altering the role of the mini-boss. I like it.

Gannon-banned

Ah, yes. That. That site influenced a lot of my thinking, by the way.

It should be done on the Wii one, too! I've always wanted to engage in combat with the enemy with a realistic feel using the Wii remote!

Dang right!

Certainly! Then the dungeon item could have been a lot more awesome!


A tail would be cool. Bird wings isn't a bad idea, but lacks more in the tail area. Birds have tails, yes, just not much of them.

Yeah, but birds use the tail to steer. Ergo, why it's nessescary.

Imagine the wind changing every few seconds or so. It would add another element to the boss fight, in my opinion, as well as use of it in other areas.

And I only say a limited time because it would otherwise be considered flying. And maybe he just always angles slightly down until he hits the ground, I dunno, just as long as it's not flying, because that would just be cheap. Turbo isn't a bad idea, either. Though, I think it would work better if they did come back once on the ground, and came back after some amount of time. Just not a long one.

Cheap? Depends on the area. The wind changing every few seconds might make the Wings useless due to constant speed altering. I suppose we could have the wings stop working, but it has to be a long time...enough time to make it back to land to recharge the bar if nessescary. Like it lasts about five minutes or so.

Thus ending one of Zelda's elements as we know it! And might I say, it's quite a good one. Part of what makes Zelda so different from other games, for sure.

And possibly replacing it with an even better one! A game that constantly changes eras would allow for a great degree of flexability on Nintendo's part. One game being a western themed, then a roman empire themed, then a future themed, then an ice age themed (okay that last one is more of a crack! era, but still...) And besides, they could easily come back to medieval when ever they feel like it, they just wouldn't be constrained. Besides, it would allow for a large degree of story. All era's have serious potential for epicness, it's just the fantasy era that's been majorly fleshed out. That and sci-fi if you look at Star Wars.

Yes, but there are loads of terrible flaws with this idea, too! Once a gun is introduced in the game, the sword, and therefore strategy, become pointless. You just point and shoot at every enemy, and your problem is solved. The only thing stopping you from completely conquering everything would be armored enemies, but once you hack the armor away, bang!, and they're dead.

Isn't this the same deal with the Bow and Arrow? But wait! The game makers balanced it out! They could do the same with the Gun. I don't see the problem.

I find it ironic that you even suggest a gun, because you want enemies to be harder! If all you have to do is point and shoot until they're dead, well, then there goes that! It becomes just another shooting game at that point.

Again, it could be balanced out. Take two to three shots to kill enemies as opposed to one. Link wouldn't be using an uzi, that would be taking it too far (thats more like something for a moblin or something). More like a semi-automatic, or a bolt action rifle.

Cover? Once a gun is shot, your enemy is basically done for, my friend. As for armor, hack it away, and then it's the same thing.

What, your telling me that bullets can't be stopped by a thick metal sheet between you and them? Again, balance it so the gun would take two oar three shots to kill instead of one by reducing the amount of damage it does, and leave the sword the way it was.

I don't know if he did. Ganondorf did, but Zant was just his puppet. =/

Hmmm...I call for explanation! NINTENDO, I CALL YOU TO THE STAND.

What? It has to use stealth mechanics? Not necessarily! I'm not suggesting another Forsaken Fortress here, just a dungeon to hack your way out of. No over-use of stealth mechanics, or anything else for that matter. Just another dungeon.

It is what you insinuated. But now that you've explained what you've meant, I happily comply!

I'll bet Shad would have loved that too!

That is right!

We can all hope for this.

Yes we can, LinkdOOd110. Yes we can.

Originally Posted by Fulcon

No, no. We should always be on the lookout for new ideas. So it could be a good one, or a bad one, but we won't know unless we try.

Always hard to tell whether an idea is good or bad until it happens. But, the lock-picking idea sounds a bit rogue-ish, which Link isn't.

Thus altering the role of the mini-boss. I like it.

Yeah, I guess so. To me, it just makes more sense. :3

Ah, yes. That. That site influenced a lot of my thinking, by the way.

This I did not know. Do explain.

Yeah, but birds use the tail to steer. Ergo, why it's nessescary.

Yes, that is very true. However, I'd have an issue if the tail didn't at least look kewl. So, if we are to use the bird idea, I think a phoenix!

--- All stuff on guns is cut out due to me retiring that debate. ----

Hmmm...I call for explanation! NINTENDO, I CALL YOU TO THE STAND.

Darn it! If only Nintendo were here!

It is what you insinuated. But now that you've explained what you've meant, I happily comply!

I probably should have made that a little clearer.

Yes we can, LinkdOOd110. Yes we can.

And darn, where are all the other people? We're the only two carrying this thread on. XD

We scared them off with our intensive debates on logic.

Okay, about Gannonbanned. When I first encountered that site, I was surfing TvTropes. Then I found it, and I read through the whole thing. The first few sections came off as trollish but funny...but the latter ones, specifically the one on the CD-i games made sense. People shouldn't trash on games they haven't played yet, and I connected that to the Future Zelda game. I mean, if they've never played a Future Zelda, how do they know it wouldn't be Zelda? How do they know it wouldn't feel right?

It made me start to think like a revolutionairy. It's why I think a Future Zelda could, at least, be worth a try. Continuing on this line of thought, I rationalized that since there are multiple Links, it's not to much of a stretch to say that one could be born in the future or in another world entirely.

Incidentally, that site considers The Adventure of Link to be the greastest Zelda game of all time.